Inutero trauma keeping me stuck in illusion. Is there anything that can help this?

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Sophie,

Knowing is a stillness, here, presence,

I get what you are saying. That there's a certain feeling of sanctity alongside the thoughts.
For myself I still don't trust that this is more than a conditioned response. Because something resonates just means that it aligns with current beliefs. Don't get me wrong, I do trust this as a judgment way more than thinking alone.

Knowing I’m the knowing of experience and not the character and body-mind I’ve identified with.

I'm fully with you on "not the character...", but to say that you are the knowing of experience is identification.
i would say the same thing if you said that you were the knower.
It may be a language thing, so tell me more about you being the "knowing" of experience.
i suspect that you might already see that which LU guides point to, but I'm pushing harder.
Answer this; Outside of language, is an experiencer required to experience the experienced? ..or to ask it a different way, when experiencing is happening, is there an experiencer and an experienced?

with love

vince

[SophieGoLove]

Dear Vince,

Thank you.
I really appreciate your pointing and questioning.

For myself I still don't trust that this is more than a conditioned response.

Yes I get this. I understand/know/am aware too that I can't fully trust anything that comes through the mind as an idea/thought/perception.

Everything here feels awash. I know I'm not the mind-body identity yet I know I still identify.
Who/What is it that knows there is identification? What is identified and what with?
This is beyond intellect. There is nothing there that knows, not an object. But it's known.

This feels triggering which I am glad for.
Frustration arises.

There is intellectual understanding, I've learned, I've had 'experiences' of something that have shown me I'm not what I thought I was, there is a cleverness with words, insights and ah-ha moments come a lot, yet I know this isn't what matters here. None of that matters. Nothing of what I thought I knew 'before' is of any use here. Words feel frustrating because they don't do anything for what is in question here. And I find it difficult putting some things down in words because it all feels wrong.

To say that you are the knowing of experience is identification.
i would say the same thing if you said that you were the knower.

Yes. It is identification. I seem to jump between identifying with different concepts instead of being. If that is even a thing. Because again that's identifying with being? And creating a concept of being.

Tell me more about you being the "knowing" of experience.

Feeling the keyboard, hearing the clock, tasting the chocolate, seeing the screen. This is known, as in, there is a knowing it's happening. It's happening in the experience through the body-mind of Sophie. But then that doesn't even sit right. Is that 'the knowing'?
Experiencing is happening. This happening is experienced.
I intellectually know it's all happening 'within me' (used loosely) - the I amness. I am this and all of this is everything that I am. I get it. I see it. What is it that separates identification and clear seeing. What is this non-existent block that prevents us from seeing through the illusion. The illusion and the block are the same thing....!

Outside of language, is an experiencer required to experience the experienced? ..or to ask it a different way, when experiencing is happening, is there an experiencer and an experienced?

Is Sophie required for experience to be experienced? No. The body-mind is happening, experiencing is being experienced through the 'Sophie' body-mind, but Sophie isn't needed here. If there wasn't identification with the Sophie character the experience would still be experienced as it is with no blocks or conditioned filters.
Is knowing required for the experience to be experienced? No.
The experience and the experienced are both simultaneously known and thus can't be separated.

This is so helpful. I feel movement.
Thank you.
Love Soph

[vinceschubert]

'evening Soph.

I really appreciate your pointing and questioning.

No worries. Thank you for being there. i get to look deeper when I guide.

Yes I get this. I understand/know/am aware too that I can't fully trust anything that comes through the mind as an idea/thought/perception.

Good stuff. This is a really big one. Seeing that is a portal that you just let yourself fall through. How do you do that? (rhetorical question) You consider the consequences of this.
We will do this as I work through the rest of your post...

I know I'm not the mind-body identity yet I know I still identify.

No you don't. To identify, you have to believe what (I know that you know) the mind says about Sophie.
Get this; If you believe it and act on it then you are deluded. If you recognize what is happening when you behave AS IF you are identifying, then it is an illusion.
Frequently, it is appropriate to behave AS IF the illusion is actual. In fact it would be impossible to go through a whole day interacting with others and not do it.
If with a moments reflection, you recognize what happened then you are not identifying.
The other aspect is that you have a lifetime of conditioning behind automatic responding. Sometimes we automatically, habitually, respond AS IF we are identifying. Again, is reflection reveals what happened then the brain will further rewire and those habits will occur less and less and it will be seen sooner.

I find it difficult putting some things down in words because it all feels wrong.

Yes. Language evolves with common usage and this stuff isn't mainstream enough for words to be invented that make it easier. ..and you are right. Mind is inadequate to express much of this.

Who/What is it that knows there is identification? What is identified and what with?

This is a question that is a trap laid by language, where there is always a subject and an object.
You will discover that many questions don't have an answer and don't even require one.

This is known, as in, there is a knowing it's happening. It's happening in the experience through the body-mind of Sophie. But then that doesn't even sit right. Is that 'the knowing'?

Experiencing happens before thoughts arrive. Of course you experience the thoughts arriving, but they are ABOUT the experience (now past tense)

What is this non-existent block that prevents us from seeing through the illusion. The illusion and the block are the same thing....!

It's called being human. ..and I have to correct you. You see through the delusion. Then you recognize that it is an illusion. Because of the way our senses work, it will always be an illusion. The difference is that now you know it is.

I feel movement.

Yes. (me too) Let yourself fall.

with love

vince

[SophieGoLove]

Evening Vince,

Such a gift!
There's been all manner of $%&*$%*@£$@@ occurring/not occurring after your reply.
Thank you.
Umm....
I had a big laugh, like 'whaaaaat' after reading:

No you don't.

And then moved by:

To identify, you have to believe what the mind says about Sophie.
Get this; If you believe it and act on it then you are deluded. If you recognize what is happening when you behave AS IF you are identifying, then it is an illusion.

I don't identify!:)

Kind of stumped thinking 'then there's no more to discuss then, is there?'

It is feeling pressing to bring up the question of delusion v illusion.

You see through the delusion. Then you recognize that it is an illusion. Because of the way our senses work, it will always be an illusion. The difference is that now you know it is.

The delusion is the matter of not knowing I was asleep to my true nature?
The illusion is the delusion, because haha...this is brilliant, the illusion IS the delusion because only an illusion can veil our true nature?
Or, the delusion is an illusion created by This to experience the illusion?
Much fun.

Let yourself fall.

And so it is.

Love Soph

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Soph,

Kind of stumped thinking 'then there's no more to discuss then, is there?'

once you 'get it', it's really simple. We move from seeking to discovering. ..and there's always more to discover. (that's why I guide)
We have no more questions because any answer is not definitive.

It is feeling pressing to bring up the question of delusion v illusion.

Delusion is when you continue to believe something in spite of evidence refuting it. Hmm, I guess that you can be deluded without having been exposed to the actuality of it.
Illusion is when the senses show you something that you know isn't actual. It looks like something.

the matter of not knowing I was asleep to my true nature?

I'm a little disturbed by the concept of "true nature". Would you elaborate on it please..

the delusion is an illusion created by This to experience the illusion?

Are you saying that "This" has purpose, intention?
What is This?

with love

vince

[SophieGoLove]

Hi Vince,

Feeling somewhat overwhelmed/full-up by the changes in life experience; replying on my phone as best I can because the quiet computer space I had isn’t so quiet now.

I'm a little disturbed by the concept of "true nature". Would you elaborate on it please..

I appreciate your disturbance. It helps to call me out on the things I repeat that I’ve picked up on my ‘travels’.
I’ve no idea what to say about it. There’s a blank because how do I elaborate on something that’s indescribable…
True nature is the label I’ve learned to assign to awareness/infinite consciousness.
Could you share more on why it disturbs you so I can see it differently?

Are you saying that "This" has purpose, intention?
What is This?

I can’t say if This has a purpose. It maybe appears to in the limited mind due to the perception or belief in cause and effect. ‘This’ is another label/concept(?) I’ve assigned to the ever unfolding of what is, life ?!, the always now and all that it is? I don’t even know what that is.

I’d like to explore what illusion/delusion is in terms of current experience.
I’ve left my expartners home where I’ve lived with him a while. ‘Layers’ (said loosely) of attachment are exposed, albeit MUCH less than previous partners.
There is awareness of what’s happening within and without.
Feelings/emotions arise, I let the tears flow.
With attachment conditioning there are repetitive thoughts and one particular story that has weight and draws me in.
What is it when I’m aware of the thoughts, I see the story, I’m drawn in whilst still seeing it and I’m experiencing anger, rejection story, frustration and I just want to scream and shout and put blame onto him for what’s arising.
Is this illusion or some delusion?

With Love,
Soph

[SophieGoLove]

Hmmm… to correct, there is a wanting to scream and shout but I see it and generally don’t get lost in it or act it out.

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Soph,

Feeling somewhat overwhelmed/full-up by the changes in life experience;

Are you missing the opportunity to practice acceptance?
Wishing for what has already happened to be different is futile. It is a definition of suffering.
The portal that I fell through is THIS IS IT. So a welcoming surrender to what life offers is really worth consideration.

True nature is the label I’ve learned to assign to awareness/infinite consciousness.

Both "awareness" and "infinite consciousness" are nouns. Things. ..but they aren''t things. They are concepts. Used frequently in the pop zen literature. i have no idea if they point to anything actual, so find them unhelpful. (the same goes for 'Enlightenment' and God.) The problem with using them is that people who get stuck in spiritual bypassing use them to identify with. What we are about is killing any identification. How can we identify with the mystery that we are?

the always now and all that it is? I don’t even know what that is.

It is current experiencing.
Not a description of it. Not any words or thoughts about it, but the experiencing of movement, of thoughts (not their content) of feelings. This is what I call THIS.

What is it when I’m aware of the thoughts, I see the story, I’m drawn in whilst still seeing it and I’m experiencing anger, rejection story, frustration and I just want to scream and shout and put blame onto him for what’s arising.
Is this illusion or some delusion?

This is illusion. It is seen to be happening. It is the experience of an awake being.
The seeing of what is happening will transmute the experience.
We are conditioned to live out such stories with experiences of pain and suffering. Each time these things visit, if it is seen it will finish quicker and happen less frequently. The brain is literally being rewired. Old habitual pathways will get less reinforcement and new ones will be established.
Another thing experienced here is that there are less filters now. Less caring of what others might think. Tears flow more easily. Frustration happens quickly and intensely, but also evaporates quickly.
Sadness happens but no grief. Frustration without anger.

I can’t say if This has a purpose. It maybe appears to in the limited mind due to the perception or belief in cause and effect.

If you think about it, "purpose" is a mind creation. (don't just believe me - consider it and see what happens)
"Cause and effect" is a simplistic notion. It implies that a happening is due to a single or very limited number of causes.
Take any event and consider what conditions were necessary for it to happen and you will quickly realize that all of the necessary conditions had to be present and aligned and furthermore each of those conditions needed a host of necessary conditions to be present. In fact everything that has ever happened since the beginning of existence had to happen exactly the way it did for any happening to have occurred the way that it did.

Hmmm… to correct, there is a wanting to scream and shout but I see it and generally don’t get lost in it or act it out.

Does it appear that there is intention behind the not getting lost or acting it out? ..or does that just happen?

with love

vince

[SophieGoLove]

Hey Vince,

Thanks so much; this is bringing things into conversation that I've wanted to explore.

Are you missing the opportunity to practice acceptance?
The portal that I fell through is THIS IS IT. So a welcoming surrender to what life offers is really worth consideration.

I'm not sure I'm missing the opportunity. This is partly where I'm 'at a loss' with how I live in this world.
Is what I shared me inadvertently being drawn into story?

"Feeling somewhat overwhelmed/full-up by the changes in life experience"...

Can I express these things whilst accepting that's how it feels right now? and not be caught in story...
Can there not be a surrender to this being WHAT IS in this moment?

I know I've been prone to spiritually bypass and have greater awareness around this now. But part of the undoing process is that I've turned to say things that I feel instead of saying 'it's ok, all is well'...
I absolutely agree that THIS IS IT.
What is your definition of spiritually bypassing? (ah, just re-read and I see you mean that I may say I'm awareness or infinite consciousness as a way to escape the moment..? To conceptualise and bypass this..)

I fully surrender to what life offers (or at least I 'do my best to') and this brings gratitude in situations that before would've had me in drama or pity or victim. And in this unravelling of identity with the conditioned character I still have times where I deeply feel the story of the character - or is that because I'm identifying?

I am here for help, support, whatever words fit, to be able to live in this world as/via this Sophie character whilst knowing I'm the/a mystery. And yes I accept that this can be another identity forming but for now it's the best I can do with words.
In this life I'm Sophie, am I not?

How do you see your self in this world?
Is there any description at all to what life is for you and how you experience it?

It is current experiencing.
Not a description of it. Not any words or thoughts about it, but the experiencing of movement, of thoughts (not their content) of feelings. This is what I call THIS.

Yes, likewise. But in these conversations we are having to use words to describe and explore....which takes us away from this?

The seeing of what is happening will transmute the experience.

This, yes, it is true in my experience. In words, it's a beautiful mystery that I cannot explain.

Does it appear that there is intention behind the not getting lost or acting it out? ..or does that just happen?

It just happens. Unlike past experience, there is a solid but not solid 'grounding' nothing that just is and all the potentials ('highs/lows/averages') occur in this. I'm still seeing these emotional highs/lows within me as a body and not an indivisible part of the whole/mystery....

Breathe....Thank you, deeply.

Sophie

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Sophie,

I'm not sure I'm missing the opportunity.

It was a question... learning is about seeing potential, which means that you are not lost in acting out.

This is partly where I'm 'at a loss' with how I live in this world.

I really dislike 'shoulds' and the moral overtones that they imply.
The story that I have about how to live, is one that says "no opinions", which means no judgments.
The experiencing that comes out of that story is that when opinions are seen to be happening (or have happened) then it is an opportunity not to have an opinion about the fact that I had an opinion. ..and if mind says it is good (an opinion) not to have an opinion then it's an opportunity not to have an opinion about that.

Is what I shared me inadvertently being drawn into story?

I don't know. Maybe. Is whatever is happening being seen?
Often seeing that we are being drawn into a story is enough to stop the being drawn in, but I guess that you can both see it and get drawn in.
Rather than think "I shouldn't get drawn in", if we consider the consequences of being drawn in, that might be enough to stop it.

Can I express these things whilst accepting that's how it feels right now? and not be caught in story...

Yes. Absolutely. Expressing them might seem like you are drawn in to whoever you are expressing them to, but if there is any objectivity then it's not what it seems.

Can there not be a surrender to this being WHAT IS in this moment?

Yes. Wanting it to be different is not surrendering. (although it seems that this is not what you are asking??)

What is your definition of spiritually bypassing? (ah, just re-read and I see you mean that I may say I'm awareness or infinite consciousness as a way to escape the moment..? To conceptualise and bypass this..)

Yes, you got it...

I still have times where I deeply feel the story of the character - or is that because I'm identifying?

No. You see that it happens. That's not identifying.
Of course you will still have those feelings. They are deeply conditioned, and also occasionally useful.

In this life I'm Sophie, am I not?

You are a mystery with the label Sophie. The world will conceptualise you as Sophie. You will conceptualise yourself as Sophie, but you are aware that it is a convenient concept. To yourself, you don't identify as Sophie, but you will wear the Sophie skin when appropriate. (tell me if I'm not accurate)

How do you see your self in this world?

Thankyou, I had to dig deep for this one. Everything that occurred to me wasn't it. When I reflect, I don't see myself in this world. i see this world as in me. That is I recognize that what I experience is my interpretation of something. i see other people reacting to their idea of vince, but I see vince reacting to his idea of not only other people but everything.

Yes, likewise.

I love it when my beliefs are confirmed.

But in these conversations we are having to use words to describe and explore....which takes us away from this?

Yes, for sure. ..but we can get a hint of it.

I'm still seeing these emotional highs/lows within me as a body and not an indivisible part of the whole/mystery....

There is no difference. What is the body if not an expression of the whole, the mystery?

Breathe....Thank you, deeply.

Thank you. (breathing, breathing)

with love

vince

[vinceschubert]

'morning Soph, i woke up this morning still thinking of the question you asked and my answer. i didn't mean to get all 'woo woo' when I said that the world is in me. It wasn't a theoretical conclusion.
Sometime in the early morning (about 5am) there is a kind of half waking that gives birth to a kind of dream world. Not a complete dream 'cos I know it is happening. It stops when I go into a deeper sleep and starts again as I partially wake up. The so called real world doesn't arise until I decide to get up. Then it is experienced as my experiencing. What I think. What I respond to those thoughts with. etc.
There are stories about what day it is, and so what clothes to wear. Stories about upcoming activities. Will I eat breakfast or am I fasting today. Stories called memories. Last night, what did I intend for today.
Then there is movement. Activity. There is sensation of a body when swinging legs out of bed and getting into a sitting position. The world is this body and it feels heavy. This activates thoughts of getting old.
When I stand the floor comes up to meet my feet. On standing, there is sensation of the body pushing down.
Are you getting my drift here?
The world only exists as an interaction happens.
Even if I think about the statue of liberty, it only exists as thoughts. i have to be very close to it for it to exist as other sense activations.
This is all so obvious here. It's been 10 years and I forget how it used to be. The obvious becomes the normal very quickly.

great love

vince

[SophieGoLove]

Afternoon Vince,

So much to embrace here...
Thank you for your lovely replies....

The story that I have about how to live, is one that says "no opinions", which means no judgments.

This is drawing on something for me, 'opinions' are now apparent everywhere...I knew this (of course) but sometimes it clicks when one's least expecting it :)

...and if mind says it is good (an opinion) not to have an opinion then it's an opportunity not to have an opinion about that.

:)

if we consider the consequences of being drawn in, that might be enough to stop it.

consequences, interesting way to see it...

Can there not be a surrender to this being WHAT IS in this moment?

Wanting it to be different is not surrendering. (although it seems that this is not what you are asking??)

No. It was one of those funny sentences, the 'not' wasn't necessary :)

I love it when my beliefs are confirmed.

ha!

There is no difference. What is the body if not an expression of the whole, the mystery?

what has to happen for this to be recognised?
Is it as simple as seeing everything in this world is in this world, a part of/expression of this world (or This) and therefore indivisible from this?
I just have a habit of seeing things separately, objectively because that's how the mind works?

Sometime in the early morning (about 5am) there is a kind of half waking that gives birth to a kind of dream world. Not a complete dream 'cos I know it is happening...................When I stand the floor comes up to meet my feet. On standing, there is sensation of the body pushing down.
Are you getting my drift here?

Yes. Brightly, absolutely, Thank you! There is experiencing of this at increasing moments through my days.

The obvious becomes the normal very quickly.

I sense this more frequently now; clarity, the occasional laughter over something perceived as complicated or simply something other than this, actually being just what is and plain as day.

Great love indeed!

Soph

[vinceschubert]

'evening Soph,

consequences, interesting way to see it...

Yes, interesting and a little tricky.
Obviously we are in storyland when we imagine what the consequence might be, but the tricky part is how do we not say that this consequence is bad or good. That is how do we not have an opinion about it? Do we say that to have an opinion is bad and not having one is good. That in itself is an opinion.
..and underlying all of this is an assumption that we have control over whether we do on not (have an opinion)
Do you have control over what thoughts arrive?
Of course not, so if an opinion arises, what do we do?
Watch. That's all. Just watch. ..and if an opinion arises about having an opinion, we still just watch.
Now, to watch can imply a doing. A having control, but it doesn't have to. If from reading this an intention (to watch) arises, then very likely watching will happen.
It's not so easy with the opinion thing though. Because it's a conditioned reflex. A habit.
It's actually a left brain reflex and one that recognizing it when it happens, without opinion, will rewire the brain.
The "without opinion" is important because the brain doesn't pay homage to "not". If you say don't have an opinion, then it strengthens "have an opinion".
Watching, recognition, is very powerful. It's power is in both the decommissioning of the old neuronal pathways and the establishment of new ones.
That decommissioning is hastened with watching because when it is seen to be happening it aborts the process which deprioves it of completion. The satisfaction of completion. That frustration is the quickest way to shut down the old habits.

What is the body if not an expression of the whole, the mystery?

what has to happen for this to be recognised?

Swallow the red pill.
It will happen in glimpses at first. It will happen when you recognize enough of the illusions to realize that experiencing is the only actuality. ..but don't focus on outcomes. That is future fantasy stuff. We need you to focus on now, here, THIS.

I sense this more frequently now; clarity, the occasional laughter over something perceived as complicated or simply something other than this, actually being just what is and plain as day.

You are sooo close.
Just relax and watch. It's a really interesting show..

love love

vince

[SophieGoLove]

Hi Vince,

Just to let you know I’m here.
Wishing to respond.
Internet on my phone isn’t loading LU at my new job and when I get home I currently don’t have the energy to reread and reply in the way I’m feeling to/would like to.

Appreciating your words and comments,

Greatest Love,
Soph

[vinceschubert]

No worries Soph, thanks for letting me know.
Replying isn't as important as keeping this stuff in the front of your mind.

with love

vince