Path to enlightenment

[Florisness]

Hi Paul,

Little later reply than, perhaps I forgot you responded earlier on the day.

Okay here i go. I layed down on the sofa close my eyes, got comfortable and stilled my mind [ no thought}. I'm quite good at doing this and very rare i have chatty mind. If i do get chatty mind i just watch and chatty mind goes. When i come out of this state i feel refreshed today i was in that state for over 1hr but it felt like five minutes. there is no body there, no mind there and no sensation there ever. I would like to say it was black but it was not even black. I don't know if it has a colour. But when i come out of this state, the mind tries to find answers and when i think deeper about it with the mind, i start to have sick feelings in the middle area of my body or sensations in the head like a dull pain.

Okay, so if there is no body there, how could you be a body? Because if I recall correctly, you referred to Paul as the body.

Yes when the eyes are open i see a body.

Okay, and could this body be just a perception/appearance/experience? So is a real object called body seen, or would it be more accurate that an experience is seen?

I was unborn, then Paul was born and had five senses.

Okay, but can you find something to call Paul, or maybe such a thing doesn't really exist? Is anything findable that you can point to and say, this experience right here, was born X years ago?

then i was a infant, then toddler, then child, teenager and young adult with a identity and then a adult. I seen all these different people over the years in a mirror and the mind makes it one person.

And so can you see that an identification with the body must be there in order to say you were an infant, toddler, child, etc.? But are you really a body? And as I've attempted to point at earlier, IS there even a body?

Okay, to help a little more with this, here an exercise: please look at the body, or a body part like the hand, or whatever. I'll pretend that you use the hand. Now, normally we call this a hand, but could we also say what you're seeing is colors, or perception, or experience? Now does this experience/perception/appearance/colors have any weight, a backside, history, function, or substance? Or could it be that these are just ideas that are associated with the experience? Does it ring true that no object called body is experienced, only appearances?

Btw, I think I may have started falling back into making longer sentences. Was it still okay for you to understand?

Wishing you well,
Floris

[Paul70]

Hi floris hope you are well i try an answer the last question but if there is a question within a question i may not pick it out.

Okay, so if there is no body there, how could you be a body? Because if I recall correctly, you referred to Paul as the body.

So there is no body there. there is no Paul. I'm just experiencing sensations through nothingness. So when i meditate i'm nothingness but when one of the 5 senses kicks in nothingness is experiencing a sensation.

Okay, and could this body be just a perception/appearance/experience? So is a real object called body seen, or would it be more accurate that an experience is seen?

the body is an appearance seeing is the experience beyond the body which is nothingness.

Okay, but can you find something to call Paul, or maybe such a thing doesn't really exist? Is anything findable that you can point to and say, this experience right here, was born X years ago?

nothing to point at and say the experience is right here all that i was born.

Okay, and could this body be just a perception/appearance/experience? So is a real object called body seen, or would it be more accurate that an experience is seen?

it would be more accurate to say that an experience is seen.

Okay, to help a little more with this, here an exercise: please look at the body, or a body part like the hand, or whatever. I'll pretend that you use the hand. Now, normally we call this a hand, but could we also say what you're seeing is colors, or perception, or experience? Now does this experience/perception/appearance/colors have any weight, a backside, history, function, or substance? Or could it be that these are just ideas that are associated with the experience? Does it ring true that no object called body is experienced, only appearances?

i'm looking at the hand, i'm experiencing a shape, different colors. this hand has no substance. yes just ideas that are associated with experiencing. yes it ring true the body or object is an appearance not an experience.

thanking you Paul

[Florisness]

Hi floris hope you are well i try an answer the last question but if there is a question within a question i may not pick it out.

Hi Paul. Yes, I am well thank you very much and hope you are well too. I'm not completely sure what is and isn't clear to you, so I may ask some questions that sound a bit repetitive.

So there is no body there. there is no Paul. I'm just experiencing sensations through nothingness. So when i meditate i'm nothingness but when one of the 5 senses kicks in nothingness is experiencing a sensation.

Okay, great. So two questions for you:
- What IS Paul? (if anything)
- What meditates? (if anything)
Just your thoughts on the questions, no need for them to be true or not.

nothing to point at and say the experience is right here all that i was born.

Okay.

it would be more accurate to say that an experience is seen.

Good. Maybe even more accurate is that color=seeing? Sound=hearing? Sensations=feeling? Can you see what I'm pointing to/meaning? For example, that when looking at the hand. The hand=color? Or also, the hand=seeing?

Good day,
Floris

[Paul70]

Good afternoon floris

Hi Paul. Yes, I am well thank you very much and hope you are well too. I'm not completely sure what is and isn't clear to you, so I may ask some questions that sound a bit repetitive

Only when long questions have questions in them. I sometimes miss some of the question. its a disability i have. But what i lose in one area the brain gains in another. Put a maths problem in front of me then boom numbers come out of nowhere. I like repetitive.

Okay, great. So two questions for you:
- What IS Paul? (if anything)
- What meditates? (if anything)
Just your thoughts on the questions, no need for them to be true or not

Paul is just an appearance, given a identity by the outside world, which also is just an appearance.
Nothing meditates. its just a happening. then the happening becomes experience. then the experience is forgotten because nothingness can't hold on to anything.

Good. Maybe even more accurate is that color=seeing? Sound=hearing? Sensations=feeling? Can you see what I'm pointing to/meaning? For example, that when looking at the hand. The hand=color? Or also, the hand=seeing?

looking at the hand there is only seeing. which is an appearance. The experience is only seeing which is color and shape. there is only sound when you hear and only a sensation when you feel. But you don't have to be awake to feel senses. you have all these senses in sleep state. so does the hand equal color, only if you put light on it and give it a color. does the hand equal seeing, when seeing an appearance is equal to seeing. no appearance no seeing. unless in sleep state.

thanking you Paul

[Florisness]

Hi Paul,

I hope your day is going well.

Only when long questions have questions in them. I sometimes miss some of the question. its a disability i have. But what i lose in one area the brain gains in another. Put a maths problem in front of me then boom numbers come out of nowhere. I like repetitive.

Ha, well actually it seems that you misunderstood my question slightly ;-) No worries, forget about it. Hmm.. 45*23? You can do that easily, how long it takes?:-)

Paul is just an appearance, given a identity by the outside world, which also is just an appearance.
Nothing meditates. its just a happening. then the happening becomes experience. then the experience is forgotten because nothingness can't hold on to anything.

Good stuff! What I notice though, is that you say "Paul is just an appearance", so you're putting the label Paul onto the bodyappearance, yes? Just to make sure this is clear: Is the bodyappearance a real Paul? Is the bodyappearance living a life? Can an appearance for example, perceive anything, do anything, live?


So is there any thing unclear yet about this no-self thing? Is there a self, a seperate entity there? Has there ever been such a thing? Can you give your thoughts on it? Would you like to talk more about a specific thing? Exploring other things?

Wishing you well,
Floris

[Paul70]

Hi Floris

Ha, well actually it seems that you misunderstood my question slightly ;-) No worries, forget about it. Hmm.. 45*23? You can do that easily, how long it takes?:-)

You made me smile yep easy [45 x2] x10 + [45x3] = 1035 worked out in seconds took a lot longer to type out. I see things different.

Good stuff! What I notice though, is that you say "Paul is just an appearance", so you're putting the label Paul onto the bodyappearance, yes? Just to make sure this is clear: Is the bodyappearance a real Paul? Is the bodyappearance living a life? Can an appearance for example, perceive anything, do anything, live

Yes anything seen is an appearance. If i look into the mirror i see appearance. This appearance is named Paul. What is a real Paul. i see a image looking back in the mirror. i experience seeing. the body appearance does not experience this. the nothingness behind the eyes experiences this. there is a i state all paulness about it but that all it is. what is life? Life is like my name Paul. Someone told me i am alive and because i am a alive i will die. But nothingness was always here and nothing will always be here. nothingness is in everything. But my mind is still believing in the old program will this fade floris and the paulness see clearer?

So is there any thing unclear yet about this no-self thing? Is there a self, a seperate entity there? Has there ever been such a thing? Can you give your thoughts on it? Would you like to talk more about a specific thing? Exploring other things?

there is nothing unclear about the no self thing. we are the same nothingness. the mind still thinks it's seperate entity. but i know it's not true. it's just nothingness experiencing. is there anything else to explore a deeper level.

thanking you Paul

[Florisness]

Hi Paul,

You made me smile yep easy [45 x2] x10 + [45x3] = 1035 worked out in seconds took a lot longer to type out. I see things different.

That made me smile too. Took me about 45 seconds to do in my mind. Actually, at times I thought you came to good answers to some of my questions rather fast too. You think you're having a benefit too with investigating this no-self thing?

Yes anything seen is an appearance. If i look into the mirror i see appearance. This appearance is named Paul. What is a real Paul. i see a image looking back in the mirror. i experience seeing. the body appearance does not experience this. the nothingness behind the eyes experiences this. there is a i state all paulness about it but that all it is. what is life? Life is like my name Paul. Someone told me i am alive and because i am a alive i will die. But nothingness was always here and nothing will always be here. nothingness is in everything. But my mind is still believing in the old program will this fade floris and the paulness see clearer?

Okay, sounds good. How on earth can Paulness see this clearer? Can experiences see anything clearer? Because isn't Paulness just a part of your experience/experiencing?
Let's try digging a little deeper. Is seeing/hearing/feeling/etc really happening? Is something really seeing? You say, nothingness is seeing from behind the eyes. Is that really happening though? Let's say you're seeing a table. Now maybe you have a sense that the table is out there, and that you are looking from something we could call 'sense of center in the head' or something. Can you follow? Can anything be found there doing the seeing/observing? Maybe the observer is just a concept? Maybe it's more accurate to say there is only seeing?

Now a little deeper yet. I hope the language is understandable, if not, please let me know how I can make it better.
Let's see if sense perceptions are really happening, or that they are just concepts. With sense perceptions I mean seeing/hearing/feeling etc. By using words like hearing and seeing, it sounds like different sense perception modalities are happening. Like there is a thing called seeing AND there is something like hearing AND there is smelling.. So let's investigate.
If you take the attention and move it around in your experience for a bit. To some colors, to a sound, to some sensations, etc.. If these were really separate parts, then shouldn't it be impossible to move the attention around throughout all of your experience? I hope you can follow, let me try again: If your experience existed out of separate parts (seeing, hearing, etc) then I think you should be unable to move the attention throughout all these different parts (hearing, seeing,etc), agreed? Maybe there is no different parts of your experience, maybe it's just one field. Maybe your attention can travel anywhere in your experience, because your experience is one field? I hope you follow. Maybe it's just one field and we label one area seeing, another area feeling, another area hearing, but actually those divisions are arbitrary made? I hope you could understand. So.. what are your thoughts on all this? Are sense perceptions (hearing, seeing, etc) only concepts? Maybe your experience is only one single undivided field?

Good day to you,
Floris

[Paul70]

Hi Floris

Let's try digging a little deeper. Is seeing/hearing/feeling/etc really happening? Is something really seeing? You say, nothingness is seeing from behind the eyes. Is that really happening though? Let's say you're seeing a table. Now maybe you have a sense that the table is out there, and that you are looking from something we could call 'sense of center in the head' or something. Can you follow? Can anything be found there doing the seeing/observing? Maybe the observer is just a concept? Maybe it's more accurate to say there is only seeing?

the senses or thoughts just happen, there arrive and disappear. The nothingness experiences the experience as an appearance. the nothingnees behind the eyes is nothing there ,it is my fault i hate language there is nothing behind the eyes the body is just an appearance. there is no i, just experiences happening.

If you take the attention and move it around in your experience for a bit. To some colors, to a sound, to some sensations, etc.. If these were really separate parts, then shouldn't it be impossible to move the attention around throughout all of your experience? I hope you can follow, let me try again: If your experience existed out of separate parts (seeing, hearing, etc) then I think you should be unable to move the attention throughout all these different parts (hearing, seeing,etc), agreed? Maybe there is no different parts of your experience, maybe it's just one field. Maybe your attention can travel anywhere in your experience, because your experience is one field? I hope you follow. Maybe it's just one field and we label one area seeing, another area feeling, another area hearing, but actually those divisions are arbitrary made? I hope you could understand. So.. what are your thoughts on all this? Are sense perceptions (hearing, seeing, etc) only concepts? Maybe your experience is only one single undivided field?

If you experience the senses and thoughts yes it is a single undivided field. its just a happening been experienced. are the senses perceptions or concept. I say a concept. We experience, then the world says its this all that and puts the idea into the mind. if i missed any part out i'm sorry Floris the question was hard to understand for me. all the words become confusing.

thanking you Paul

[Florisness]

Hi Paul,

I'm trying to make the sentences easy. But because I don't know exactly what is challenging for you, it's hard for me to know how to make it easier to understand. But you answered pretty good.

the senses or thoughts just happen, there arrive and disappear. The nothingness experiences the experience as an appearance. the nothingnees behind the eyes is nothing there ,it is my fault i hate language there is nothing behind the eyes the body is just an appearance. there is no i, just experiences happening.

Ha, yes language is not very truthful is it. So.. does nothingness really experience experiences? That seems like that would mean nothingness is separated from the experience. OR could it be that there is no split? There is a duality with language there again, that maybe isn't there in actuality?

If you experience the senses and thoughts yes it is a single undivided field. its just a happening been experienced. are the senses perceptions or concept. I say a concept. We experience, then the world says its this all that and puts the idea into the mind. if i missed any part out i'm sorry Floris the question was hard to understand for me. all the words become confusing.

Sounds good. Seems to me like you're quite clear on this no-self thing. After each conversation, it is procedure to ask 6 'confirmation questions' regarding the (no)-self. Would you like me to ask them?

Good day to you,
Floris

[Paul70]

Hi Floris a bit late with my reply been a bit tired today.

Ha, yes language is not very truthful is it. So.. does nothingness really experience experiences? That seems like that would mean nothingness is separated from the experience. OR could it be that there is no split? There is a duality with language there again, that maybe isn't there in actuality?

No separation from nothingness to experience. If this was so it means time and distance would be involved. time and distance is a concept. there is only the now and always the now. nothingness is only experiencing nothingness. nothingness does not travel its just here and as always been here. i see the funny side now when people say they are enlightened and read a book by some spiritual person. this is not true, enlightenment is a concept. I now know i never will be enlightened, there is nothing here to be enlightened, its just expericening happening. best i could do to put it into words Floris

Sounds good. Seems to me like you're quite clear on this no-self thing. After each conversation, it is procedure to ask 6 'confirmation questions' regarding the (no)-self. Would you like me to ask them?

i would love to answer your questions Floris. it may take me a couple of days very tired. i travelled so far but been nowhere. ps i don't like using the word i. it states there is something here. but language is very hard to say something and make it mean different. thanking you my lovely guide Paul.

[Florisness]

Hi Paul,

No worries.

No separation from nothingness to experience. If this was so it means time and distance would be involved. time and distance is a concept. there is only the now and always the now. nothingness is only experiencing nothingness. nothingness does not travel its just here and as always been here. i see the funny side now when people say they are enlightened and read a book by some spiritual person. this is not true, enlightenment is a concept. I now know i never will be enlightened, there is nothing here to be enlightened, its just expericening happening. best i could do to put it into words Floris

Sounds good to me.

i would love to answer your questions Floris. it may take me a couple of days very tired. i travelled so far but been nowhere. ps i don't like using the word i. it states there is something here. but language is very hard to say something and make it mean different. thanking you my lovely guide Paul.

Yes, language to me seems more based on/suited for a life that is experienced as physical or so. Thank you too Paul. Okay, here are the questions:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

F.

[Paul70]

Hi F.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no i. Just experiences. nothingness experiencing nothingness.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

do not want to make this a big thing. they was a name given then a build up of a identity a belonging to a family. this builds up other time more programming is put into the mind ownership is developed. the self becomes bigger than life. How see it now. don't see it. there was no self, just an idea put into the mind.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is nothing to see. Its not like a acid trip and go this is amazing now i'm enlightened. there is no enlightment, there is nothing to get enlightened. its nothingness experiencing nothingness. there is not even an i typing this.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There is no control. I woke up from a sleep about 6 years ago and could not stop crying, for no reason and from there things changed i don't know why all how. there is no control it's just experiencing. If anybody goes to liberation unleashed it will not be the i that got them on the web site, its nothingness that got them there to get another experience.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

made me smile. there is no guru here. just is and that is it. If you go to the mind, brilliant i made all these choices. If go past the mind and still the thoughts. experience nothingness then there is no i to be in control. then again who's stilling the mind. nothingness is experiencing nothingness. still smiling.

6) Anything to add?
A big Thank you from nothingness, its been a lovely experience and u been a wonderful guide

[Florisness]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your answers. I enjoyed reading them. Some other guides read it too and some questions for you came from that:

- you use the word nothingness a lot. Do you identify with that?
- You didn't answer question 3 "how does it feel to see this?". Could you still?
- Could you describe what are you responsible for? And to please give examples from your experience, without using the word 'nothingness' this time
- last question. Can you describe what is here, what is present?

Wishing you well,
Floris

[Paul70]

- you use the word nothingness a lot. Do you identify with that?

Hi Floris all should i say hello to me. As i said the language is the barrier. this is everything[ ] and thats it. there no free will, but we know this. we are one and even saying we makes more than one. its just easier to call me Paul and split the one into trillions and trillions eternal. but there is no identification. everything in the universe and beyond is one [ ] and again using beyond gives distance, there is no distance.

- You didn't answer question 3 "how does it feel to see this?". Could you still?

just another experience. nothing changes just carry on about my business expericencing. there no say in it just happenings. the guru's make it a big thing and say you know this when it happens. there sell you an experience. i see this clear now. again using the word my makes out that there something here. there is nothing here.[ ]

Could you describe what are you responsible for? And to please give examples from your experience, without using the word 'nothingness' this time

no responsibilities. it just happening. responsibilities is a engineered word to trap the mind and give identities.

- last question. Can you describe what is here, what is present?

its simple [ ]

hope Floris and the guides enjoyed my answers. Paul

[Florisness]

Hi Paul,

Thank you. A suggestion came to wait for a couple of days and ask some other questions after that. So I suggest we do, okay? I will then write you again after a couple of days.

Wishing you well,
Floris