Almost there

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,
Thanks for persisting with me.

Is there “someone” noticing ?
Look at “intention” and describe it for me.
Do you see a mind ? if so, describe it for me.

Intention is a thought, with another underlying thought that someone is having that intention.
Mind is a bundle of thoughts or a continuous flow of thoughts.
Now, I can’t see thoughts or mind, as a direct experience. Does that mean that thoughts don’t exist? I find it difficult to accept. Even this acceptance or non-acceptance is thought only.

It is not an intellectual exercise. You said “there is still a witness” then “ there is witnessing happening”. Do you see the difference between these two expressions ? Look deeply at the first expression :is there a witness there ? Look with your five senses. What do you see there ?

Both “there is still a witness” and “ there is witnessing happening” are thoughts. The difference perhaps is in how they are expressed. The first one gives more sense of ‘someone’ being a witness.
With my five senses I can’t see a witness, nor can I see a thought “there is witnessing happening’ . So the root question is: Do thoughts exist, even though I can’t perceive them with my five senses. My experience is that I can’t deny the existence of thoughts. And the underlying sense of ‘me’ is also a thought. Somehow I can’t move beyond this.

Regards.
Pankaj

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

Intention is a thought, with another underlying thought that someone is having that intention.

Yes.

Mind is a bundle of thoughts or a continuous flow of thoughts.
Now, I can’t see thoughts or mind, as a direct experience. Does that mean that thoughts don’t exist? I find it difficult to accept. Even this acceptance or non-acceptance is thought only.

Thoughts are seen but as you said a mind does not exist as such but it is a bundle of thoughts.

Both “there is still a witness” and “ there is witnessing happening” are thoughts. The difference perhaps is in how they are expressed. The first one gives more sense of ‘someone’ being a witness.

Yes, great observations.

With my five senses I can’t see a witness, nor can I see a thought “there is witnessing happening’ . So the root question is: Do thoughts exist, even though I can’t perceive them with my five senses. My experience is that I can’t deny the existence of thoughts. And the underlying sense of ‘me’ is also a thought. Somehow I can’t move beyond this.

Yes, you cannot see a thought with your five senses but there is knowing of thoughts, OK. Now, can a though, even a "me" thought, know other thoughts ? If the answer is no, look at What is knowing the thoughts and stay there for a moment.


Best wishes

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem

Now, can a though, even a "me" thought, know other thoughts ? If the answer is no, look at What is knowing the thoughts and stay there for a moment.

The ‘me’ thought is a bit different. It not only exists as a bundle of thoughts but seems to be also interwoven in all/most other thoughts. But still, a thought knowing other thoughts doesn’t make sense. What would 'knowing' even mean in this context, I am not sure. However, I can’t deny the knowing of thoughts. I can’t define what it means and I can’t put a finger on it but it undeniably happens. We can call it awareness.

Regards.
Pankaj

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

The ‘me’ thought is a bit different. It not only exists as a bundle of thoughts but seems to be also interwoven in all/most other thoughts. But still, a thought knowing other thoughts doesn’t make sense. What would 'knowing' even mean in this context, I am not sure.

Knowing = being aware. That is the meaning used during this dialog.

However, I can’t deny the knowing of thoughts. I can’t define what it means and I can’t put a finger on it but it undeniably happens. We can call it awareness.

Yes, awareness = being aware = being knowing. Whatever it is called, IT IS prior to appearances, prior to thoughts. What is this "I" which cannot put a finger on awareness ? LOOK.


Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,

Knowing = being aware. That is the meaning used during this dialog.

OK. Yes, a thought can not be aware of another thought. The awareness property is not there in a thought.

Yes, awareness = being aware = being knowing. Whatever it is called, IT IS prior to appearances, prior to thoughts. What is this "I" which cannot put a finger on awareness ? LOOK.

"I" is a thought only and I can see why it can't put a finger on awareness. A thought can not be aware of awareness. But awareness is always aware of thoughts or a better way to say would be: there is always an awareness of thoughts. "I" is one of those thoughts and an important one as all other thoughts originate from it. "I" can't be aware of itself because it doesn't have that capability of being aware. Anything I say starting with "I" - is a thought, including this one. Ah!.

When I am lost in other thoughts - it is "I" thought which is moving as attention. In this sense, "I" is another name for attention.
Wherever be the attention, it can never be on awareness because awareness is not a thing. But attention can not be outside awareness.

Regards.
Pankaj

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

Great observations.

Do you have control on thoughts arising ?
Can you choose which though to arise ?
is there a thinker ?

Take a big look and elaborate your answers.

Thank you

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,

Do you have control on thoughts arising ?
Can you choose which though to arise ?
is there a thinker ?

The last question ‘Is there a thinker is more important than the previous two. If there is no thinker, there is no question of having control over thoughts or choosing the thoughts. I know the intellectual answer that there is no ‘I” who thinks. In other words, there is no thinker and therefore no one is there to have control over thoughts.

Now, who is this ‘I’ who knows the intellectual answer? Perhaps the more correct way to say is that there is an awareness that it is an intellectual answer.

If this has to become an experiential answer, who would have that experience?
In spite of all this, there is a strong sense of ‘I’ which may be a thought.

At the same time, at some level, there is complete peace and there is no need to answer all this. In fact, trying to answer makes the water muddier.

Regards.
Pankaj

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

You are making logical thinking about this stuff. In the first post, you agreed to follow the rules of this forum : one of them is LOOKING AT DIRECT EXPERIENCE. This means that there is what is SEEN, what is HEARD, what is SMELT, what is TASTED, what is FELT (touch, sensations) and what is KNOWN (as thoughts, emotions, ....). In your answers, you speak about intellectual understanding, there is a need to go further and SEE that there is no separate self, no Pankaj. To SEE this, exercises must be done honestly without going to thoughts.

This is another exercise about observing thoughts :
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you go.


Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Okay Warrissem, I will try these exercises and will come back in a couple of days.

Regards.
Pankaj

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warrissem,

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

I found it difficult to find the gap between the thoughts. For me, thoughts are more like multi-layered clouds, they keep on changing shapes continuously. They don’t look to be in a sequence where I can wait and observe the gap between two thoughts. There seems to be a continuity in thoughts. Even this intention of keeping a note of the thoughts and looking for the gap - itself is a thought which fills the gap if any.

Having said that, I must admit that I am quite busy these days to give dedicated time for a long duration for this, as I am on a vacation with family and attending many family functions and events.

So if it makes sense, I would give it another try after Dec 6th and come back to you once again.

Thanks and regards.
Pankaj

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

Are you really interested in seeking ?

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,

Are you really interested in seeking ?

Well, I am interested but not desperate.
What is the purpose of this question?

Regards.
Pankaj.

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

I mean, looking for "the illusion of a separate self, that there is no you in any shape or forrm", is not a game. I see, that you are not fully committed to this seeking : you come to the forum at your leisure time. It does not work like this : the flow of LOOKING at direct experience has to be continuous 24/7, that is why I invited you to come every day or at least once per two days in the forum. I know that you have work to do and take care eventually of children but it is the way it works.

Best wishes

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,
Thanks for your support, in spite of my irregularities.
You are right. In the last one week, I have been not regular on the forum. In the hindsight I think I should have started on the forum after my planned vacation.
I do keep my looking 24 hours( or at least waking hours). It is the writing on the forum which takes a dedicated time and I miss it when I am otherwise busy.
Anyways your pointings have been very useful and I will continue with them as much as possible.

Thanks once again.
Regards.
Pankaj.

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

Take it easy.

Warissem