Stepping in

[Birdie]

Hello, Vince!

Can you see that they originally created the idea of a self? ..and how about this one; our languages have evolved from this base, so they also reinforce (solidify) the idea of a self.

I can see that stories create the idea of self, and feelings about stories create the sense of self. And that the sense of self has something to do with ownership of the stories. Also, if a story describes me then I must be a thing, a thing which can be described. I do not believe what I really am is a thing. However, the story, Leela bumped her head, might suggest that Leela is a thing. And yes, words, languages reinforce the sense and idea of self.

I like the deconditioning model. It appears that I need to name the trigger specifically to use this one. Such as, that feeling of irritation that comes up when hubby orders me to do something. Then look for opportunities to use the technique.

On truth... Do you think that it's a thing? That it is inherently objective?
..or do you think that the most we can say is that a story ABOUT something is true (accurate)?

A situation or event seen through my filters, conditioning, habits of seeing is probably never 100% accurate. Someone else's perspective will be different. It is also that problem with words. They can point in the direction of truth, but TRUTH is beyond space/time. Talking, writing, thinking are localized within space/time.
love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Leela,

And that the sense of self has something to do with ownership of the stories.

Do you think that "ownership" and identification are the same?

It appears that I need to name the trigger specifically to use this one.

You could do this, but it isn't necessary to see the trigger to know that you have been triggered. Any unpleasant or strong emotion is a sure sign that it has happened. We don't need to identify the story to know that we are responding to one. Indeed, many of the stories that we were conditioned to respond to when we were young, now happen automatically. The response has been embedded and so the original story is no longer necessary.

A situation or event seen through my filters, conditioning, habits of seeing is probably never 100% accurate. Someone else's perspective will be different.

Yes, exactly. Everything is a unique interpretation. To the point where we are creating our (interpretation of the) world, our unique world as we go. Everybody and every thing is a projection by our brain. Created by our conditioning.

but TRUTH is beyond space/time.

If it exists, it is an unknown mystery. (just as we and everything is)

with love

vince

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Leela,

And that the sense of self has something to do with ownership of the stories.

Do you think that "ownership" and identification are the same?

It appears that I need to name the trigger specifically to use this one.

You could do this, but it isn't necessary to see the trigger to know that you have been triggered. Any unpleasant or strong emotion is a sure sign that it has happened. We don't need to identify the story to know that we are responding to one. Indeed, many of the stories that we were conditioned to respond to when we were young, now happen automatically. The response has been embedded and so the original story is no longer necessary.

A situation or event seen through my filters, conditioning, habits of seeing is probably never 100% accurate. Someone else's perspective will be different.

Yes, exactly. Everything is a unique interpretation. To the point where we are creating our (interpretation of the) world, our unique world as we go. Everybody and every thing is a projection by our brain. Created by our conditioning.

but TRUTH is beyond space/time.

If it exists, it is an unknown mystery. (just as we and everything is)

with love

vince

[Birdie]

Good Morning, Vince!

Do you think that "ownership" and identification are the same?

If I say, "I identify as a woman," I suppose I am claiming ownership of that label. That label says something about a character I call "me." So, yes, they appear to be the same.

If it exists, it [truth] is an unknown mystery. (just as we and everything is)

Listening to that sound that is always there when it is quiet, along with the refrigerator, and bird preening. Noticing breath. Receiving light, colors, shapes of things. Things that might appear to be objective, but are seen through my filters, so not objective. If truth exists, it is not witnessed by this body/mind.
Love,
Leela

[Birdie]

Hi, Vince
I don't think the website is working. I can see my latest post now that I hit reply, but it was not there when I just checked. It could be that I just do not understand how it works. Just wanted to make sure you could see it.
love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Hi Leela, good evening.

I don't think the website is working.

Yes, the web site has been playing up. i did get your last post though. I've just been busy with Christmas & family.

If I say, "I identify as a woman," I suppose I am claiming ownership of that label. That label says something about a character I call "me." So, yes, they appear to be the same.

We need to go a little deeper with this. Yes, what you say is accurate, but it is at an intellectual level. Identification has a feeling component in it. When "woman" or "Leela" is thought, does a feeling of belonging appear?

If truth exists, it is not witnessed by this body/mind.

Excellent. Yes, it is only when we speak (or think) about something can we introduce the concept of truth, so it exists only on a mental level. (although we might respond to this)
Are there any experiences that Leela has that aren't a response to thought stories?

with love

vince

[Birdie]

Hi, Vince,
Thank you for letting me know that the website is a little wonky, and that you are busy with the holidays. I hope the family time is fun.

When "woman" or "Leela" is thought, does a feeling of belonging appear?

In the past, "woman" has had a whole constellation of feelings and ideas around being part of an oppressed group. It also conjures up different hormones and body functions, and socialization from the other half of humanity. If I sense into it right now, what does being a woman mean, from the standpoint of awareness, it is irrelevant. From the same standpoint, the label "Leela" is also irrelevant.

Are there any experiences that Leela has that aren't a response to thought stories?

When paused and waiting, before the thought-stream starts up again, could be only a couple seconds, but in a deeper meditative state--longer, that open space that is there when thoughts pause. In nature, there are often surprises, seeing a flock of swans flying over once. Sometimes life takes the breath away, the sense of wonder, when I'm just in a "wow" space. When I am shocked out of ordinary, run-of-the-mill thinking, there is a pause in the thought-stream. Dance or movement can do it, when the mind is not guiding the movement, and it is just happening. Some music. Listening to Arvo Paart's Speigel im Speigel and attempting to say what it does and noticing that attempting to translate the experience takes me out of it. Looking for the experience I have had in the past does not work, either. Even though I have listened to it many times and (technically) 'know' where it is going, the speed slows down the mind, it resonates with the heart. It is possible to slip into the spaces. Only if I don't try. It pervades the space.
Love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Leela,

I hope the family time is fun.

Thankyou, Yes family time is really good.

...is also irrelevant.

Excellent. Yes, there is a big difference between stories about something and the actual something.

When paused and waiting, before the thought-stream starts up again,...

..and does it always start again?

In nature, there are often surprises, seeing a flock of swans flying over once. Sometimes life takes the breath away, the sense of wonder when I'm just in a "wow" space.

How often does this occur?

Only if I don't try.

Yes, the 'trying' corrupts it.
When one willingly surrenders to what life-ing offers, is there effort? Is there any hint of the presence of an actual self when this is present?

with love

vince

[Birdie]

Hello, Vince.
It has been a winter wonderland here--we do not get snow often, so we relish it when it comes.

..and does it always start again?

So far, the thought stream has always started up. I have no control over it. I quit trying to make it stop a long time ago.

How often does this occur?

I can't say how often surprises occur. There seems to be a higher proportion of magical surprises when I mediate outside, but then, I'm spending more time just being outside when that happens. It can also happen when outside doing stuff, and attention is pulled out of the doing towards something unrelated: geese flying over. Today I went for a long walk on nature trails in the snow. Even though I was there just to enjoy the beauty, there were no shocking moments of mind blown. I was looking for beauty, and it was everywhere. Lots of joy. When I encountered other people--big smiles--unity in wonder.

When one willingly surrenders to what life-ing offers, is there effort? Is there any hint of the presence of an actual self when this is present?

Surrender requires releasing effort. It seems that surrender often comes from efforting and then giving up the efforting, but it doesn't have to be that way. It can come from noticing some resistance or conditioning, some habit, and making the conscious choice to not engage with it, to relax back into surrender. The resistance, conditioning, or habit seems to imply the thought of a self, otherwise, what would be resisting?
I noticed a trigger this week that I could not laugh at. Then I explained to my hubby that I wanted to laugh at it,but couldn't, and as I explained it to him, I could not stop laughing, because it was so stupid. Sometimes saying it out loud to someone helps. When the trigger is in my head, it is easier to take it seriously.
Love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Leela,

It has been a winter wonderland here

That's wonder full. It's easier to appreciate novelty.

So far, the thought stream has always started up. I have no control over it. I quit trying to make it stop a long time ago.

This is excellent. How do you 'handle' the constant stream of thoughts?

Surrender requires releasing effort. It seems that surrender often comes from efforting and then giving up the efforting, but it doesn't have to be that way. It can come from noticing some resistance or conditioning, some habit, and making the conscious choice to not engage with it, to relax back into surrender.

Yes, this is a big one. How do we not do doing without doing not doing?
Surrendering doesn't have to start from a place of not surrendering.
We can anticipate our usual response to a situation and move into a welcoming surrendering by considering it as possible.
If we have stories of how it could be and they elicit agreement, then simple awareness is all that is required for it to happen.
No effort. No decisions or choice. No control. Just being mindful of possibilities.

The resistance, conditioning, or habit seems to imply the thought of a self,

They could. (or not) These are all concepts that describe responses. The self is a concept that describes...

With love

vince

[Birdie]

Hi, Vince.

How do you 'handle' the constant stream of thoughts?

I don't handle the thoughts. They are entertaining or boring, or just unconsciously coming and going. Observations, preferences, appreciations, aversions, interpretations (which can be problematic stories).

How do we not do doing without doing not doing?

My step-daughter's mom died this week, and I had sent an email that Iola read to her that ended with, 'and when you're ready, it's a simple as floating back in a sea of love.' I was touched to learn that those were the words she heard as she left her body. It has me thinking that I have heard seeing is about relaxation. So, I made a focus for my class this morning of looking for places of holding in the body and letting go (into a sea of love). Now I have a little spasm in my right hip, and it is unresponsive to stretches. And, I have been letting go where the body is responsive to letting go. 'How do we not do doing without doing not doing?' Stop clenching? There are some chronic areas of tightness where I can't let go, and I can stop resisting the tightness, and trying to change it. Soften in relation to it. Softening into stillness and ambient sounds. Softening into the space. Just being.

The self is a concept that describes...

The sense of separation. Without the sense of self, there is no sense of separation. The self is the construct all the specific and general cultural beliefs and conditioning hang on. Distinction in space: 'I'm over here, you're over there, and we are separate.' The self holds a tension between the past and the future. Without time and space, there cannot be a self? Self is a feature of time and space? Time, space, and self are all questionable. I had not looked at it that way before.

Love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Leela,

I don't handle the thoughts.

So I get that you have many different kinds of thoughts. Do you find that you get sucked into what the thoughts are about much?

There are some chronic areas of tightness where I can't let go, and I can stop resisting the tightness, and trying to change it. Soften in relation to it. Softening into stillness and ambient sounds. Softening into the space. Just being.

I like this. Accept it with softness. If we appreciate it's qualities without some future end result, it changes. (as does everything. Impermanence)

Self is a feature of time and space? Time, space, and self are all questionable. I had not looked at it that way before.

I hadn't either. i like it muchly. Now is devoid of past or future. It's not a time. It's a word for THIS.
The interpretation that provokes our current experiencing.
Only by overlaying THIS with created meaning or purpose, or even a mundane description can self and others come into existence.
Leela, convince me that you aren't awake already.

with great love

vince

[Birdie]

Hello, Vince.

Do you find that you get sucked into what the thoughts are about much?

When I think about the thoughts I've had today, not really sucked in to the mundane thoughts about getting stuff done, solving a problem. However, last night I really got sucked into a maelstrom. It was precipitated by reading a book by Matt Haig (he wrote The Midnight Library and How to /Stop Time[/i], two novels I really loved. This book is not a novel, it seems to be about how modern life can drive us into depression and anxiety, he has suffered with both. He started out discussing his urgent need to convince some stranger on the internet that he was right about something. When I turned out the light to go to sleep, something that I have felt a need to lobby for in my intentional community came roaring back. The desire to prevent bird predation by cats on our land is dear to my heart. Our community appears to be back-tracking on its previous commitment to try to prevent predation. I think about this a lot, but not usually with that kind of fury. That way of thinking got the adrenaline going and made it more difficult to sleep. This happens with far less frequency than it used to. And it can still happen. (I think this book, Notes on a Nervous Planet, is going in a different direction, I just need to get further along.) So, I got on the crazy-train and I could feel the anxious energy, knowing the chemicals are in my blood stream. I tried to LovingKindness my way out of it. Eventually, I went to sleep.

Accept it with softness. If we appreciate it's qualities without some future end result, it changes. (as does everything. Impermanence)

Yes, and the pain eventually changed. It does not stay the same. Often goes away. Not there until I looked for it just now, then just a hint that came and went.

Only by overlaying THIS with created meaning or purpose, or even a mundane description can self and others come into existence.

There was a recent discussion that I did not contribute to about meaning and purpose and I wanted to throw this out there: In mental health evaluations (I recently completed one for a new doctor) the question: does your life have meaning and purpose? comes up. I always say, "Yes." I have never known a meaning or purpose that I can describe, however, there is no lack of meaning and purpose. The lack of meaning and purpose is typically a symptom of depression. I think a better description of the sense (instead of meaning and purpose) is there a trust in life.

Leela, convince me that you aren't awake already.

1. I can still get on the crazy-train (see above). The crazy-train is driven by conditioning, and I do understand that conditioning does not unravel all at once. And I am reminded of the Rumi poem, The Guest House
This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.

A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
As an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they’re a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing and invite them in.
Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.

— Jalaluddin Rumi, translation by Coleman Barks (The Essential Rumi)

2. Many people have judgments about me, and none of them would think, "She's awake," if they even know what that is. The thought/belief that others might notice anything different, including my hubby (who does not believe in awakening) is probably a block to awakening.
(And I found it somewhat irritating when I went to a workshop/retreat with an awakened person and someone in attendance blah-blah-blahed seeking validation of their awakeness from the teacher, when I wanted to know "what is it like to see the way you do?" Now that I think of it, the steady stream of people wanting solutions to personal problems, many of which are better dealt with in therapy, followed by the validaton seeker turned me off to going to workshops with awakened folks, so I have not done that in years.) I have judgment about seeking validation of awakeness. Perhaps this is a block to awakening. And on the other hand, seeking validation from an authority outside of myself, is an acknowledgement of my sense of separation.

3. While I used to have stronger opinions than I do now, and often hold opinions lightly, sometimes something comes up that I have strong attachment to, such as the right of birds to live without being preyed on by my neighbor's cats. The situation has occupied mental energy for a while. It is disappointing to see cats trot off with birds I have been feeding, and raiding their nests. I won't stand in the way of the community having a more liberal cat policy, but I will express my thoughts about it, and it is an unpopular opinion. I have the belief that to be awakened means not caring one way or the other. I also think that perhaps this is a situation where I'm grasping and need to have more trust in life. I have no control, life will sort it out. And in the moment, I react by trying to spray cats with water or throw something to scare them off when I catch them in the act.

Those are the thoughts that come up today.
love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Leela, reading your post provoked a great love here. Heart expanding with exquisite pain.

I really got sucked into a maelstrom.

Do you eventually (or quickly) recognize that you are responding to a story?

This happens with far less frequency than it used to. And it can still happen.

Yes, it occasionally happens here too.

to about meaning and purpose and I wanted to throw this out there: In mental health evaluations (I recently completed one for a new doctor) the question: does your life have meaning and purpose? comes up. I always say, "Yes." I have never known a meaning or purpose that I can describe, however, there is no lack of meaning and purpose.

Brilliant. Meaning & purpose are obviously mental creations, however without those it doesn't have to be an existential hole. A great wonder at what life-ing offers ensures this.

I can still get on the crazy-train (see above). The crazy-train is driven by conditioning, and I do understand that conditioning does not unravel all at once.

Agreed. For vince, I imagine that this (the de-conditioning) will continue as long as the body continues.

Many people have judgments about me, and none of them would think, "She's awake,"

Same here. ..but that's what people do.

including my hubby (who does not believe in awakening)

Ha, my wife thinks that this is all horseshit too. She sees me losing it and throws it up as evidence that I'm not awake.
Am I awake?
i can report that every time these descriptors (awakened/liberated) are used, they are accompanied by the question about whether there is a sense of specialness or superiority.
Whether or not a 'shift' has occurred is not a matter of opinion, but to consider it is to enter storyland.
Now, this is a big one... As we have seen, story is a companion to every experience, and (almost) every experience is a response to story.
Among the many seekers that i have worked with on this forum, there have been some that i would describe as awake in every way but one. That is that they didn't believe that they are.
Consequently, they were responding to a different story, so, many of the new behaviors that would have been instilled by the brain rewiring eluded them.
What are the criteria that determine if a 'shift' has happened? (rhetorical question)
Well, most people would like to have had an epiphany-type experience. They see bells and whistles as proof that it has happened, but for many, it doesn't happen this way.
There was also a belief in seekers, that if we were to 'awaken', that these things would change instantly and completely.
The stories of perpetual bliss, may or may not be true. They are certainly not experienced here, nor in anybody that i have related to.
There was a time when even on reflection it was believed that the stories about ourselves were actual. That we were in control. That truth was a thing. That we were inherently good or bad.
If, on reflection, these things are recognized as a fallacy, if they are recognized to be illusions, then a 'shift' has happened.
At LU there is the need for this to be an experiential shift. Not just intellectual. What does that mean?
The intellectual recognitions are usually accompanied by an experiential component, but without doubt, it takes time to re-condition many years of habitual responding.
If there is a feeling component to the recognition of the illusions, then behavior changes. Responses to the illusions when they present become different.
Knowing that we don't have control over everything that happens means that we don't beat ourselves up over a perceived failure. We don't deny the consequences of it, but neither do we dwell on how it could/should have been. We move on quickly.
Can you see how carrying a story that you are not there yet, inhibits this experiential component from happening ?
This is not to say "fake it until you make it." You only have to ask yourself "do you actually grok the nature of the illusions?"
If you honestly do, then be open to the behavioral changes, the consequences of Seeing. (what is actual and what is story)
You will find that from both yourself and those around you, a resistance to change. For this reason, i advise you to not advertise what you are going through. For a while at least, only talk about it with others that have trod this path.

with love

vince

[Birdie]

Thank you, Vince! It is good to get a sense of your experience. That's funny about your wife! I hope she helps you laugh at your foibles. Even though the hubby does not believe that there is a thing called awakening (and perhaps he is correct, it is not a thing!), I can still have conversations with him about a story I'm telling myself and how I'm holding it and doing my best to look at it differently. I think he admires that. So, in his own way, he supports the work I am doing. His beliefs are not perceived as an obstacle. And he does help me laugh at myself.

Do you eventually (or quickly) recognize that you are responding to a story?

In that case, yes, and I understood that the biochemical reaction had to take its time resolving. Nothing to do but pray for relief from the suffering I caused myself by going there.

I imagine that this (the de-conditioning) will continue as long as the body continues.

There has been a discussion of the craziness around some teachers probably coming from them erroneously thinking that they are through with the work. The left-over, or undigested stuff comes out as transgressive behavior. While this is a story, it is a plausible one. Sometimes we teach by being a shining example, other times by being a horrible warning.

..but that's what people do.

Including me. When others do not live up to my expectations, I can tell myself judgmental stories about them. And a habit is to react to others judgment of me by judging them. I hope acknowledging this helps me hold those who judge me with a little more compassion. I cannot freely give of myself when I feel judged or excluded, and in other communities I have freely given so much more of myself. AND, it's OK. It was not OK when we first moved here--I hated it. After taking the Finder's Course, it became OK. I give what I feel comfortable giving. And it could all change.

descriptors (awakened/liberated) are used, they are accompanied by the question about whether there is a sense of specialness or superiority.

"I'm more enlightened than you," is a statement I have heard said to me a couple of times. My inner reaction to such a statement has been, "well, you just proved you're not." However, I would never say that to someone. I do get a whiff of superiority or exclusion from the club of those who "really know," and I shy away from those relationships. I do not think they serve me or the other people. When I hear others in my current on-line community remark about us being 'special,' I do feel uncomfortable. I have pointed out to the group that some great art can take anyone to a transcendent place, one does not need to be special to experience oneness listening to great music or poetry, or being awed by the beauty of nature. So, do I think awakeness conveys specialness--no. It is available to everyone.

Whether or not a 'shift' has occurred is not a matter of opinion, but to consider it is to enter storyland.

When I was 21 I took the est training. I understood everything they taught. No shift.
In my mid-20's I took 2 'enlightenment intensives' where we spent all weekend answering the question, "tell me who you are." I put everything I had into it. No shift, and I felt devastated because they promised an amazing shift. In my 20's, some friends (about 10 years older than me) would say things like, "if I was where you are when I was your age, I'd be enlightened by now." This was received at the time as projection, not as any kind of evidence of a 'shift.' No one would say anything like that to Leela in her 30's, 40's, or 50's. (By then, people assumed they were more enlightened than me. Ha!) So, I think I can give up waiting for a shift. There will be no shift. After the Finders Course, it was enough to just be OK, I was happier than I was before. I think the devil is in the comparison. It looks like others are having a better experience. They appear to FEEL something different than I do. I marvel at the miraculousness of how everything depends upon everything else to exist, the miracle of life. And I have been telling myself the story that someone else's experience is better, when really, THIS is all there is.

story is a companion to every experience, and (almost) every experience is a response to story.

Or perhaps the dropping of a story, or the remodeling of a story in response to growth - which is really an epiphany, of sorts.

If on reflection, these things are recognized as a fallacy, if they are recognized to be illusions, then a 'shift' has happened.

Not just looking at them differently? Seeing that everything that happened, fortunate, unfortunate, desired, undesired--all of it--brought us to here, to THIS? And that this is perfect? I can see that my story is not the only story, and it is not the TRUTH. But I don't see that it is an illusion. It is an illusion that I understood what happened. As growth happens, the story changes. The picture gets bigger. All the players could only do what they did, they had no control, and neither did I. We were playing our parts in the leela.

Can you see how carrying a story that you are not there yet, inhibits this experiential component from happening ?

Yes. Yes. Yes. This is why I shy away from relationships with folks who appear to feel superior to me (spiritually or otherwise), there is a feeling of separation, not enoughness. It can feed my feeling of 'less than' if I let it, and it is too much work to keep tabs on that. I left a small group I was working with for that reason, to be with folks who focus on their experience of awakeness, and not to be with those who are into working with and on the stories. That I think that 'someone feels superior' is a story, absolutely. I just had to go with where my goal was best served, awakening versus rolling around in the stories. So now, I meet with folks who practice discussing from where they are seeing, not with a group focused on what is wrong.

You only have to ask yourself "do you actually grok the nature of the illusions?"

When I look around the room or out the window at the trees, birds, sky, earth--I don't see an illusion. I see LIFE. The stories I tell myself are an illusion. Some stories are helpful and some are not. Last night in class I tried something new, I invited everyone to feel that feeling you get when something is so darn cute, you just want to squeeze it--then squeeze different parts of the body with that feeling. It is a story. A happy story. Must all stories be declared an illusion to be free? I think the illusory stories are any story that invites misery and the sense of separation. Is a story that invites the feeling of love the same?
Love,
Leela