Have I really seen throught the self or am I just fooling myself?

[warissem]

Good morning

This is an investigation I recommend :

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Kind regards

Warissem

[nightskyblue]

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

The body doesn't have any form when sitting eyes closed. Mental image of the body may appear, but in actual experience the body doesn't have any shape.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

There is a physical boundary. I can feel the inside of the body, sensations like breathing and heart beating, aches and pains.. But I canot feel "inside" of the chair. But feeling of sitting on a chair or feeling the clothing on a skin happen in the same "space", that maybe some might call awareness or something like that. So in that sense there is no boundary when experiencing different senations, the all happen in the one same space. But there is a physical boundary for sure, otherwise I would know what it is like to be a chair? :D

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

Yes and no. Like I answered previously, I can feel the body from the inside, but not the chair. But on the other hand, everything that is experienced or seen or felt or heard, "happens" in this one space.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

It refers to the human body? I may not really understand this question.. Like the chair we sit on is labelled 'a chair', somewhere in language we have agreed that these human vehicles are called 'bodies'. The actual experience of the body is a collection of some physical sensations. Maybe one could say there is no body, just sensations appearing in the space.

[warissem]

Good evening

This is an exercise which helps :

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Kind regards

Warissem

[nightskyblue]

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Brain seems to ponder which hand to choose, but then either of the hands just raises. I don't know what it is that is choosing. Feels like nothing is really choosing, it just happens.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

No, can't find anything that is doing the choosing.

What is it that is controlling the hand?

I don't know. I don't feel like it's any particular thing that is controlling the hand.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, because there is no controller.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

Nothing can be found.

How is the decision made?

I don't know. It just seems to happen, without a desicion process.

[warissem]

Hi

Are you 100 % sure that there is no separate self in any shape or form ?

What has changed from the beginning of this dialog ?

Has the seeking ended ?

If not, expose any doubt here ?

Warissem

[nightskyblue]

Are you 100 % sure that there is no separate self in any shape or form ?

Yes, I cannot find any separate entity called "the self"

What has changed from the beginning of this dialog ?

Nothing changed. It is still obvious that there is no separate self. But there is also still a sense of agitation felt in the body and longing for freedom.

Has the seeking ended ?

There is no seeking the same way as there used to be in the past. But there is a mild restlessness. I guess I was hoping it would go away once it's seen there is no self.. I was also hoping that the sense of separateness that is felt in the body would also dissolve, but that is not the case.

[warissem]

Good evening

Nothing changed. It is still obvious that there is no separate self. But there is also still a sense of agitation felt in the body and longing for freedom.

What is this sense of agitation ? Look at it : is it different from a sensation ? Is really this sense of agitation longing for freedom?

There is no seeking the same way as there used to be in the past. But there is a mild restlessness. I guess I was hoping it would go away once it's seen there is no self.. I was also hoping that the sense of separateness that is felt in the body would also dissolve, but that is not the case.

In direct experience, can you describe this sense of separateness : what is it ? Where is it localized ?

Kind regards

Warissem

[nightskyblue]

What is this sense of agitation ? Look at it : is it different from a sensation ? Is really this sense of agitation longing for freedom?

It is not different. I just gave this sensation a name "agitation". I don't know what it is exactly that is longing for freedom. It's a gentle whole body "feeling", like as if every cell in the body is longing for it.

In direct experience, can you describe this sense of separateness : what is it ? Where is it localized ?

It feels like a dense energy is packed in the body, especially in the head area and it feels unnatural. Like the energy is trapped inside the body. It's a sensation that I chose to call "separateness", because that felt like the best description.

[warissem]

Good morning

It feels like a dense energy is packed in the body, especially in the head area and it feels unnatural. Like the energy is trapped inside the body. It's a sensation that I chose to call "separateness", because that felt like the best description.

This answer is far away from direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching). Come back to direct experience and answer to these questions :

Is what is seen separated from the knowing of it ?
Is what is heard separated from the knowing of it ?
Is what is smelt separated from the knowing of it ?
Is what is tasted separated from the knowing of it ?
Are sensations separated from the knowing of them ?

Is there a you, a separate self, needed to see, hear, etc ...?

Look at direct experience for each question till you are 100 % certain of the answer.

Kind regards

Warissem

[nightskyblue]

Is what is seen separated from the knowing of it ?
Is what is heard separated from the knowing of it ?
Is what is smelt separated from the knowing of it ?
Is what is tasted separated from the knowing of it ?
Are sensations separated from the knowing of them ?

I'm sorry my level of english is not good enough, I don't really understand these sentences, they sounds so complicated. What is meant by "knowing of it"? Seeing is seeing, hearing is hearind, smelling is smelling etc.. What is there to know of it? I'm confused.

Is there a you, a separate self, needed to see, hear, etc ...?

No, there is no separate self.

[warissem]

Hi

Is what is seen separate from the knowing of it ?

Example : there is seeing of the screen/ OK ? There is knowing of seeing the screen ?
Here the screen is what is seen.

Now is there a separation between knowing and the screen ?

That is what it means.

I hope you understand an d give the answers to the questions.

Kind regards

Warissem

[nightskyblue]

Is what is seen separate from the knowing of it ?

Example : there is seeing of the screen/ OK ? There is knowing of seeing the screen ?
Here the screen is what is seen.

Now is there a separation between knowing and the screen ?

There is just seeing the screen. There is no knower.

[warissem]

Good morning

Here are six questions, elaborate on your answers :

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Warissem

[nightskyblue]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, there is no separate entity called a 'self'. There never was one. In the past there was identification with some 'me' thought structures. It felt like there was a psychological character in the head. But in actuality there never was any 'me' living in the body, just thoughts passing by.

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

The illusion of separate self is probably different experience for everyone. Here there was never a strong sense of self or a strong identity. I didn't know at all who I was. So there was this confused self in the head going on, insecurity, doubt etc.. Through listening to non-duality talks and through this inquiry, a lightness came little by little. The confused thoughts and 'me' thoughts seem to be less and less because there is no one interest in them anymore.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It doesn't really feel much like anything. Very neutral. It's always been this way. There is not much difference before or after this dialogue. Maybe no more doubting thoughts about "maybe there should be a deeper seeing".

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

I don't feel like there was any last bit. It was a gradual and quite unnoticable "process". Very natural since there never has been any self and that was somehow always known here, but due to the society we live in there was trying to be someone.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

I don't know what makes things happen. I don't think it's something that can be known. How boring would it be to know anyway. Things just happen, decisions happen, maybe based on the information the brain has gathered or maybe not, who knows. Free will.. there might be a feeling of 'I am deciding', but it is just a feeling. There is no one behind that feeling though. Thinking/wondering about how things happen or work, sounds very mental to me. I don't really see a point in that.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

I don't know what responsible actually mean. Ability to respond? Or taking responsibility for something? Either way, who would be responsible for? And again I must say I don't really see the point in figuring out how this works. How can we truly ever know how all of this life works?

6) Anything to add?

Will this "realization" of "no-self" be seen on the level of perception also?

Thank you!

Regards,
Nightskyblue

[warissem]

Good evening

Will this "realization" of "no-self" be seen on the level of perception also?

No, because the illusion resides there. It is like seeing a mirage in the desert. Once you know it is a mirage, you won't believe to find water. But you continue to see a mirage when you go across the desert.

I propose the answers to other guides if they have questions for you.

Best wishes

Warissem