I am ready to take a honest look inside me

[nestori]

Nestori,

You're doing great. I can see you're putting a lot of time, thought and effort into this.
This is very good. You are very close.
-
I is just a thought.
No doer can be found with true looking.
Life just happens.
We can say it's life, lifeing.
-
Ilona has said this:
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.

Sounds true. Feels true. Sounds common sense. I can not produce any arguments. This sentence actually caused some bodily sensations in me.

You're describing some confusion which is very normal.
In your relationships, answers, thinking.
Things are being rearranged.
The I will resist to stay in charge.
Just notice this as it happens.

Let's not get into choice, destiny, free will and all that. Who knows really...
Let's just say for now that Life happens. This we can see. There is a flow.
Go with it.

Thank you. This is also what I feel in my heart. We don't need to work life out. The need came actually to say something in philosophical discussions. It is nothing really.

There is no I running the show. Never was.

Currently feels very strange. I feel everything is very obvious... and at the same time I feel that "it can't be this obvious". I think am waiting for a feeling that I have 100% no doubt that separate self does not exist. Is this "wish" reasonable or should I throw away all expectations?

Just let go of any expectations. Things will unfold as they do.

I have been thinking the control question quite a lot. Possibly all my life. It seems and feels that I am in control but I dare to say that things are not always (never?) what they seem. So I definitely can't say that I don't know whether there is someone separate entity in control or not.

Let's take another look here.
Look with your direct experience here.
Is there an entity in control?
Look with all your senses and see if you can find one.
Stop thinking, and use all your 5 senses to look for it.
Can you find anything?

Scanned the whole body from head to toes. Nothing. Used all five senses. Everything reports back to observer. No tangible I can't be located. Felt some tears, laughter and emotions when doing this.

Could you clarify what you exactly mean with this exercise. Do you mean that I could do something and then write down if I could find a separate entity that would control the doing? Anyhow, this is what I did.
By observing my life couple of days, it indeed feels that things happen themselves. Sometimes I have thoughts that
something should happen...and sometimes it goes that way BUT sometimes very differently. At certain times, I have felt that my legs move by themselves and I can't be in control, I couldn't control all the millions of miracles that the moments bring. I might blur my vision and distract my clear seeing but control there is not.

Yes, great noticing here.
Things happen. By themselves.

What if there really is no I living you?
What if it is just life?

Then everything would be in peace. No need to change anything. There is no need for "me" to take care of myself. No need to particular things to happen to make anyone happy. No real birth or death. Life unfolding through you. What a relief really.

I can also report that lately I have been feeling good, peace and stillness. dependless where I am. It feels quite often that I could just sit here where I am for the rest of my life and "die". Everything is fine. I would rather be a free beggar than a richest man in the world trapped in mind. I understand perfectly the myth that "enlightened beings" sit "happily" in cave for the rest of their life. However, I don't want to fixate to these thoughts either to change any circumstances or anything. But life just feels good.

How can I finish this? Can "I" never finish this?

-Nestori

[Bill]

Great work Nestori,

It looks like you've seen.
For me and a lot of others, its like it was right under our nose, but not noticed.
This is so very simple.
There's no I, just what's going on, right here and now.
But how we complicate that.
Seeing the I as only being just another thought, among many thoughts is the key.
And everyday life is still here and goes on.
Yet there has been a definite perception change.
Good for you!!

I want to ask you the questions we ask everyone at the end of the dialogue.
Your answers to these will help shake out anything we might have missed or
also bring out anything that needs to be looked at further.
Give it your best on these, take the time to answer each fully.
Other guides will take a look and give feedback.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

[nestori]

Hi Billy,

Your words shocked me a bit. The first reaction to this was "how could it be like so that I have seen, there must something more I can do - too simple", however, I can see the how absurd the whole sentence is. How doing could help to stop doing? I indeed feel - and see that it is obvious - that there is no separate self, but I hesitate to write that I know it. The lucky thing is that the reality, or truth, doesn't change whether I write something or not.

I am ready to accept that I have seen or that my words have been empty. I hope the actuality will reveal it, and why wouldn't it. I'll try to answer honestly to your questions later tonight.

And thank you so much that you have been available so far! It is really precious.

-Nestori

[nestori]

Great work Nestori,

It looks like you've seen.
For me and a lot of others, its like it was right under our nose, but not noticed.
This is so very simple.
There's no I, just what's going on, right here and now.
But how we complicate that.
Seeing the I as only being just another thought, among many thoughts is the key.
And everyday life is still here and goes on.
Yet there has been a definite perception change.
Good for you!!

I want to ask you the questions we ask everyone at the end of the dialogue.
Your answers to these will help shake out anything we might have missed or
also bring out anything that needs to be looked at further.
Give it your best on these, take the time to answer each fully.
Other guides will take a look and give feedback.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Here are my answers. I don't have any want or need to say I have realized something if I have not. I have no interest to live in any illusion anymore. I wish that you are strict and give guidance if something smells (like you probably would).

1.) I would say it is "kind of a real". In one's subjective reality. But nothing real needs believing in it to keep it not falling apart. "Me" can't stand honest observation, it can't be invited to witness box. Nobody has ever seen it. It has never actually done anything that could be proven by any, even scientific, measurements. So the answer is... it was kind of a real, when there is belief, but in the end... there is no me and there never was.

2.) Part of this might be Mooji's theory, but anyhow it is what I feel in my heart. It is just a story, but, one could say that some stories might be more accurate than others. First there is consciousnesses, secondarily there is body and thoughts, which just happen. The consciousnesses, for some reason, identifies with body and mind and the separate self is born. As this happens collectively, illusion enhances illusion. So "separate self" is possibly just a thought backed up by "belief-energy". It "part of" consciousness in the end, but it has to brought to light,.

I could say it starts by assuming that there is "me", nobody ever questions that. Then there is a "process" which tends to own everything. Experiences, concepts, theory, things. If they are not own by "me", they are owned by someone else. These concepts keeps "me" alive along with the fact that it is never questioned. The "me" always wants to go "somewhere there" but tries to avoid looking to itself if anyhow possible.

3.) Little bit difficult question. I am not sure anymore what feeling means and what is actually caused by "seeing". Could I dare to say that kind of a it feels that nothing is changed. Or maybe very subtle change in perception. But everything is at ease. No need to hide. No need for particular things to happen. No need to plan so much, I can often be internally quiet and just see what "the body does". The others don't seem to have separate self. It seems that I can also let severe distractions, breakage of attachments and emotions come up and still be somehow in peace. Vision and hearing is the same, however I somehow see and hear the stillness behind all and not necessarily so much what is manifesting.

4. I hope I understood this question correctly. Do you mean, interested in liberation and "my experiences"? I think there is nothing that would be difficult to explain to anybody with common sense. Basically the moment will bring the words so it is quite hard to say beforehand without the context. Anyhow, I might use some analogies like:
-If you think about your life, the "me" hasn't actually done anything. If you make coffee to yourself, did the "me" do it? It comments all the time and takes credit but what part of "me" actually made the coffee?
-Nothing real needs believing in order to keep it from falling apart. Like owning something is a collective agreement. Many people just think that you own a car and that is how it works. When you look more closely, what part of you owns the car? Maybe that part can't be located, maybe there is not "you" actually.
-Mind makes plans and feels that it is in control all the time. But is there a real control? Can you say that you are alive tomorrow? Are you 100% sure what happens in 5 seconds. If it happens, is it anyhow affected what happens in your mind?

5. I have somehow seen how there never time to stop for the mind. There is always a next book and next seminar and after that there might be some time in calendar for liberation. Never now. Also the contrast of having had several "non-dual" or "spiritual" experiences and getting back to mind-world was so big difference that I was completely fed up. Could I dare to say, however, that this seeing is not a state or experience, there wasn't any "taste of this" beforehand. Although signing up here brought little bit fear, I also like the idea that nothing real doesn't vanish by direct looking so I felt that "let's finish this, let there be separate self or not, can't I just take a honest look".

I somehow feel, that I should now read the book you indicated and "marinate" in this seeing, just for sure or something. Any comments about this?

-Nestori

[Bill]

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Nestori,
I am happy for you!
Your answers are clear and to the point.
I just had a couple follow ups to a few questions.
Don't worry, if I thought you weren't clear or were BSing, I'd tell you!
I like what you've written here.
It seems clear to me you have seen.

2.) Part of this might be Mooji's theory, but anyhow it is what I feel in my heart. It is just a story, but, one could
say that some stories might be more accurate than others. First there is consciousnesses, secondarily there is body and thoughts, which just happen. The consciousnesses, for some reason, identifies with body and mind and the separate self is born. As this happens collectively, illusion enhances illusion. So "separate self" is possibly just a thought backed up by "belief-energy". It "part of" consciousness in the end, but it has to brought to light,. I could say it starts by assuming that there is "me", nobody ever questions that. Then there is a "process" which tends
to own everything. Experiences, concepts, theory, things. If they are not own by "me", they are owned by someone else. These concepts keeps "me" alive along with the fact that it is never questioned. The "me" always wants to go "somewhere there" but tries to avoid looking to itself if anyhow possible.

for #2 - Yes, I see where you are going with this....
Can I ask you to tell me for yourself, how did the me or I start?
Look at your early years. How did it start, develop and continue?

5. I have somehow seen how there never time to stop for the mind. There is always a next book and next seminar and after that there might be some time in calendar for liberation. Never now. Also the contrast of having had several "non-dual" or "spiritual" experiences and getting back to mind-world was so big difference that I was completely fed up. Could I dare to say, however, that this seeing is not a state or experience, there wasn't any "taste of this" beforehand.
Although signing up here brought little bit fear, I also like the idea that nothing real doesn't vanish by direct looking
so I felt that "let's finish this, let there be separate self or not, can't I just take a honest look".

On this #5 question, what we are looking for is during the process of your being here and doing this, what was it that 'pushed you into seeing'? Was there anything particular that helped or made you look? There may not have been, that's OK too.

I somehow feel, that I should now read the book you indicated and "marinate" in this seeing, just for sure or something. Any comments about this?

Yes, by all means go ahead and read the Gateless Gatecrashers book.
You will find your dialogue would fit right in there with the others.
It is a book of dialogues of people who have done the 'direct pointing'.
We also have a Facebook group for aftercare that people come for a place to talk after this.
I will have the other guides look at this and your answers to the above and get back to you soon.
It seems clear to me you have seen thru the illusion.
Let's see the answers to the above questions and if any of the other guides have any questions or feedback.

Great work on your part!

Namaste,
Bill

[nestori]

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Nestori,
I am happy for you!
Your answers are clear and to the point.
I just had a couple follow ups to a few questions.
Don't worry, if I thought you weren't clear or were BSing, I'd tell you!
I like what you've written here.
It seems clear to me you have seen.

Thank you so much Billy. I am happy for me also. :) I will actually take a stance that I have seen the false I and answer from there. It doesn't hurt reality. Life or reality would anyhow clean my lies and false assumptions - like it has been doing for whole "my life".

2.) Part of this might be Mooji's theory, but anyhow it is what I feel in my heart. It is just a story, but, one could
say that some stories might be more accurate than others. First there is consciousnesses, secondarily there is body and thoughts, which just happen. The consciousnesses, for some reason, identifies with body and mind and the separate self is born. As this happens collectively, illusion enhances illusion. So "separate self" is possibly just a thought backed up by "belief-energy". It "part of" consciousness in the end, but it has to brought to light,. I could say it starts by assuming that there is "me", nobody ever questions that. Then there is a "process" which tends
to own everything. Experiences, concepts, theory, things. If they are not own by "me", they are owned by someone else. These concepts keeps "me" alive along with the fact that it is never questioned. The "me" always wants to go "somewhere there" but tries to avoid looking to itself if anyhow possible.

for #2 - Yes, I see where you are going with this....
Can I ask you to tell me for yourself, how did the me or I start?
Look at your early years. How did it start, develop and continue?

Actually, when I had strong no-self experience couple weeks ago, my first thought was "My god, I have known this since I was a child". There is actually some feeling, or deeper knowing which was always static regardless of the "age" or "situation" of this body. I remember feeling "completely" free and good when I was a child. After going to school and being introduced to requriements, I eventually felt disconnected and intuitively figured out that something is wrong. But I remember having a thought "I guess, this is how it goes, there must be something wrong in me, I'll try to fit in". It worked somehow fine about 20 years but again there was a feeling "something is wrong".

How did it start in the beginning... I have really no absolute answer but somehow I feel it could be related to control-expectations and language. Somehow I remember flashes like control "no you can't do that BUT that is ok". There was language "me, you, me, you, us, others...". Expectations like "If you do this and this, you will end up and I am expecting you to do..." It seems that I am referring now to "others who caused it" but after closer look it leads to the "fact" that there never were others, all were just thoughts, it was nobodys fault, it just happened. It is fine.

5. I have somehow seen how there never time to stop for the mind. There is always a next book and next seminar and after that there might be some time in calendar for liberation. Never now. Also the contrast of having had several "non-dual" or "spiritual" experiences and getting back to mind-world was so big difference that I was completely fed up. Could I dare to say, however, that this seeing is not a state or experience, there wasn't any "taste of this" beforehand.
Although signing up here brought little bit fear, I also like the idea that nothing real doesn't vanish by direct looking
so I felt that "let's finish this, let there be separate self or not, can't I just take a honest look".

On this #5 question, what we are looking for is during the process of your being here and doing this, what was it that 'pushed you into seeing'? Was there anything particular that helped or made you look? There may not have been, that's OK too.

Again, the linearity in memory and understanding seems to be fading. Difficult to say what phenomenon caused another. If one could, then it would mean there are separate entities in life. Anyhow it feels like it needs "another" who directs the attention or gives permission (to give permission to myself?) to look. Knife can't cut itself or something. What maybe resonated the most were your writings about that "I can't predict my next thought" which makes it obvious that I am not in anyhow control. Another which really hit "me" was this Ilona's sentence "I is a belief, thought doesn't think itself". Basically it just feels that I have known this already but didn't have... words, or how do you say, clear seeing of it. You pointed out how it is (there is no self, just thoughts and life happening) and something (28 years of intuition, past experiences, honest thinking etc.) recognizes how everything fits and is in harmony. I don't know why, but Einstein's famous statement "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts" came to my mind now. Everything starts by a "fact" that, "there is me" and that is never questioned. Doesn't work very well after that as we know :)

I somehow feel, that I should now read the book you indicated and "marinate" in this seeing, just for sure or something. Any comments about this?

Yes, by all means go ahead and read the Gateless Gatecrashers book.
You will find your dialogue would fit right in there with the others.
It is a book of dialogues of people who have done the 'direct pointing'.
We also have a Facebook group for aftercare that people come for a place to talk after this.
I will have the other guides look at this and your answers to the above and get back to you soon.
It seems clear to me you have seen thru the illusion.
Let's see the answers to the above questions and if any of the other guides have any questions or feedback.

Great work on your part!

Namaste,
Bill

Thank you so much! (As you probably understand, Im quite confused what that means anymore. "Who thanks who?", but I guess that is what is supposed to say at this point. :)) It is hard, or impossible to express my gratitude towards you, life. Life is gratitude. I am grateful for life and that you were available.

-Nestori

[Bill]

Hello Nestori,

You are all confirmed by the fellow guides.
Great work here on the forum you did most all of it on your own, which is
really how it always is. Thanks for your willingness to take a deep look
and answer all the questions thoroughly.
It was a pleasure to work with you.

So now you will notice you are blue in color.
There are a few extra places on the website that are opened up to you.
I have sent you an email with some other info.


Take care and we will see you in the Unleashed FB group and
the Unleashed section of this website.
There are a few other groups too, once you get there I'd be happy to point
them out.
And if you are interested in guiding at some point in the future, just let
us know.
Very nice to work with you and I'm very happy for you. Glad it all worked.
If there's any questions, get a hold of me, or post back here.

Namaste,
Bill