The Gate

Good morning

What arises is a willingness to be open that this is true. And the intention to be open to whatever it takes to experience this for myself. My direct experience still seems separate (when there are I-thoughts that have not been dis-identified with) punctuated with moments of quiet and a slight dissolution of a self.

A self does not exist in the first place, there is nothing to be dissolved. It is like like shadow and light or ignorance and knowing. When the light or knowing shines on shadow or ignorance, where goes the shadow or ignorance ?

There are moments where the "I" fades but the sense of being separate is still there. The "it has never been" seems the most difficult to grasp because the feeling of time seems quite real.

Can you describe what is this "I" fading ?

About the sense of being separate : where is it located in the body ?

About the time :

Is there yesterday other than in thoughts ?
Is there tomorrow other then in thoughts ?

Best to you

Warissem

A self does not exist in the first place, there is nothing to be dissolved. It is like like shadow and light or ignorance and knowing. When the light or knowing shines on shadow or ignorance, where goes the shadow or ignorance ?

Shadow and light, ignorance and knowing, makes sense. You are right, when light or knowing shines on shadow or ignorance, shadow and ignorance become or are known to have always been the light/knowing. What constituted shadow/ignorance may still be noticeable but is no longer taken to be something other than light/knowing.

Can you describe what is this "I" fading ?

I suppose, when there are moments of not believing the "I narrative", or when there is no "I narrative" there is no "I". But "I" thoughts are still believed at times to be true, (by the next thought), and so it can feel as if there is an "I" going in and out of believing itself.

Is there yesterday other than in thoughts ?
Is there tomorrow other then in thoughts ?

No. That was easy to understand when you put it that way :)

Hi

I suppose, when there are moments of not believing the "I narrative", or when there is no "I narrative" there is no "I". But "I" thoughts are still believed at times to be true, (by the next thought), and so it can feel as if there is an "I" going in and out of believing itself.

Reconsider my questions in the light of Looking at direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (sensations).

Waiting for your answers after looking/

Warissem

Reconsider my questions in the light of Looking at direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (sensations). Can you describe what is this "I" fading ?

In the direct experience of sensation, sensation is all there is. There is no I. There is no I that fades or 'feels' like it is there. When attention is on sight, then sight is all that is experienced. Attention could be on all sight and sound, and sight and sound is all that is. No "I" can be found. Same for time. Time is only thought-constructed, and when sensations are directly experienced there is no sense or knowledge of 'time' passing, just awareness moving spontaneously.

SJ

Hi

All right, that's great to read your post. Now, what is missing ?
is the fear gone ?
Are you still seeking ?
If so, what do you expect to happen ?
Are there doubts about the non existence of a separate self ?
What has changed from the beginning of this dialog ?

Give answers to each question separately.

Best wishes

Warissem

Now, what is missing ?

I'm not entirely certain... other than "I know" I'm not there yet as in finished disidentifying/disbelieving thoughts/beliefs or that there is still something to be done (though I conceptually understand that it is always here, but it is not currently realized or there hasn't been the awakening or whatever it is called). So "I" continue to ask for guidance (from the universe, god, the mysterious unknown, what-have-you) to be made aware of what needs to be done or undone so that awakening can be realized. Surrender and intention - that is what "I" aim for.

is the fear gone ?

Yes, almost all of it. Occasionally a small amount of fear arises, but nothing that is not easily identified as thought and also not trying to push it away (which is something I've noticed I do with 'negative' emotions).

Are you still seeking ?

Yes. "I"/thoughts are at a point where now that the fear has almost gone, and there is a renewed sense of wanting to examine/disbelieve thoughts and belief structures, it seems there is still more to do. Inherently I know there is nothing to do, that what I seek is always here with me, but I still know I am not somehow me of thought-identification. So I continue to work on catching thoughts ("that is a thought" but I blah blah blah... "that is a thought"), as well as working on looking at beliefs - there seem to be hidden beliefs underneath the apparent belief. Such as "I don't like that person" and "I don't want to feel/think this" - those are thoughts, but why does it keep repeating and why is it still believed? I ask, what else do I need to disbelieve here that I'm not seeing initially. So mainly working on stuck patterns. Keep returning to awareness. Keep

If so, what do you expect to happen ?

I suppose I expect to really 'know' that I am not a separate self. Conceptually I understand, but it is not my continuous direct experience. I am not expecting to not have uncomfortable or painful experiences, I just don't want to resist my reality and I (thought-beliefs) continue to do this.

Are there doubts about the non existence of a separate self ?

Initially no, but I sense there is lingering doubt lurking "I can't do this" (thought). "I'm not getting something." (thought) "What am I missing?" (thought).

What has changed from the beginning of this dialog ?

When the thought stream is noticed, I recognize it and also recognize if "I" have been fighting it/thinking it is wrong, and "I" return to the present. What sound is heard, what shapes are seen, sensation felt? If something difficult appears (uncomfortable thoughts/emotions/triggers), "I" ask "what is really going on?" "what needs to be disbelieved or not resisted?". There is a more relaxed feeling with what arises.

Good morning

I suppose I expect to really 'know' that I am not a separate self. Conceptually I understand, but it is not my continuous direct experience.

It is the continuous direct experience to "all of us" but it is known as such or "believed" otherwise. What has to be done is not to change the experience, but to change the way it is seen. The awakening is to see directly without the filters of beliefs. The goal of this dialog is to make you SEE that "the existence of a person, a separate self" is not true, it is a belief. We do this through LOOKING at direct experience. You cannot dismantle a belief with thoughts, it needs looking and seeing.

I am not expecting to not have uncomfortable or painful experiences, I just don't want to resist my reality and I (thought-beliefs) continue to do this.

There is no I, no you to do things. Do you see that ? LOOK.

Warissem

I will post a reply for you tomorrow. I have spent the time looking and inquiring but will take some more time to look at what you are saying before responding.
SJ

Good evening

Take the time needed for it

Warissem

Hi Warissem,

What has to be done is not to change the experience, but to change the way it is seen. The awakening is to see directly without the filters of beliefs. The goal of this dialog is to make you SEE that "the existence of a person, a separate self" is not true, it is a belief. We do this through LOOKING at direct experience. You cannot dismantle a belief with thoughts, it needs looking and seeing.

The past few days, there is a fluctuation between seeing directly and only being the awareness of sensation, to then believing thoughts are me (perhaps triggered by a person I have had unpleasant exchanges with before). Then the thought-belief identification will be noticed and there is a return to now/sensation/noticing there was thought-identification, also knowing that continuous direct experience was not lost it was just believing the thought stream. There is no separate self other than just the thought stream believed as a separate self. When attention returns to seeing and looking it is apparent that sensation - images, sounds, touch, taste, smell, thoughts arising - is all there is, and that what is labeled as the body through thought is of the same 'stuff' that is seen, heard, felt, etc. It feels like there is a dipping in and out of the thought-self belief. When the direct experience is seen there is a sensation of expansiveness, when the thought-stream is believed there is a contraction sensation.

There is no I, no you to do things. Do you see that ? LOOK.

What/who is doing the things? Driving the car or hearing the bird chirp? What/who notices that small/furry thing labeled a cat, and how does this noticer know the cat notices it? "I" don't know. There is no self found or seen, but there seems to be something. That's what going on now. Also, there is no self but there is a sensation of 'self'. It can not be found, it cannot be seen, and it is not a thought, but there is a sensation that something is experiencing.

but there is a sensation that something is experiencing.

Ok, not sensation - that is a thought/concept - but there is something experiencing

Hi

Yes there is experience and knowing of it. The experience and the knowing of it are not separate.
Yes there is aliveness, being aware, but it is not you. The knowing principle is universal.

Go for a walk in a park or wherever and observe what is going on. See that there is no self needed.

Come back with what arises.

Best wishes

Warissem

Hi Warissem,

Go for a walk in a park or wherever and observe what is going on. See that there is no self needed.

Come back with what arises.

I went for a walk in a park as you suggested. What was observed was that there is only right now. Direct experience of sensations and/or thoughts. Attention moves from one thing to the next - sight, sound, thought, taste, smell, etc. At one point I was walking and it was difficult to decipher whether a body was walking forward or if the trees/landscape was moving toward 'my' point of awareness. There was just movement of images that thought labeled as trees and sky and rocks. At another point I stopped by the river to look at it, and for a period of 'time' the river flowing suddenly seemed very close, more intimate than just watching it. This was not a thought but the direct experience of the sight of the river seeming closer in awareness. Nothing mystical just less distance from what was directly being seen. I-thoughts arose. Memories arose and "I" asked "what is a memory?" It is a thought happening now. It is a thought now, referencing another thought. Thoughts still referenced an I, but the majority of the walk there was just awareness experiencing sensations.

Good morning

Slowly but surely, you are doing a good job. Here is an exercise for you.

1. Can you find anywhere where SJ autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which SJ is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

Best wishes

Warissem

Hi Warissem,

I will take another day to consider these questions. I have enjoyed considering how choice comes along, or if it even does.
Could you elaborate on "choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow"?
What do you mean by the product of all elements? Do you mean the elements of sensation or the elements of what is experienced? And with overall flow, is that referring to intuition, or not resisting?

Thank you,
Jenny