No me

[NikkiePhil21]

Hi Luchana!!

There seems that there is a correlation, but who or what is suggesting that?
Isn't it just another thought which say so?

Yes it is! Thought thought thought! I see it.

Can you try and notice the labeling process - a thought is coming almost immediately after the experience and label it,


Here is something which may be helpful

All you need is 15-20 minutes, a pen & paper.

First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.

Like this-
I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words..

Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:
Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain.

Again watch what is happening in the body

.

Yes, a lot of effort in inserting the “I” and a heaviness. When writing happened without a me or I, it was easier on the body, softer… more natural feeling. Less struggle or tension.

Now compare the two ways to label a experience-
Is one truer than the other?

I’m hesitant to use the word truer, but yea the second way using ONLY verbs feels more natural and effortless.

If so, which one? What is here without labels?

What is here without labels is just seeing hearing sensing feeling touching… all the senses. Even thinking is another sensation. And maybe all of these are labels, too. But it is definitely feeling more true to just notice how seeing hearing feeling, etc. is just happening. The i isn’t needed… it’s an add on to the experience.

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The labels do not effect the experience but they do describe it. This is my direct experience. Thoughts do come in to say, even though you’ve labeled that a curtain, you don’t really know what it is. Curtain is just an empty word. It doesn’t mean anything. But the labeling is almost immediately after the looking.

Thanks, love,
Nikkie

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkiie,

you did a very good observation.

yes, the labels can't effect the experience, they just describe it. The labeling process is like a commentator voice - it is commenting the game, but it can't influence the game in any way.

No one is doing the thinking. I realized while moving around the kitchen, it was so automatic. The body knows specially where everything is and thinking isn’t really happening. It’s like the brain is thinking but I don’t really know where the thinking is coming from

let's dig here and make a simple exercise:

Go and make a cup of tea or coffee. I mean literaly.
As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of going to the kettle, switching it on, getting the cup (etc) when you control the process?

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?
Do you choose putting or not putting milk or sugar into the tea (or coffee)?
Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?
Do you 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?
Can a chooser be located?



Much love,
Luchana

[NikkiePhil21]

Hi Luchana!

So much joy during and after our conversation today… thank you!!

let's dig here and make a simple exercise:

Go and make a cup of tea or coffee. I mean literaly.
As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of going to the kettle, switching it on, getting the cup (etc) when you control the process?

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?
Do you choose putting or not putting milk or sugar into the tea (or coffee)?
Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?
Do you 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?
Can a chooser be located?

I did this practice with a lot of things today. Going to the bathroom, eating, “choosing” off a menu, playing with my kids, doing make up - it is seen that a desire just appears, for example, about ordering off a menu. Oh, that food “resonates”…and that’s what’s chosen, effortlessly. Sure, a thought might follow about why… but it doesn’t matter. Kissing just happens and laughter with playing with kids… no one is deciding how to play where and when… just a spontaneous movement or sounds or words appearing even. I notice, oh those words just appeared - no speaker, no one choosing which words- they just come. When the waitress asks what do you want to drink, thinking might appear about options… a word comes, tea, then she brings the box of choices, scanning the flavors, and landing on one. I can’t find a chooser anywhere!

Much love,
Nikkie

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkie.

you did a very good looking.

Your reply is combined and it is related to all questions, only one is missing.

Can you look also:

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?

Much love,
Luchana

[NikkiePhil21]

Luchana,

Great meeting today!!

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically

There is no moment of choice. It happens automatically. I saw it with drink choices, and also with taking a bath and doing other activities - it just happens, then a thought comes that says I picked that kind of tea, or I choose soap before shampoo. Hmm yes while looking I could not find an actual moment of choice.

Love,
Nikkie

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkie,

There is no moment of choice. It happens automatically. I saw it with drink choices, and also with taking a bath and doing other activities - it just happens, then a thought comes that says I picked that kind of tea, or I choose soap before shampoo. Hmm yes while looking I could not find an actual moment of choice.

Nice :-)

What is NOT automatically?


Let's make another one

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?


Take your time and reply each question individually.

Great meeting today!!

:-) It was fun. I'm glad that you join.

Much love,
Luchana

[NikkiePhil21]

Luchana,

I did this practice a few times today because I kept thinking I was missing something or doing it wrong lol but literally it’s because nothing is behind the doing and I’m just laughing so hard and it…unless I’m completely missing something … but here goes my answers

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?

When I look behind what is considering the options, I find nothing lol sure, there might be an “i” thought but that’s just another thought.

Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully

Yes pros and cons are just appearing, apparently talking to each other… but more like talking to no one. Just thought that’s a why I should eat it and why I shouldn’t eat it. A fuck it thought. Just thought. Nothing is listing it. I can’t find one that lists.

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?

What made that thought appear? I couldn’t find anything that made the thought appear. I could say desire…desire for pleasure, but that is just a thought appearing as desire. And what makes desire appear? I can’t find a maker of desire either.

Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?

I can’t find the thing that made decision … I mean focus was really present and nothing was found. The thought appeared, yes I’ll eat it or no I won’t eat it.

How exactly the decision is made?

Thoughts appear about why I should or should eat it, then the thought yes I’m going to.

N

ow, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

When I look at what is it that performed the chosen action, it’s just the moving arm up to the mouth. Automatic, no effort. Just eating chocolate, can’t find someone who performs the eating.

Love, nikkie

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkie,

what a beautiful observation and investigation.

I did this practice a few times today because I kept thinking I was missing something or doing it wrong lol but literally it’s because nothing is behind the doing and I’m just laughing so hard and it…unless I’m completely missing something … but here goes my answers

Oh, nothing is wrong and nothing is missed. You are doing quite well looking at experience.

I mean focus was really present and nothing was found.

How the focus is happening in experience?


Let’s take a look at the idea that there is a someone who is focusing attention.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

Have fun :-)

Much love,
Luchana

[NikkiePhil21]

Luchana -

Thank you for all of these pointers. Too beautiful.

How the focus is happening in experience?

Let’s take a look at the idea that there is a someone who is focusing attention.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?

There is nothing moving attention. It’s rouge, anarchy, free, wild. It moves like the wind. Nothing is behind it. Nothing can’t grasp it.

Is there a focus-er?

I can’t find a focus-er. there’s just noticing, and nothing behind it

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?

There’s nothing that controls the focus. A thought arises, okay focus on the breath. And then thought drifts to other experience.

What moves attention?

Nothing is moving attention. Attention just drifts in and out and around… for no reason or purpose. I can’t find anything that moves attention.

Is thought in control of attention?

No. Thought is not in control of attention. Bc even in the absence of thought, attention appears to be looking. Hmmm thought and attention around separate though. They appear at the same time.

Love, nikkie

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkie,

You did an exellent looking.

Thank you for all of these pointers. Too beautiful.

You are most welcome :-)

Is thought in control of attention?

No. Thought is not in control of attention. Bc even in the absence of thought, attention appears to be looking. Hmmm thought and attention around separate though. They appear at the same time.

Let's look at something which may put a light here.
Pick a sensation which is present right now. Whatever it may be. And look like a hawk :-)

Is there a sensation without the noticing of it?
Is there a noticing without a senstation?
Is the noticing separate from the sensation?

Who or what make the sensation?
Who or what make the noticing?


Much love,
Luchana

[NikkiePhil21]

Luchana -

Thank you again! I’m feeling a lot of enjoyment in looking and being throughout the day. There are these sweet little gaps of nothingness…

Is there a sensation without the noticing of it?

No, sensation and noticing arise simultaneously. There’s no distance.

Is there a noticing without a senstation?

The noticing moves from sensation to sensation, without a gap. There is no noticing without sensation

Is the noticing separate from the sensation?

No. They are not separate. The seeing and the feeling happen simultaneously. A thought comes In later that says I noticed that… or I feel that. Or thought is labeling, warm, breeze, etc, after the sensation. But the noticing and sensation are the same.

Who or what make the sensation?

No one and nothing makes a sensation. Sensation appears.

Love , Nikkie


Who or what make the noticing?

No one is making noticing happening. Noticing is appearing to happen.

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkie,

Thank you again! I’m feeling a lot of enjoyment in looking and being throughout the day. There are these sweet little gaps of nothingness…

Sounds delicious :-)
"incorporating" looking in the daily life seems to support a lot.

Is there a sensation without the noticing of it?

No, sensation and noticing arise simultaneously. There’s no distance.

Exactly. There are not two.

No one and nothing makes a sensation. Sensation appears.

No one is making noticing happening. Noticing is appearing to happen.

You did a very good looking.

Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around. Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.

Is there a WHO living your life?

Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?


Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

Much love,
Luchana

[NikkiePhil21]

Luchana -

Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around. Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.

Just noticing baby being cute and just words talking to her , the sense of a self or “I” is just an after thought. The one reading this… there isn’t one, just reading and writing is happening. When speaking to people at yoga, no one was speaking… just words were happening. What joy!

Is there a WHO living your life?

Just following impulses. Make bread. Eat bread. Stare at the wall. Stare out the window. A patch of sun- warm your skin. The body-mind organism seems to like certain things, habitually, like a bath, coffee in the am, tea in the night. But I can’t find a who. Frustration with the child, a growl appears out of my mouth, scares the child, comforts the child, says sorry, moves on. No more stickiness.

Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?

Yes… thoughts come after or before an action or impulse to comment. It’s just an add-on. It’s an assumption.

Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

Wow… “something real besides a thought”… I love that phrase. I can’t find anything real to prove there’s a me accept for a thought about a me. Just hearing music and dancing, but no me deciding to dance.

Love, nikkie

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkie,

such a joy is here to read your replies!

Wow… “something real besides a thought”… I love that phrase. I can’t find anything real to prove there’s a me accept for a thought about a me. Just hearing music and dancing, but no me deciding to dance.

Oh, it is so beautiful.

What comes up now is to send you some words to read and reflect on.
Are you familiar with Bahiya Sutta (supposedly form Buddha)? – here it is for you.


Bahyia sutta

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.

Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.

Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,

and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.

As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.” (ud. 1.10)

Please read it several times, and check it in experience, line by line, if it’s true.
Let me know what you find.


Much love,
Luchana


ps. our meeting for tomorrow same time right?

L.

[NikkiePhil21]

Luchana - yes 630 for you!