The Gate

Hi Jordan,

You did a nice inquiry :)

Yes - there is simply the experience of seeing. It sounds strange to say it but the eyes are irrelevant for seeing!

Have you noticed that in actuality all there are to the eyes are sensations?

Look around in the room.
Notice that all there is known about the eyes are sensations. Nothing else.
And this is true for the whole face, and the whole head.
Just sensations.
Can you see that?

Now, the next step to notice that the sensations of the eyes (or the face, or the head) are just as much known as whatever is seen. So the colour of the wall is known just as much the sensations of the eyes are known.
They both known equally. Can you see that?

So how can one known thing (sensations of the eyes) know other known things (wall)?
Can a sensation know colours and shapes?

And what about hearing? Is there anything else to the ears other than sensations?
Aren’t these sensations just equally known/observed just as the sounds?
Can a sensation know a sound?

Vivien

Hey Vivien,

This is remarkable, I’m recognising things I haven’t recognised before.

Have you noticed that in actuality all there are to the eyes are sensations?

Yes I can notice that now. I had temporarily got stuck on the sensations associated with the eyes being closer to experience than something on the other side of the room, but it’s all the same.

Just sensations.
Can you see that?

Yes - I struggle to explain this in a nondualistic way, but it’s like they’re all just appearances/sensations.

So the colour of the wall is known just as much the sensations of the eyes are known.
They both known equally. Can you see that?

Yes, I can see it. The colour is as much an appearance as the sensation of the eyes.

So how can one known thing (sensations of the eyes) know other known things (wall)?

Hmm, it can’t? (I think) They’re both appearances in consciousness/awareness.

Can a sensation know colours and shapes?

No, definitely not. It’s amazing how clear this is to me now compared to yesterday.

And what about hearing? Is there anything else to the ears other than sensations?

Not that I know or that I can verify in my actual, direct experience.

Aren’t these sensations just equally known/observed just as the sounds?

Yes, they feel equally known in this space.

Can a sensation know a sound?

No, just like the eyes can’t know the seeing, the ears aren’t doing the hearing. Both are happening.

Thank you for your patience with this Vivien!

Hi Jordan,

You did a really nice inquiry.

Yes I can notice that now. I had temporarily got stuck on the sensations associated with the eyes being closer to experience than something on the other side of the room, but it’s all the same.

Exactly.

Now look at this very carefully:

What could the sensations of the eyes be closer TO?
Find the reference point, to which it is closer.

Now, identify (localize) the feeler.
The body is supposedly felt by me. So there should be a feeler. Find it.

Actually, if you look closely you will see that both of these questions re pointing to the same thing, some kind of centralized experiencer. Can you find it?

Is there an experiencer in actuality?
Or the experiencer only ever exist in thought, just as a character in a book, or in this case, an audio book, narrated as thoughs?

Vivien

Thank you for the kind words Vivien!

What could the sensations of the eyes be closer TO?

I can’t seem to locate a centre for this inquiry.

Find the reference point, to which it is closer.

I really can’t - it’s like it’s everywhere or nowhere.

Now, identify (localize) the feeler.
The body is supposedly felt by me. So there should be a feeler. Find it.

Feeling felt slightly harder than the sensations of the eyes, yet when a try carefully to find a feeler, there is no feeler to be found - just feeling happening.

some kind of centralized experiencer. Can you find it?

There doesn’t seem to be a centralised experienced there. I can see that they are pointing towards the same thing which seems to be just appearances in awareness.

Is there an experiencer in actuality?

Not that I can find, therefore no actual experiencer exists. Just a concept!

Or the experiencer only ever exist in thought, just as a character in a book, or in this case, an audio book, narrated as thoughs?

It’s becoming clear that the experiencer was merely a concept created by thought. And this must have always been the case - Jordan is not the experiencer, Jordan is a label put around loose concepts and sensations in experience by thought.

Hi Jordan,

Really nice :)

Now, let’s start to investigate this illusion form a different angle.

It is believed that I am thinking, I have control over thoughts, I can think whatever I want to think.

But if you look closely, is there any control over thoughts, whatsoever?

Today, I give you only one question. Please come back to it as often as possible. Whenever it feels like that I am thinking this or that, or I have a power to decide what to think, always check. Check, until the answer is totally clear, and then check a bit more :)

You are doing really well :)

Vivien

Hey Vivien,

But if you look closely, is there any control over thoughts, whatsoever?

When I look closely, it seems like thought is no different than breathing, or seeing for that matter. I can have the illusion of “taking control” of my breathing, or “taking control” of my thoughts but it seems as though that’s just me noticing them.

It’s like when people say you’re now in manual breathing mode and you feel like you’re efforting breathing, but really I think this is just where attention is, and most of the time attention/noticing is closest to thought because certain thoughts demand it.

But where does a thought come from? I can’t find a definitive starting point or an end point of where it goes. When I thinking I can will the next thought of a pink elephant into existence, that thought seems to be just an appearance that was always going to appear, but ego puts the story of “I am going to think this”, but really the thought of “I am going to think this” appeared on its own, without control, and I just happened to be noticing it.

Hi Jordan,

Sorry for the late reply.

So, are you sure that there is no control over any thought, whatsoever? Or maybe there is some remnants of doubt?

And what about other things? Is there anything that can be controlled? Not just thoughts, but let’s say the body, when to stand up, how to stand up, how to walk, when and how to move and lift the arms, etc.
What do you find?

Vivien

Hey Vivien,

Sorry for the late reply.

No problem at all! I think our timezones are probably quite different because I've been late to get responses over to you. All good!

So, are you sure that there is no control over any thought, whatsoever? Or maybe there is some remnants of doubt?

It feels like I've reached the intellectual understanding but the felt doubt is there. It's like any time I've been meditating in the past and I've been instructed to focus on the breath, I go into "manual breathing" mode where each breath is efforted/focused on rather than observing how it comes and goes on its own. I can see at an intellectual level AND know this is the case with thought when I catch a thought appearing from nowhere, but it feels like something I need to practice for the doubt to disappear around ALL thought and for it to fully snap into place.

And what about other things? Is there anything that can be controlled? Not just thoughts, but let’s say the body, when to stand up, how to stand up, how to walk, when and how to move and lift the arms, etc.
What do you find?

So this is interesting - recently (before I reached out to you and whilst I was reading the Gateless Gate) I noticed that there is so much of my life that is in autopilot. Even when driving - which sounds insane, but I now catch myself all the time noticing that I didn't put any effort into a certain stretch of road, or the last corner I drove around - it is happening by itself.

Same thing for walking or reaching out to grab something. Sometimes the ego grabs the story of "I reached out to grab that thing off the shelf" - but I know nothing of the thousands, maybe millions of mechanisms in the body that made that happen. I can't effort something like "move 64 tendons in the following directions, tense muscles like so, and send the following signals through the intricacies of the nervous system" - that simply isn't the case. In anything in life. The ego is post-rationalising whatever it can - and it's a very small percentage of daily existence when I notice it. This just happens. Just like breathing. And I know that thought MUST be the same, it just isn't fully felt like the other things in the body yet.

Hi Jordan,

It feels like I've reached the intellectual understanding but the felt doubt is there. It's like any time I've been meditating in the past and I've been instructed to focus on the breath, I go into "manual breathing" mode where each breath is efforted/focused on rather than observing how it comes and goes on its own.

Is there any moment when breathing is not automatic? When it’s SEEMS LIKE as it being controlled, is it actually controlled?
You can look at this from two different angles.

Sit, and one moment decide to hold back your breath for a short period of time.

What makes that deciding thought to appear? Is that your doing?

Is there someone there intentionally deciding?

Also, look at the act of holding the breath itself.
Is there a doer, doing it?
is there a breath holder? And then a breath releaser?

Same thing for walking or reaching out to grab something. Sometimes the ego grabs the story of "I reached out to grab that thing off the shelf" - but I know nothing of the thousands, maybe millions of mechanisms in the body that made that happen. I can't effort something like "move 64 tendons in the following directions, tense muscles like so, and send the following signals through the intricacies of the nervous system" - that simply isn't the case. In anything in life. The ego is post-rationalising whatever it can - and it's a very small percentage of daily existence when I notice it. This just happens. Just like breathing. And I know that thought MUST be the same, it just isn't fully felt like the other things in the body yet.

Yes, this is rationalizing.

Here is another exercise for you.

Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch very carefully.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Is a thought moving the hand? If yes, how?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?
Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?

When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?

Please spend lots of time investigating these, again and again. You can spend a few days with these 2 exercises before replying. Don’t rush, be thorough.

Vivien

Thank you for these prompts Vivien, I'm going to take a day or two to sit with these inquiries because this gets to the crux of the whole thing for me. Already I can see progress in noticing with the hand experiment and the breath, so I'll sit with it and let it saturate before replying.

Thank you again Vivien! Chat to you in a day or so!

You are welcome ;) Take your time and be thorough

Hey Vivien!

I have sat with the questions for a couple of days now, and I'm glad I did.

What makes that deciding thought to appear? Is that your doing?

No. It certainly isn't. It becomes clear when I try to find the origin of the thought, where it came from and where it goes after it has passed. There wasn't a thinker who thought it up.

Is there someone there intentionally deciding?

No. I had previously mistaken the feeling or thought of someone intentionally deciding or having control over this but there isn't anyone there. When I look, it's just like the breath. It's appearing on its own. And actually quite funny that the appearance is now trying to reference itself in this search :)

Is there a doer, doing it?

No. Whenever I think "clearly it's me who is holding the breath" I simply look for that breath holder and they are nowhere. It's appearing, and thought was telling a story to rationalise or own the holding of the breath.

is there a breath holder? And then a breath releaser?

No. It's like looking in empty space. Nothing there.

How is the movement controlled?

It seems crazy but thought has nothing to do with it. Again, I'm laughing at some of these realisations! I feel silly also using the words "I am laughing" because it doesn't feel technically true. There is an appearance or an experience of laughing, but "I" will keep using "I", "me" etc as a tool or a shortcut for language to describe these things.

Does a thought control it?

No. Not at all. There appears to be far too much happening in that movement for thought to have anything to do with it.

Is a thought moving the hand? If yes, how?

As far as I can tell, thought tries to put the incorrect story of "I moved the hand" over the top of a movement that has nothing to do with thought.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No. In the days that I sat with these inquiries - this provided a lot of clarity.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I feel like I can catch thought trying to rationalise it and label it, but it's not quite quick enough to escape scrutiny. Thought isn't deciding. There is no deciding happening, there is just happening.
THIS provided the most clarity of all. Thought was too slow to claim this one. I walked through the inquiries one by one and before I knew it, when this question came up, thought was caught in the act. The right hand was already raised. No decision was made! Thought was busted and it brought about more laughter!

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, it's just happening.

When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?

It's the same process whatever that process is. In fact, it doesn't have a label, it just is. It's just nature, natureing but even that is too much labelling - this body is part of that.

Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?

No. Absolutely not. It now seems very silly that thought makes itself the centre of attention and gets in the way (or thinks it gets in the way) of nature.

When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?

No, simply moving happening.

Thank you Vivien.

Hi Jordan,

You did a beautiful inquiry :)

Now here is another one, along the same lines.
Please sit for some time and just notice how everything is just happening effortlessly.

Look around.
What is being done for colors and shapes to be? Is there anything be done for colors and shapes to be, or they are just there effortlessly?

Listen to the sounds.
What is being done exactly for the sounds to be?

And when the attention is on a sound, what is being done to know the sound? Is there any doing? Or it’s just known effortlessly?

Now shift the focus on FEELING the body.
What is being done exactly for the body to be?
Or the body just IS, effortlessly?

Focus on the sensations of the hands.
What is being done for the sensations to be?
Aren’t the sensations happens effortlessly?

Look at the hands.
What is being done exactly for the image of the hand to be, to exist?
Is there a you making the image of the hands happen?
Is there any effort in seeing?

Now notice thoughts.
What is being done for thoughts to be?
Is there any effort for thoughts to appear? Or they just appear effortlessly?

What is not happening effortlessly and needs a doer?

When there is a seeming effort, even that efforting is just happening effortlessly, on its own?

Is there any effort in being / existing?

Vivien

Hey Vivien,

Thank you! It's certainly becoming clearer to me.

What is being done for colors and shapes to be? Is there anything be done for colors and shapes to be, or they are just there effortlessly?

They are just there - no effort required for them to be there.

What is being done exactly for the sounds to be?

The sounds are also just appearing without effort. There is no hearer that can opt in or out of hearing.

And when the attention is on a sound, what is being done to know the sound? Is there any doing? Or it’s just known effortlessly?

There is no doing or efforting required to know the sound, it just happens on its own.

What is being done exactly for the body to be?

The body just is. It requires no input or effort from something to be.

Or the body just IS, effortlessly?

Absolutely, and it's making me smile with this realisation.

What is being done for the sensations to be?

They just happen. No efforter required!

Aren’t the sensations happens effortlessly?

Yes, no work required from an "I" or "me".

What is being done exactly for the image of the hand to be, to exist?

Nothing is being done - the hand just appears/exists.

Is there a you making the image of the hands happen?

The idea of a "me" or an "I" involved in this process now seems silly, no such thing is required here.

Is there any effort in seeing?

None whatsoever. There is no one to opt in or opt out of seeing.

What is being done for thoughts to be?

Nothing at all. Thoughts just are. They're impersonal to a "me" or an "I". There is no thinker thinking thoughts.

Is there any effort for thoughts to appear? Or they just appear effortlessly?

All thoughts, even thoughts that think they can think a specific thought, just appear effortlessly.

What is not happening effortlessly and needs a doer?

There is nothing that requires a doer. Not a single thing! If such a thing existed, there would be no doer to do it!

When there is a seeming effort, even that efforting is just happening effortlessly, on its own?

Exactly - and this is where I was getting stuck a bit earlier in our conversation. It seemed as though there was effort being applied, but even that was just effortlessly happening!

Is there any effort in being / existing?

No, being just is :)

Hi Jordan,

You did a beautiful inquiry :)

Can you say with 100% certainty that there has been a shift from an intellectual of understanding of there being no separate self to an experiential recognition of it?

Is there any doubt?

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

Vivien