The Gate

So tell me, these interpretations that your brain comes up with, the things that you respond to in your daily life, can you recognize them as the story of Ashton?

This is something I need to work more towards in terms of actually seeing sensations this way at the time they arise, but yes. This doesn't happen in daily life so to speak, only mainly when you ask questions and I look (or through some spurts of the day).

The contents of this story, the details outlined in every chapter about how Ashton works, the stuff that he identifies with, including the confusion (the knot), how did they get created?

Honestly, through lack of questioning or lack of investigating. It seems that the confusion comes about when these sensations are not properly looked into, but when they are, these sensations seem more independent if you will.

The thoughts are the stickiest ones of them all, and especially hard to "discern", especially when they are automatic, and im not looking. But as for the 5 sense doors, these get discerned a lot better. I can tell the thoughts are as well, even the thoughts that contain "I", "my", "me", "you", "we". They are starting to be seen better as just another sensation that happens on its own, but again, not continuously throughout the day, but definitely an amount im happy with lol

Ash

Good evening Ash,

This is something I need to work more towards..

Ok, STOP! You don't need to work on this at all. Working is counterproductive.
It strengthens the illusion that control is actual when it isn't.
Let's investigate control and put this puppy to bed.
Firstly, we'll group control with decisions and choice. All illusions that they are manipulated by a self.
Using memory, when you walked over to the chair to sit and use your device to respond to my post, did you tell your feet where to step, or did walking just happen?
If at the time you decided that you could have chosen to do it differently or not done it, that would be after it happened wouldn't it?
If thoughts about doing it now or doing it later happened, they would have been triggered by something else, right.
Given the circumstances present at the time, could it have happened any other way than the way it did?

in terms of actually seeing sensations this way at the time they arise,

We do want to encourage the seeing of these things as they happen.
To be more specific, we want to recognize when we get lost in the contents of a thought story.
Here’s a story about conditioning (habit) and how to change it.
In the brain, the neuronal pathways (created by synaptic connections) that are used repeatedly are enhanced. They are made stronger and more efficient by frequent use.
When we become aware that they are no longer useful, there are two ways that they can be decommissioned.
They can be pruned or they can atrophy from lack of use.
Neither of these seems to be able to be consciously controlled, but we can indirectly affect change.
Firstly, observe an intent to change.
Secondly, when awareness of that undesirable happening occurs - laugh. Anything from a loud guffaw to a smile, or even a mental chuckle. This thwarts the completion of the old behavior and robs it of the satisfaction factor. It also floods the body with feel-good hormones.
& thirdly, imagine the new neuronal pathway being established that replaces the undesirable one.
On the second point.. the awareness of the habitual response. You will come to recognize triggers. Usually, some intense emotion will arise in response to a situation.
In a fairly short time, you will come to recognize that a trigger has happened but the response to it is short-circuited by the awareness of it. It simply won't eventuate and you will see the new response (a chuckle) happen instead.

The contents of this story, the details outlined in every chapter about how Ashton works, the stuff that he identifies with, including the confusion (the knot), how did they get created?

through lack of questioning or lack of investigating.

Hmm, i was more thinking of the historical aspect. You were conditioned. ..are conditioned. Brainwashed. "Ashton is a lovely baby." "Ashton likes this." "Ashton doesn't like that."
Then there is language. It divide the world up into subject, object ,verb, and adjective etc. It is totally divisive and creates our reality. Especially I, me, mine, you, your etc.
There is a lifetime of teaching you how to perceive the world. This is how your brain has been wired.

But as for the 5 sense doors, these get discerned a lot better

It's the sixth one where we most need to focus at the moment.

They are starting to be seen better as just another sensation that happens on its own, but again, not continuously throughout the day,

Good stuff. ..and yes, they won't ever be continuously seen. You wouldn't be able to function if they were. The organism is efficient when making much of our operating automatic.
We just need to recognize the ones that are maladaptive.

with love

vince

Using memory, when you walked over to the chair to sit and use your device to respond to my post, did you tell your feet where to step, or did walking just happen?

No, the walking just happened. And better yet, I know exactly what you're pointing to about how there is no control, basically like this:

Even if I were to "plan ahead" where I want to step, it still isn't control, its actually several independent sensations happening on their own, but it gets confused as control.

For example, with the whole idea of planning where to walk, it occurs like this: First there is a thought sensation of wanting to walk a certain way (which happened on its own, ie, no control), and then if that thought was strong enough/agreeable, the actual walking happens on its own. They all just happen independently. The whole basis for it to occur was a thought which is a slippery slope, because there is no control.

It could actually have started sooner than that as well. You may witness someone walking a certain way to avoid an obstacle, and then the thought happens, then you walk. But this is even slippier, because, there is absolutely no control in terms of the placement/setting you were in to have observed someone walking a certain way to avoid an obstacle, which would be the basis for everything that follows. (Sorry, super long winded).

On a sidenote, id like to say that the illusion of control still persists rather strongly in day to day life, but I can experientially see how it is wrong view when I have the time and patience to dissect it all apart.

If at the time you decided that you could have chosen to do it differently or not done it, that would be after it happened wouldn't it?

Yes, and that reflection itself is a sensation, that also demonstrates no control. It only occurs after the initial thought and following actions take place, but then, a new thought comes in after the action was completed (either midway of upon full completion) that is more agreeable than the initial thought that prompted the initial actions. Super slippery slope to go down, but pretty much how it is when it gets thoroughly dissected. (Obviously a lot of these answers involve thought content, but is using de as the basis)

If thoughts about doing it now or doing it later happened, they would have been triggered by something else, right.
Given the circumstances present at the time, could it have happened any other way than the way it did?

HA! YES. This is exactly what I said up above, just couldn't figure out how to say it so short and concise like you did.

we can indirectly affect change.
Firstly, observe an intent to change.
Secondly, when awareness of that undesirable happening occurs - laugh. Anything from a loud guffaw to a smile, or even a mental chuckle. This thwarts the completion of the old behavior and robs it of the satisfaction factor. It also floods the body with feel-good hormones.
& thirdly, imagine the new neuronal pathway being established that replaces the undesirable one.

Thank you for this, I've read a decent amount on this stuff and know exactly what you are talking about, but I can tell I like your method way better than any others ive heard of. I can tell this is going to be my new go-to for changing reaction patterns to certain things :)

You will come to recognize triggers. Usually, some intense emotion will arise in response to a situation.
In a fairly short time, you will come to recognize that a trigger has happened but the response to it is short-circuited by the awareness of it. It simply won't eventuate and you will see the new response (a chuckle) happen instead.

Yep, I recognize different triggers all the time (and I mean triggers in general, not just in the negative connotation it always gives off lol).

Even now. Sometimes thoughts (it can be any type) will be seen pretty clearly in the moment, and then the the thought just stops out of nowhere. I'll sometimes know exactly where it was leading, sometimes not, but it just stops, and is super weird.

Hmm, i was more thinking of the historical aspect. You were conditioned. ..are conditioned. Brainwashed. "Ashton is a lovely baby." "Ashton likes this." "Ashton doesn't like that."
Then there is language. It divide the world up into subject, object ,verb, and adjective etc. It is totally divisive and creates our reality. Especially I, me, mine, you, your etc.
There is a lifetime of teaching you how to perceive the world. This is how your brain has been wired

All makes sense, I think both of our views fit together like a perfect puzzle. What you said happens first, and it gets engrained, and becomes the nee operating system. And when it doesn't get questioned/investigated, the operating system persists, unless of course you investigate the established operating system. (Weird terms to use, but resonates for me haha)

It's the sixth one where we most need to focus at the moment.

Yep, and I totally see why now. It seems (through de) that thoughts always come before or after or both before and after other sensations.

It seems like when it occurs before a sensation, if not looked into properly, it engrains the mind with this idea of choice.

And when it occurs after a sensation, if not looked into properly, engrains story-making, and is used to "confirm" that there was indeed a "choice".

Good stuff. ..and yes, they won't ever be continuously seen. You wouldn't be able to function if they were. The organism is efficient when making much of our operating automatic.
We just need to recognize the ones that are maladaptive

This is nice to hear lol

Ash

Good evening Ash,

the illusion of control still persists rather strongly in day to day life, but I can experientially see how it is wrong view when I have the time and patience to dissect it all apart.

Ok, this is big. When you believe an illusion is actual, it is a delusion. When you experience an illusion, it is the senses telling you something that you know isn't actual.
So, will the illusion ever not be there? Only if you start to see how it is created. It doesn't matter that your senses tell you something if you see that it's impossible the moment you consider it.
Further, many illusions are useful. When you relate to someone who is not awake, you will talk as if many illusions are actual. You know that they are not, but to hoist that on the other person will alienate you and prevent communication.
The illusion that the world is actually out there, and not a projection by your organism is also useful for daily life.
To expect the illusions to reveal the actual is to expect your sense organs to start operating in a way that they haven't been trained to. They have been adapted to operate in a world of illusions.

if not looked into properly,

This is another big one. Because things (seem to) just happen, when we work at them, all we are doing is corrupting the happening. The stuff that we overlay the happening with distorts it. Usually, it adds unnecessary complications.
The shortest distance is a straight line. The best way to (not) handle current circumstances is to just observe. Be a witness.
Very quickly this will develop a trust that life takes care of us. (so to speak)
Consider this. By the time you become aware of current circumstances, they are already in the past. They can't be changed.
..and having no shoulds or stories about how it could have been different allows a much broader perspective. It allows wisdom to elucidate and learning possibilities to emerge.

with love

vince

Ok, this is big. When you believe an illusion is actual, it is a delusion. When you experience an illusion, it is the senses telling you something that you know isn't actual.
So, will the illusion ever not be there?

I guess to answer this, I see what you're saying. The 5 sense doors dont experience an illusion, they take experience as it is. The 6th is also just another sense door, that doesn't intrinsically experience illusion, it's just that, when the 6th generates thoughts that "hit home", or, when Im feeling tired/lazy for example, it seems as though the story making or "confirmation of decision making" hits harder. Sort of when my guard is down so to speak, and when this happens, sometimes I catch on, but it usually takes a while longer to notice.

So, I know that the senses dont intrinsically portray illusion, so long as Im hyper-aware/cognizent. But when thought sensations arise without me being hyper-aware/cognizent, the story making and buying into "decisions" happens more often. Basically, the thoughts come without being investigated, and so they slip on by, and believing into them occurs in my own de.

Now looking at your question part, in direct experience, illusion is not there. It is only thought sensations + the 5 sense doors that are there. It is just that, when thought sensations aren't seen clearly as a sensation, and are seen as a story, then this is how illusion is generated.

But again, in daily life, there's tons of thoughts that still pass by as being seen as a story, and not just a sensation (albeit, wayyyy less than before).

Because things (seem to) just happen, when we work at them, all we are doing is corrupting the happening.

To be quite honest, I disagree with this, speaking from direct experience. This whole time, I have been "working" in the basic sense. This "working" though, IS still a part of the happening. Not saying this in some mystical way, but, our conversation between us, all came to be from tons of different causes and effects prior. You had to have come to an understanding, have come to find this forum, have had an interest in it, and me as well, plus many more requisites that would be impossible to add up.

In my direct experience, I consider "working" to be just another thing that occurs in the Happening as I do "not working" or "insert any other action or non-action". Because, in order to not be working, happening took place. Whether the first sensation was overstrain, the 2nd as a thought of "i need to take a break", the third as physical pain and fatigue, and then it all leads to "not working". It's all happening from the way I experience it.

Now, I do think I see what you're trying to allude to, in that, by "working towards something", it strengthens the illusion of control even more, but, I think this can be countered by simply considering "working towards something" as just another conglomeration of various sensations, Happening.

Very quickly this will develop a trust that life takes care of us. (so to speak)
Consider this. By the time you become aware of current circumstances, they are already in the past. They can't be changed.

I see what you're saying. I'll just describe what occurs when I read what you wrote. Basically, I read what you said, and then, a thought sensation arises on what could happen if I lived life "from the backseat". And then another thought sensation arises if I were to "lived life from the frontseat". And then the dilemna arises in de: Both of these thought sensations occured, and now the illusion of choice/decision making comes in.

NOW- so far, all of this has been just a Happening. Certain life circumatances obviously allowed for 2 different thought sensations to arise. If for example my past was different, maybe only the first thought would have arose, and been taken up as the only "choice", which again, that "choice" only came about from prior cumulative experiences, so really, no choice is being made (from a chooser).

However, upon investigation, even though having 2 contradicting thought sensations is even slippier in direct experience, as this REALLY gives off the idea that there is a chooser, it still falls apart, because, again, it is the past experiences that "made" the two thoughts occur, and more importantly, the past experiences that "makes" on option stick out as better than the other one. So again, still no chooser, just a conglomeration of past experiences that makes you swing one way with more force (but only because of prior experiences), so, still no chooser.

I will say, this was very tough for me to investigate, I had to be A LOT more scrutinizing, but again, in direct experience where I am not investigating because I am caught up in daily life, things like this would be a very slippery slope, in terms of realizing there is no chooser even when 2 options (2 thought sensations) arise.

But as it always seems, about a day later from having written this response, it'll likely become easier lol.

I'll leave off the view of living life from the back or front seat, as, in my direct experience, both are still just forms of Happening. Not to say they may have differing degrees of quality of life lol, but, I think both have their merits and use cases, like a happy medium.

..and having no shoulds or stories about how it could have been different allows a much broader perspective. It allows wisdom to elucidate and learning possibilities to emerge.

Yes, and, I hate to knit pick, just sharing my own de: even the stories (thought sensations) of how it could have been different is still just another sensation to be seen. If it occurs, it occurs, but at least you can view it as a sensation versus identify with the story making.

I read your whole post before I replied to these individually (like I always do), and at first, I had some thought sensations like "man, wheres the de questions in this" and "man this is an easy one", but wow, having to do de/investigation from this reply was the toughest one yet and is really starting to get down to bare bone experience- thanks for this. It didnt look hard upon first look, but wow haha

Ash

Good evening Ash,

But again, in daily life, there's tons of thoughts that still pass by as being seen as a story, and not just a sensation

i would go as far as to say that every minute of out waking life we are responding to something.
..and further, i contend that the something is story.
Sure, there are things that we respond to automatically, without awareness, but even they (probably) had a story originally.
When the 5 sense organs get stimulated, mind rushes in to explain/describe. That's what we respond to.
When the mind responds to triggers, story arises and we respond to that.
Can you think of anything that you do that doesn't confirm this story?

So, I know that the senses dont intrinsically portray illusion,

Have a look at this page and tell me that the senses don't lie.. https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/ ... larization

To be quite honest,

Thank you. (i insist on it.)

This whole time, I have been "working" in the basic sense. This "working" though, IS still a part of the happening. Not saying this in some mystical way, but, our conversation between us, all came to be from tons of different causes and effects prior. You had to have come to an understanding, have come to find this forum, have had an interest in it, and me as well, plus many more requisites that would be impossible to add up.

i couldn't agree more with the bolded part. ..although "cause and effect" need investigating (later) It's the working part that needs examining now.
Do you feel that you have made decisions and choices to activate an intent?
How many of those "many more requisites that would be impossible to add up" were involved in your workings?

In my direct experience, I consider "working" to be just another thing that occurs in the Happening

Hmm, ok. Maybe we just have a communication issue here. Yes, everything, including intent when it arises, including the illusion of control or choice, when they occur, it all happens for reasons that are far too complex to be known. (i have to say that I'm a bit concerned that you capitalize Happening like it is a thing.)

"working towards something" as just another conglomeration of various sensations

Yes, i agree. What i was saying was that they are not only unnecessary but that they distort what would happen if trust and awareness were the only thing brought to what occurs. ..but to be clear, i refer to work an effort to control a particular outcome.

If it occurs, it occurs, but at least you can view it as a sensation versus identify with the story making.

Good one. i think that we are pretty much on the same page here.

having to do de/investigation from this reply was the toughest one yet and is really starting to get down to bare bone experience- thanks for this.

You're welcome, and thank you for making me dig deeper too.
Is there any area of investigation that you would like to explore? Can you identify which parts of the knot are still tied?

with love

vince

Hey Vince

When the 5 sense organs get stimulated, mind rushes in to explain/describe. That's what we respond to.

Yes, I see this, a sense organ gets stimulated, and the mind rushes in, and then that story prompts an action, which inherently means there will be another sense organ getting stimulated.

Like just recently, my mom asked if my dog when poops this morning when I let him out. So first that was an auditory sensation, and then thoughts occurred in the form of memory, and then I said "yes".

When the mind responds to triggers, story arises and we respond to that.
Can you think of anything that you do that doesn't confirm this story?

I think when you say "triggers", its the same thing in the first question, the sense organs. So yes, just like the above example, we respond to the story/thought.

I don't think in my direct experience in the example above, that it could occur as 1. My mom asks me something, and then 2. I immedietely respond.

From what I can see so far, there has to be a thought sensation/story in between responses and actions (response being sensory stimulation, and action as in what follows, like me saying "yes" to her question)

The only time I can recall where this is not the case, is when "seeing" occurs, but ONLY during the seeing process. Of course, to get to there, there had to be thought content, same with getting out of the seeing, but during, there is no story.

Have a look at this page and tell me that the senses don't lie.. https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/ ... larization

It definitely looked like it was moving sideways/diagonal

Do you feel that you have made decisions and choices to activate an intent?

Before I answer this, I just looked in my direct experience, and, I have always figured that intent is something separate from thought. But now after looking, intent is just the thought before the action (from what I can tell).

So now to answering this, I can see that intent (a form of thought) activates an action. But decisions to spur an intent? I suppose yes from what I can tell.

I decided to make a reply, well... no. The decision leads only to an action, which leads back to a thought, which could very well be an intent so long as it is agreeable.

So no, at least, not immedietely. It occurs as a chain: thought, decision (acceptance of thought), action, and then it can keep repeating this process.

Is there any area of investigation that you would like to explore? Can you identify which parts of the knot are still tied?

The above question I replied to still doesn't make sense, and the whole there is no chooser. They still just haven't hit home yet. The cause and effect just seems more like thought content, so it doesn't hit home either, even though it is based on de.

Ash

The only time I can recall where this is not the case, is when "seeing" occurs, but ONLY during the seeing process.

Yes, it would be the case for any of the 5 senses when they are being stimulated and thoughts haven't yet arrived. .. But this is a fleeting moment, as you saw from the cup exercise. For practical purposes it seems logical to say that there is always a thought overlay to any situation.

Of course, to get there, there had to be thought content, same with getting out of the seeing, but during, there is no story.

Yes, and to communicate or describe it, even to yourself we must employ story telling.

But now after looking, intent is just the thought before the action (from what I can tell).

Yes, but it is loaded. It thoughts that have big stories attached to it. "will i succeed?", "how do i go about it?", etc. and emotions. How confident am I...

So now to answering this, I can see that intent (a form of thought) activates an action. But decisions to spur an intent? I suppose yes from what I can tell.

i'm not clear about what you are saying here. Can you expand on it?

The above question I replied to still doesn't make sense, and the whole there is no chooser. They still just haven't hit home yet.

Apparent choice happens. Apparent control happens. Apparent decisions get made, but when you look at it in detail, they are dependent on (how did you say it?) "many more requisites that would be impossible to add up."
This is a really big one.It is through this portal that i discovered oneness. (Although oneness sounds a bit cliche) i saw, and maybe these words might be a light switch for you too.
Cause and effect is story. It is conceptual. Useful but...
Another useful concept is conditions. For the sake of satisfying mind, we can say that any event requires conditions that enable it. For example, for me to be here typing these squiggles on a screen, an obvious condition is the presence of the computer. Another condition is that this organism has to have experiences that include schooling.
Going back further another condition is that my parents conceived me. ..and that they were conceived and had all of their live experiences exactly as they did to be able to have and raise me exactly as they did.
If we follow this line, then we can extrapolate back to every ancestor and the conditions that enabled them to not only procreate, but to provide the conditions for their offspring to do the same.
If we go back hundreds of generations, we can even say that some of the conditions required were the food and shelter that enabled them to provide future generations with the necessary conditions.
That food required conditions to exist. Water and nutrients.
The geology and biology were some of the conditions that that water required to be available.
Even the butterfly in the Amazon is tied in with conditions necessary for me to be here doing this.
In fact, there is nothing, no event, no anything since the beginning of existence (& maybe before this) this isn't a necessary condition for this happening. If you weren't there this wouldn't be the way it is.
As profound as this is, it is not saying that these conditions are part of something. It's like a hologram. The total is made up of totals. Every (apparent) part is everything. A single piece of stardust floating galaxies away, is a necessary condition for THIS.

with love

vince

Yes, but it is loaded. It thoughts that have big stories attached to it. "will i succeed?", "how do i go about it?", etc. and emotions. How confident am I...

I was going to ask how these examples relate to intent, but I just figured it out.

Examlple: Someone asks me if I want to go on a date, then a thought arises "How do I go about it", and then, which probably first spurs more thoughts, and then shapes the decision/action being made. That "How do I go about it" thought probably also brings up memories, and future scenarios (thoughts), and weirdly enough, may lead to physical sensations upon reflecting on memories/future scenarios. And how these are reacted to, can influence the action.

Now I've got a question with this, should these thoughts that have big stories attached to them, still just be recognized as a thought, AND/OR, should it be looked at further, in terms of how it sets the conditions for further sensations?

i'm not clear about what you are saying here. Can you expand on it?

The original question: Do you feel that you have made decisions and choices to activate an intent?

In my last response, I didn't really understand what you meant by this question, but now that you have brought up conditions, I think I now understand what you're asking better.

Yes, decisions and choices activate an intent. Decisions and choices are conditions like anything else, and can be a condition for intent.

Example: I have a thought that "I have to go pee", and it is agreeable, so it is a decision. Next, it leads to an intent, such as standing up to go to the bathroom, and then the actual action of getting up, etc.

So yes, macro decisions and choices, definitely lead to other micro-cycles of macro intentions/actions inside of the macro cycle. (If that makes sense)

Apparent choice happens. Apparent control happens. Apparent decisions get made, but when you look at it in detail, they are dependent on (how did you say it?) "many more requisites that would be impossible to add up."

Yes, it is still just hard to see this in action, and, it takes such long investigation for me to recognize it, that I simply find it nearly impossible to see this in day to day life, where time for investigation just isn't there.

Probably just a limiting belief/complete thought content, but thats just how it seems for me lol

I saw, and maybe these words might be a light switch for you too.

Sadly no light switch yet :(

If we go back hundreds of generations, we can even say that some of the conditions required were the food and shelter that enabled them to provide future generations with the necessary conditions

I found this really interesting, Ive never taken conditions back this far- and also, I really like you using the word conditions vs cause and effect.

Ash

Hi Ash,

Should these thoughts that have big stories attached to them, still just be recognized as a thought, AND/OR, should it be looked at further, in terms of how it sets the conditions for further sensations?

Sometimes it would be appropriate to investigate, but mostly it isn't necessary. If we take a wider perspective, then what we see is pretty constant story telling which we respond to, which begets more stories which we respond to, etc. etc.
..but the question supposes that we have control over what arises. We can paint a picture of what is healthy and that then becomes one condition that may contribute to realizing it. (or may not)
Whatever happens is already done by the time we become aware of it. It can't be changed because it's finished. The best thing we can do with it is not interfere. Not contribute to any distortion. We simply watch it with no opinion or judgement.
If i take the stance that all of my stories are personal fictions, then I cease to take them seriously. Some are useful, but most are no more than entertainment.

I simply find it nearly impossible to see this in day to day life, where time for investigation just isn't there.

Yes, and that is fine. It's not appropriate to be obsessed with this all of the time. Once you have investigated and made discoveries, you will know what you will find if you examine it. Therefore, you don't need to examine it repeatedly.

word conditions vs cause and effect.

Cause and effect is a simplistic notion. It supposes that the cause is something really finite which inevitability leads to a defined outcome. In actuality the cause of any happening is everything that has ever happened since the beginning of existence, and the outcome is any number of possibilities.

with love

vince

Whatever happens is already done by the time we become aware of it. It can't be changed because it's finished. The best thing we can do with it is not interfere. Not contribute to any distortion. We simply watch it with no opinion or judgement.

Makes sense, will do

It's not appropriate to be obsessed with this all of the time. Once you have investigated and made discoveries, you will know what you will find if you examine it. Therefore, you don't need to examine it repeatedly.

This is good to know. I think what will work best for me is to be more lax like this. I use the word take a break loosely, and don't mean it in the sense of not conversing with you. I think I have been trying to investigate too much if you will, and I think I will benefit from just letting reality do me, and I just observe.

Cause and effect is a simplistic notion. It supposes that the cause is something really finite which inevitability leads to a defined outcome. In actuality the cause of any happening is everything that has ever happened since the beginning of existence, and the outcome is any number of possibilities.

Very interesting, never looked at it this way

Ash

'evening Ash,

I think I have been trying to investigate too much if you will, and I think I will benefit from just letting reality do me, and I just observe.

Yes, we have to learn not to push the river. Let's work out that even though we don't feel like we are moving when we just let the current take us, we actually are. Without effort.
Observing happens. Your original intent to wake up invites the conditions necessary for that to happen.
You already have a pretty good handle on this stuff. It's now a matter of letting it soak down to an experiential level. (the brain re-wiring)
If you are sucked into reacting as if any of the illusions are actual, firstly there needs to be a recognition that it happened. Now it doesn't matter if you see it hours or days later, as the seeing will happen sooner (mostly) and sooner. There will probably come a time when you will see that it is about to happen.
The getting sucked in isn't a problem if it is seen. That trains the brain to end habitual responding.
Illusions are just that. If when examined they are seen to be illusory, then they are not delusional. It's human to have the senses tell you one thing that you know isn't actual.
So, have a read through this and come back with what you continue to need to 'work' on.
What is enlightenment?
First a caveat. Everything that i say is from the perspective of this organism (with the vince label)
So, what is enlightenment? It’s a story. An idea.
There are many variations of it, especially in the pop zen genre, but I have to say that I have no idea if any of them are accurate.
What I can talk to is the experiencing that I call ‘waking up’, or ‘liberation’.
These terms obviously come from the analogy of being asleep or sleepwalking, and the analogy of being captive or being a prisoner.
So what is sleepwalking?
It can be described from two perspectives.
The first from the perspective of doing it.
The second from the perspective of observing it.
From the first perspective there is no alternative.
From the second there appears to be options.
If we go to a movie knowing that the story is fictional, we voluntarily suspend disbelief in order to share emotions with the plot. Here there is the option to do this or not. (to varying degrees)
A sleepwalker doesn’t have these options. They believe the plot to be real (actual) They are a prisoner to their beliefs. They take their beliefs to be facts.
The most glaring example of this is the belief that what we observe in ‘the world’ or ‘other’ people, is what is actual.
This, in spite of science of the brain/mind telling us that we really relate to an image that form in our brain.
“It’s really important to understand we’re not seeing reality,” says neuroscientist Patrick Cavanagh, a research professor at Dartmouth College and a senior fellow at Glendon College in Canada. “We’re seeing a story that’s being created for us.”
Most of the time, the story our brains generate matches the real, physical world — but not always. Our brains also unconsciously bend our perception of reality to meet our desires or expectations. And they fill in gaps using our past experiences.”
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/ ... larization
Just as we only know that we have been asleep when we wake up, we only know that we have been a prisoner of our beliefs when we are no longer captive.
When this happens we have the option to voluntarily suspend our disbelief for practical purposes, such as communicating with a ‘sleepwalker’. 
So, the question is “Why wake up?” Isn’t the world ok with 99.9% of the population sleepwalking?
Over at LiberationUnleashed, there have been 2952 ex prisoners in the past 10 years. So if we say that there might be 10,000 awake being at the moment, then it is .1% of the population that isn’t deluded by beliefs. No wonder that there is so much shit happening.

A Stream-enterer (Sotāpanna) is free from:
* 1. Identity view, the belief that there is an unchanging self or soul in the five impermanent skandhas
* 2. Attachment to rites and rituals
* 3. Doubt about the teachings
* 4. Sensual desire
* 5. Ill will

with love

vince

Vince, everything you said in that reply was exactly what I needed and worded so perfect for me lol

Yes, we have to learn not to push the river. Let's work out that even though we don't feel like we are moving when we just let the current take us, we actually are ... Your original intent to wake up invites the conditions necessary for that to happen.

Exactly what I needed

You already have a pretty good handle on this stuff. It's now a matter of letting it soak down to an experiential level. (the brain re-wiring)

This is what I was thinking, I think I have improved drastically from where I started, and I think it is now more-so a matter of allowing it to soak into my brain and allow it to take shape

If you are sucked into reacting as if any of the illusions are actual, firstly there needs to be a recognition that it happened. Now it doesn't matter if you see it hours or days later, as the seeing will happen sooner (mostly) and sooner . . . The getting sucked in isn't a problem if it is seen. That trains the brain to end habitual responding.

Literally exactly what I needed to hear, and lets me know that I don't have to be so hyper-focused on the present all the time, I can be more peripheral, and, as long as it IS noticed, whether at the time it occured (like a micro-sec after), or hours, days, weeks, years later, at least it was recognized.

If we go to a movie knowing that the story is fictional, we voluntarily suspend disbelief in order to share emotions with the plot. Here there is the option to do this or not. (to varying degrees)
A sleepwalker doesn’t have these options. They believe the plot to be real (actual) They are a prisoner to their beliefs. They take their beliefs to be facts.
The most glaring example of this is the belief that what we observe in ‘the world’ or ‘other’ people, is what is actual.

This is quite seriously the best analogy I have ever heard

So, have a read through this and come back with what you continue to need to 'work' on.

I honestly think that the best approach for me to take is to just let experience settle in. Sort of just observe different reactions to content/illusion (which will be observed at different moments, maybe the time it occured, or a year later). Even what Im saying now sounds fishy as crap haha, like I am reacting to content right now, but you probably know exactly what Im trying to say lol, itll come on its own, so theres really no need for me to take that stance, which is why it seems so fishy now

Ash

Ok Ash, let's do a quick check and see where we might go now..
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share your own words, what the illusion of a separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, that made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.
Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self
Take each of these and find examples in experience for each of them; Decision, intention, free will, choice, control and responsibility.

vince

Hi vince, before I answer these questions, I know where you're going with this. I can say for sure I haven't attained stream entry yet, so nothing has pushed me over, but I'll still answer them

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

"I", "me", etc, is just a part of thought content. I can recognize this experientially. It still just seems like I'm a decision maker though, at least partially for thoughts

2) Share your own words, what the illusion of a separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

Illusion of a separate self comes from buying into the thought content of "I", and "me", and not recognizing it as just thought content. This as well as, seeing yourself as a decision maker, even though it is just different sets of conditions arising that lay the foundation for certain thoughts to arise, as well as actions, and the other 5 sense doors experiencing sensations

Through inquiry, I really do not at all think Ive attained strean entry. Different conditions have arised through inquiry, to where I now see through the knot better, but nowhere near completely. Other than that, still experiencing as I always was, but with greater clarity if that makes sense

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The buying into a separate entity for me still exists, it almost just seems more intellectual of an understanding than an experiential one, even though I've been giving my answers through investigating my direct experience.

The only time it seems that I may "see this" is when I look VERY HARD, and so, when Im not looking, it just seems intellectual. But when I see it because Im investigating hard, it seems cool to see thoughts as thoughts, sound as sound, but that is all that sort of happens. Nothing mystical, and I say that in the MOST non-mystical way. Seriously, I think I need more work lol.

The difference before this dialogue and now, recently, is that I am experientially way more capable of seeing thought as thought, sound as sound, etc, and the content of "I", "me", "my" doesnt get as misconstrued, but it still seems mysterious, in that, I see it as a thought, but, the content of "I", "me" still seems integral, as though it is me or something. But I think it more so stems from not seeing it completely as thought, or something to that effect

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, that made you look?

Nothing has pushed me over yet, but, Im more capable of just seeing things as sensations. But i think the best exercise was seeing how there is experience of the 5 sense doors, and then thought comes in, and that story becomes the object, rather than the direct experience itself.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Decision: comes from cumulative conditions. Just like me typing this- which there was a decision. But it only took place because the conditions made for it, such as, being asked a question, willingness to answer, etc.

Intention: basically the agreeable thought before the decision takes place, again, prior conditions are what make it happen

Free will: It seems like it is there, but really, everything is happening solely based on past conditions. It seems like I am experiencing free will answering this question, as there are 2 options in the foreground of my experience- to answer or not to answer. But really, no matter what happens, it happens not because there is actually a decision maker, but, because conditions MADE for a decision to happen.

Choice: it seems like there needs to be 2 or more thought sensations, but there really doesn't. Just one thought is needed, and the cumulative conditions will determine whether it is agreeable or not, and no matter if it is, or is not, this "knowing", sets the condition for choice, or non-choice, which is really just a choice.

Control: it seems like control is there, but again, there is no controlling the past, and everything that occurs now and in the future (you know what i mean, theres no actual future in de), is completely based on conditions from the entire past.

What makes things happen: cumulative prior conditions (everything until now)

How does it work/example:
Right now I am overhearing a CDL A video that my dad is watching as I type this. Going way back like you said, 1000s of generations ago had to have survived, had food, water, shelter, etc, met the same people that they reproduced with, with the same egg and semen to produce the same exact person they did, that was built a certain way, to now get to having my dad as my dad, myself as myself, etc.

These are all examples of conditions that led to this family, some more is, my dad being interested in CDL A, this video being made that he is watching, a wantingness to watch the video, him wanting to listen to it without headphones, and myself being in the vicinity of the sound from the video, ETC. (hahaha)

So, me hearing this video, is all based on the past, nothing about me choosing to hear it.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Im really not responsible for anything. The sense doors are responsible for my experience AND there being stimuli for my senses to sense (both are needed) for there to be me experiencing things.

Example: for simplicity, lets just imagine I only have sense of touch, and there is only 1 possible stimuli for my touch sense door to be stimulated, which is this keyboard.

Both are needed for experience to be experienced. If my sense of touch were gone, then so too would be my experience (in this example). So too, if the keyboard was not there, thered be nothing to experience.

6) Anything to add?

Not that I can think of lol- I just really dont think Ive recognized no self, at least, nowhere near fully

Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.

All of what was mentioned above, plus more. Because of language, we have thoughts such as "I.... bla bla bla" or "My... bla bla bla", and, with time, we take that thought content as actual. There is also bodily sensations, and, when paired with thoughts like "I feel...", it really becomes engrained that we are what we experience, when really, it is just experience so to speak.

Double whammy example: someone touches me, and this makes me feel physical sensations associated with anger, and then angry thoughts arise.

With this example, someone touches my body. All this is, is sense of touch. But, thoughts may come saying "he touched ME". This is now associating the body as well as thought, as being a separate entity. And then a physical sensation of anger occurs, and so too do angry thoughts. This thought sensation that contains "I" does such a good job describing that an angry physical sensation occured, that, you can be deceived into thinking that there is this separate entity thats able to experience, and then identify it, even though, all it is, is a physical and then a thought sensation. (It really doesnt have to be this in depth, and it sounded much better in my head, not sure what im trying to say will make sense when you read it)

Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

I still really dont think ive gained stream entry yet, but, in general, seeing what ive seen, the things that are different include:
- Awareness now looks at sensations differently
- Different thought sensations
- Different reactions/choices/decision

But realistically, these are just changes in content. Nothing has changed in terms of the 6 sense doors, only the content going through them.

Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self

This is still answerable for me, not like a crazy epiphany or anything though, but: I think really, the inquiry of looking at different triggers (5 sense doors), and, how thought stories are generated to describe what is experienced through the 5 sense doors + seeing "I", "me", etc, as just an integral a part of thought content as the other parts of thought content. Just a fancy way of saying, "I" is just a part of the story being taken as an object

Ash