Nothing is divine

[luciddreamer]

Hi Kento :)

It's interesting, it feels like something I have known all along so in that sense nothing feels different at all. On the other hand, before our conversation, I thought that there is a sense of separate self that needs to be obliterated, but now it's obviously clear that the sense of separate self was a mirage all along.

I feel like there's nothing I need to find out or "solve" anymore.

Thank you for your guidance!

Kind regards,
Luka

[Bananafish]

Hi Luka. :)

Great to hear that! Do you have anything you would like to have a look together? Would you say that you are crystal clear about your finding, and that the understanding is a visceral one, rather than an intellectual one?

Please be 100% honest about this, and be careful not to convince yourself that you got some clear understanding.

Warm wishes,

Kento

[luciddreamer]

Hi Kento :)

So, I sat with this for a while.

And yes, I'm crystal clear about my finding, or rather I don't know how much clearer it could get.
There is nothing I could point to that seems like a hurdle or something that needs to be seen through, yet, I feel like there is more potential depth to the understanding. It's kind of like the body-mind organism is lagging behind, if this makes sense.

Warm wishes,
Luka

[Bananafish]

Very nice, Luka.

Would you like to try a certain set of questions asked at
the end of the inquiry, so that we could see if there is any missing point
we haven't covered yet?

Warm regards,

Kento

[luciddreamer]

Hi Kento :)

That sounds like a good idea, let's do it.

Warm wishes,
Luka

[Bananafish]

Hi Luka. :)

Ok, here are the questions!


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Best wishes,

Kento

[luciddreamer]

Hi Kento, :)

Took me some time to write down the answers but here we go:

1) No, there is and never was a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form.
What there is, is the 'I' thought and other mental content in conjunction with the appearance of ownership that makes it seem like there is an individual in all this and to whom all this is happening. But what is apparent now, is that all of it
is arising and subsiding without a 'self' directing anything.

2) The illusion of the separate self is the idea that there is/was someone to whom all experience is happening.
It shows up when thoughts and emotions come together and create the idea that a someone is inside all these thoughts and emotions.
Further, it happens retrospectively because when I try to look for it, it's not there. That's the illusion.
Before I thought, there is actually a sense of separate self, but through the inquiry, I realized that there is nothing like that. There are thoughts, emotions, and sensations but none of these mean any separate entity/self.

3) It feels like a veil has been lifted, kind of like struggling with a math equation but suddenly it just all pops into place.
Before I used to think something needs to happen for the sense of separate self to go away, it felt like the final major hurdle. Now, I know that there is none, no matter what thoughts and emotions come up.
It's like realizing that Santa is not real, no matter how many Santas I see I know he's not real real.

4) The last bit that pushed me over was when you asked why I was associating the vague sense with the sense of separate self, that's when I realized that it's actually just a thought in combination with emotion/sensation.

5a) All of these seem to exist but there is no one who is asserting them. No one makes things happen, everything is simply arising. If I, for instance, make a decision I might think it's me who made the decision but when I trace the decision to its root, it's apparent that there is no entity who made the decision as there is always a deeper layer of causation (i.e. the decision to make a decision).
The same is true for intention, free will, choice, and control. They all arise but there is no one making them arise, which
ultimately means that they all just seem to exist as they imply a someone to exert decision, intention, will, choice, and control but behind it, there is no one.
When I, for instance, decide to paint, I can see that it's a decision arising and the body that moves into action but no 'I' that is directing the decision or action. For instance, the same is true when I wake up and intend to have a fun day, the intention arises, but there's no 'me' who's intending it nor do I know why the intention arises.

b) I am responsible for nothing because there is no one to be responsible for. Whenever something triggers it, a sense of responsibility arises in tandem with thoughts but there is no I in between it all.
There is, for instance, a responsibility to take care of the body in the form of healthy nutrition and working out.
The action happens as the result of responsibility arising but there is no entity behind it. Another example I noticed is the tendency to take responsibility for 'my' actions. When I do something it seems obvious that it's I who should be responsible, but because there is no I (apart from a thought), there is no one that can be responsible. This means, similar to the previous concepts that responsibility arises but doesn't really exist as it implies someone to claim it.

6) I noticed the mind's tendency to hold on to something, like identifying with no-self or nothing, and how this inevitably re-introduces an entity, which doesn't exist as such. So whatever this is we are talking about, there's really nothing that can be said about it.


Best wishes,
Luka

[Bananafish]

Hi Luka. :)

Ok, thanks! I'll let my fellow guides see the thread, so that they could ask questions
about it. In the meantime, I'll have a closer look at your answers.

Warm wishes,

Kento

[Bananafish]

Hi Luka. :) Just noticed this point I'd like to check with you:

I noticed the mind's tendency to hold on to something, like identifying with no-self or nothing

Could you tell a bit more about what you call "mind" here?


Warm wishes,

Kento

[luciddreamer]

Hi Kento :)

By "mind," I mean thoughts and other "mental" content. So it's not an actual thing called mind I'm talking about, but rather the whole bag of thoughts and emotions.

Warm wishes,
Luka

[Bananafish]

Ok, thanks Luka. :)

Could you describe how thoughts and emotions appear?

Warmly,

Kento

[luciddreamer]

Hi Kento :)

Well, how or from where they appear I don't know. What I know is that they appear and disappear without an 'I' or 'me' making them appear or disappear.

Kind regards,
Luka

[Bananafish]

Hi Luka. :) What I meant was that I wanted you to describe
the process of thoughts and emotions appearing and disappearing in details.

If you are not clear, don't say "I don't know," but rather observe.

Warm wishes,

Kento

[luciddreamer]

Hi Kento :)

Ok, got it.

So when I perceive something through my senses, like seeing a bird, for instance, a thought arises that says "that's a beautiful bird." and with this thought, an emotion may arise, like gratitude. Sometimes it seems to be the other way around, meaning an emotion occurs as the result of perceiving something, which then triggers a thought that justifies the emotion. Yet, this is kind of a chicken and egg thing because a thought could always be preceded by emotion or vice versa, or they may even appear in tandem. It depends on whether the thought or the emotion is perceived first and in the end, there is always a preceding thought or emotion to a thought or emotion.

In any case, thoughts and emotions always arise as an answer to stimuli, and when the stimulus is gone the thoughts and emotions disappear again until something else triggers the appearance of other thoughts and emotions, and this something else may even be preceding thoughts and emotions.

Kind regards,
Luka

[Bananafish]

So when I perceive something through my senses, like seeing a bird

Could you elaborate on the relation between perception and senses, seeing and a bird?


Warmly,

Kento