Stop Resisting

[Nuss]

Hello Jon, thank you for your patience on this reply.

Where does this leave "self" then?

It does not feel like Nuss is the "qualities of Nuss," "expectations of Nuss," or "experiences of Nuss." None of those were found in direct experience, only passing thoughts. There are still times where it feels as if Nuss is "awareness." The thoughts which cast the "blinders" are still there, although today they seem to not be as strong as they were when we started communicating.

Thoughts can appear extremely quickly. And thoughts do happen. At least, their tendency to turn up happens. But what of their content, what thoughts are about?
For example there can be thoughts about "location of hearing in the ear" (that might well accord with an analysis of "hearing" from a school biology textbook) . But in relation to the very simple immediate sensation of hearing are thoughts about " location in the ear" part of the direct experience, or something different, something extra that is added on to the pure hearing?

This has been an interesting exercise. Thoughts are usually one or more of these, typically in this order:
1. The location of the sound in relation to Nuss (more specifically, the head/ears)-on the right, left, front, back, above, below, approaching, getting farther away
2. Location of the sensation
3. Identifying the sound-labeling
4. Positive, negative, or neutral opinion of the sound-these particularly usually carry very little weight.
5. Sometimes thoughts occur regarding the tone quality or musical aspects/analysis of the sound.

These thoughts are not part of the direct experience of hearing. They are added onto the hearing, typically immediately following.

There are moments where hearing feels closer to "pure hearing"-the moment prior to when locating and identifying thoughts arise. No location for the sound, only hearing. Nobody/no one hearing, just the hearing. Just the sensation. This is does not happen often, a few times today. Perhaps with continued hearing this will become clearer.



Also, there is a part of Nuss searching for a "shift," some noticeable change that confirms if the illusion has been seen through.

Things most definitely feel different throughout the day from before we were introduced to one another. Things are starting to look and sound different, more clear, as they are. There is much more awareness on the present, and there is more space between present experiences (sights, sounds, sensations, etc) and thoughts. Actions of Nuss carry out on their own without a "doer" or "controller"-talking, driving, walking, eating, singing, planning, etc.

With gratitude,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. It does not feel like Nuss is the "qualities of Nuss," "expectations of Nuss," or "experiences of Nuss." None of those were found in direct experience, only passing thoughts.

Very good. What about this label "Nuss" though?

To say that A is not Nuss and B is not Nuss is fine but query the notion that lurks here that there is actually a Nuss somewhere.

Often people have been inquiring with the phrase "Who am I"? and this can be quite confusing because there's already an assumption that there actually is a "who". By asking this question it's already loaded with the idea of a fixed entity.

If it would be ok for you I would appreciate it if you would stop talking about Nuss as if there's a third party? I appreciate that this may have been very useful for you till now. It would certainly help me to be able to guide with better clarity if you could simply revert to common or garden "I" or "me" instead?

Does this request make sense? We can talk about it if not and find a way. There was more if your post to consider but I'd like to hear back from you first? You're doing very well so don't be put off.


Thank you

With love

Jon

[Nuss]

If it would be ok for you I would appreciate it if you would stop talking about Nuss as if there's a third party? I appreciate that this may have been very useful for you till now. It would certainly help me to be able to guide with better clarity if you could simply revert to common or garden "I" or "me" instead?

Absolutely, I will stop writing about myself in third person. For some reason I felt it would help me see through the illusion by changing my language, as language is a tool that reinforces the sense of a separate self. However, I can see how at a certain point it would be a hinderance.

Very good. What about this label "Nuss" though?
To say that A is not Nuss and B is not Nuss is fine but query the notion that lurks here that there is actually a Nuss somewhere.
Often people have been inquiring with the phrase "Who am I"? and this can be quite confusing because there's already an assumption that there actually is a "who". By asking this question it's already loaded with the idea of a fixed entity.

I understand, by saying this or that is not Nuss, it can possibly still create the illusion of a fixed entity in the process. I will continue responding with typical first person perspective instead of third person.

You're doing very well so don't be put off.

Thank you!


Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hi Nuss

Thanks for writing back today and for agreeing to my request. This will probably help us.

Ok, we can look at the other things you were saying...

. This has been an interesting exercise. Thoughts are usually one or more of these, typically in this order:
1. The location of the sound in relation to Nuss (more specifically, the head/ears)-on the right, left, front, back, above, below, approaching, getting farther away
2. Location of the sensation
3. Identifying the sound-labeling
4. Positive, negative, or neutral opinion of the sound-these particularly usually carry very little weight.
5. Sometimes thoughts occur regarding the tone quality or musical aspects/analysis of the sound.

These thoughts are not part of the direct experience of hearing. They are added onto the hearing, typically immediately following.

Glad you liked this exercise. I like the way you categorised the different kinds of thoughts that appeared and how they always seem to provide a commentary that isn't the actual sense experience.

Something very similar can be tried with seeing, tasting, touch and smell too. Any of these five senses can be investigated, to see if a "self" is "doing" any of them. But also to notice whether thoughts appear alongside (so to speak).

Thoughts may often suggest that there is someone doing or experiencing these senses. It's really worth taking a look to see if anyone is, ...or not.

. There are moments where hearing feels closer to "pure hearing"-the moment prior to when locating and identifying thoughts arise. No location for the sound, only hearing. Nobody/no one hearing, just the hearing. Just the sensation. This is does not happen often, a few times today. Perhaps with continued hearing this will become clearer

Very helpful to notice. And yes, hearing is happening without labels or words moments before these appear. Notice how thoughts chime in with ideas, stories, labels.

. Also, there is a part of Nuss searching for a "shift," some noticeable change that confirms if the illusion has been seen through.

Well fielded! Now that narrative is seen see if it's possible to suspend judgement on this matter? Openness in this is very helpful because it can take away the constant measuring and judgement. Where there's a fixed idea of how 'liberation' should be experienced it doesn't leave much room for anything.

. Things most definitely feel different throughout the day from before we were introduced to one another. Things are starting to look and sound different, more clear, as they are. There is much more awareness on the present, and there is more space between present experiences (sights, sounds, sensations, etc) and thoughts. Actions of Nuss carry out on their own without a "doer" or "controller"-talking, driving, walking, eating, singing, planning, etc.

Well, that's a joy to hear, for sure.

So how do things happen?

If there's no 'doer', how do "decisions" and "choices" happen?


With love


Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

Thanks for writing back today and for agreeing to my request. This will probably help us.

You are welcome, and thank you for your honesty.

Something very similar can be tried with seeing, tasting, touch and smell too. Any of these five senses can be investigated, to see if a "self" is "doing" any of them. But also to notice whether thoughts appear alongside (so to speak).
Thoughts may often suggest that there is someone doing or experiencing these senses. It's really worth taking a look to see if anyone is, ...or not.

I am continually working with "pure senses" (hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling/sensing). Hearing and seeing feel easier to notice the locating/identifying thoughts arise after the initial experience, especially when walking in the park where sights and sounds are varied. I tend to focus less on smelling (unless it is a very strong smell) so that will be one to try.

Feeling/Sensing: Physical sensations seem more closely tied to thoughts of locating, using the head/eyes as the focal point. This is especially apparent when sitting for meditation. A variety of sensations arise in the body when in seated meditation and there is an ingrained habit of locating that sensation and moving on to another. This is from my vipassana and Mahasi Sayadaw noting practices. The eyes will often look in the direction of the sensation, and sometimes there will even be an image of the particular body part appearing in thought. This thought can be noticed as a separate happening and not part of the pure feeling, however the locating seems to be closely attached to the experience of feeling. This feels like the core of the idea that "I am awareness."

During the last seated meditation, the thoughts arose: "Where is the mind?" "Can this sensation actually be located without an image?"

Well fielded! Now that narrative is seen see if it's possible to suspend judgement on this matter? Openness in this is very helpful because it can take away the constant measuring and judgement. Where there's a fixed idea of how 'liberation' should be experienced it doesn't leave much room for anything.

Absolutely. The last time I took inventory of my expectations of "liberation" was before we started communicating. I will see where these expectations lie and notice how they cloud the experience.

So how do things happen?
If there's no 'doer', how do "decisions" and "choices" happen?

Things seem to happen on their own. Things happen causally to everything in the environment. It feels as if everything is connected.
I don't "decide" to talk to someone next to me at the gym or in the park, it simply happens on it's own. I am noticing that I am not making choices and decisions, they are already made. There is nothing that "I" need to "do," "decide," or "choose."

With gratitude,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. Feeling/Sensing: Physical sensations seem more closely tied to thoughts of locating, using the head/eyes as the focal point. This is especially apparent when sitting for meditation. A variety of sensations arise in the body when in seated meditation and there is an ingrained habit of locating that sensation and moving on to another. This is from my vipassana and Mahasi Sayadaw noting practices. The eyes will often look in the direction of the sensation, and sometimes there will even be an image of the particular body part appearing in thought. This thought can be noticed as a separate happening and not part of the pure feeling, however the locating seems to be closely attached to the experience of feeling. This feels like the core of the idea that "I am awareness."

That's interesting. With all that attention going to sensations which seem to be located in "a body" might it also be that this is where awareness (and by extension "you") are imagined to be? In some kind of container located in space?

. During the last seated meditation, the thoughts arose: "Where is the mind?" "Can this sensation actually be located without an image?"

Good thought! Yes! "The mind". Where is it? There's all the talk about "my mind" or "your mind" but what if it's just a word, an idea? Take a look to see if a "my mind" is spatially located ? Especially, is "mind' found to be spatially located in a skull, perhaps behind eyes?

Are those all ideas we were told as children?

What if it's just what CAN be found? Namely, sensations and thoughts appearing ?

. Absolutely. The last time I took inventory of my expectations of "liberation" was before we started communicating. I will see where these expectations lie and notice how they cloud the experience.

Good idea.

. Things seem to happen on their own. Things happen causally to everything in the environment. It feels as if everything is connected.
I don't "decide" to talk to someone next to me at the gym or in the park, it simply happens on it's own. I am noticing that I am not making choices and decisions, they are already made. There is nothing that "I" need to "do," "decide," or "choose."

Very good. So have you investigated "Choice" and "decisions" ! These can be done very effectively

Love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hey Jon,

Sorry for the slow response, I have not had very much alone time this week.

With all that attention going to sensations which seem to be located in "a body" might it also be that this is where awareness (and by extension "you") are imagined to be? In some kind of container located in space?

This is definitely where awareness and "I" am imagined to be. Some area located behind the eyes from which all sensations are measured. Still working with pure feeling. Perhaps it happened once today. It seems as if the pure awareness is easier noticed in daily life activities, especially when going on walks in the park. It is proving to be quite difficult to notice sensations apart from the thought of locating the sensation. It does not seem to appear in awareness until it is also located. This may take a little more time to see through.

Good thought! Yes! "The mind". Where is it? There's all the talk about "my mind" or "your mind" but what if it's just a word, an idea? Take a look to see if a "my mind" is spatially located ? Especially, is "mind' found to be spatially located in a skull, perhaps behind eyes?
Are those all ideas we were told as children?
What if it's just what CAN be found? Namely, sensations and thoughts appearing ?

So far the mind cannot be located definitively be located through direct experience. There is the conception that it exists behind the eyes, inside the head, however that is simply an idea that was taught.


Here are the current expectations I feel for passing through the gateless gate. There's a whole lot of "I, me, my" in them, but these are what came up:
- I will be able to enjoy performing music without fear of not being "good enough" or being a "fraud"
- I will be able to fully experience life
- Thoughts will still be a part of daily existence, but will remain as thoughts and not cast "blinders" over my awareness


Talk to you soon,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. It is proving to be quite difficult to notice sensations apart from the thought of locating the sensation. It does not seem to appear in awareness until it is also located. This may take a little more time to see through.

Has this something to do with the vipassana noting exercises that you have been doing for some time? Am I correct in thinking that these are often about noting specific sensations that occur 'in the body' so to speak?

If so, that's great, but at the same time could it become a kind of habitual referencing of 'where' each sensation is happening, in terms of a kind of imagined spatial map of the body? Do tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree?

. So far the mind cannot be located definitively be located through direct experience. There is the conception that it exists behind the eyes, inside the head, however that is simply an idea that was taught.

Yes. But also there's an idea that ",of course, everyone has a mind, much like the self and that this mind is "my mind"

. But what if it isn't really like that at all? If mind is imagined there is still the idea of mind, imagined as 'existing' somehow , like an object, some where, such as behind eyes.

. Here are the current expectations I feel for passing through the gateless gate. There's a whole lot of "I, me, my" in them, but these are what came up:

That's great! This is completely honest and frank and is very helpful.

. - I will be able to enjoy performing music without fear of not being "good enough" or being a "fraud

Well, speaking as a sometimes-imagined "basic and unworthy" guitar player that might be quite handy, I grant you. But no self is not about getting rid of actual feelings. It's not even about getting rid of the illusion of a self that could want these sorts of freedoms. It's about noticing these thoughts of "fraudulence" or insufficiency are stories about an imaginary person. It's about noticing that you are not that person that you thought you were. However the illusion could easily keep appearing, to be noticed many times. So it's important to understand that this particular expectation is very unlikely to be met at all immediately. But who knows, it may start to be noticed that you are neither "not good enough" nor "fraudulent" and its only thoughts that "say" otherwise.

. I will be able to fully experience life

Well, life already is fully happening right now. . It might be better to think in terms of not having to try to be a self (that should be able to experience life full) That way it might be noticed that life already is happening fully.?

. Thoughts will still be a part of daily existence, but will remain as thoughts and not cast "blinders" over my awareness

Blinders might still occurr but once again, these will be seen as blinders.

With love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

Has this something to do with the vipassana noting exercises that you have been doing for some time? Am I correct in thinking that these are often about noting specific sensations that occur 'in the body' so to speak?  
If so, that's great, but at the same time could it become a kind of habitual referencing of 'where' each sensation is happening, in terms of a kind of imagined spatial map of the body? Do tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree?

Yes, that is an accurate description. Perhaps the mapping is somewhat of an unintended consequence. Eventually the noting speeds up to where there is no time for “body mapping,” because the sensations are noticed at high speed. However, I have cultivated quite a habit of this body mapping, which is reinforcing this idea of a stable sense of a mind or the self as awareness.

But what if it isn't really like that at all? If mind is imagined there is still the idea of mind, imagined as 'existing' somehow , like an object, some where, such as behind eyes.

Yes, perhaps searching for “my mind” reinforces the idea of a mind somewhere, so the idea of a mind should be seen through-Is that what you are saying?

I’ll continue to sit with the mind questions I mentioned a couple messages ago: "Where is the mind?" "Can this sensation actually be located without an image?"

Blinders might still occurr but once again, these will be seen as blinders. 

It seems the expectations I listed are about potential benefits of seeing through the illusion of self. Your responses all seemed to say that it is more about seeing things as they are, rather than identifying with the thoughts of fraudulence, the “self who is not experiencing life fully,” or the “self who’s mind is clouded by blinders.”

Thank you, Jon!

Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hi Nuss

. Yes, that is an accurate description. Perhaps the mapping is somewhat of an unintended consequence. Eventually the noting speeds up to where there is no time for “body mapping,” because the sensations are noticed at high speed. However, I have cultivated quite a habit of this body mapping, which is reinforcing this idea of a stable sense of a mind or the self as awareness.

Don't worry about this. You're onto it in any case.

I may have given an impression that you should be doing a lot of this noting, using all the senses?.

I really meant that any one of the five senses can be investigated at a time and that the aim in investigating sensation is quite specific (in relation to no self). There does not need to be any mapping or practice of noting for this inquiry to be useful. And actually I would suggest that you relax from this routine for now .

. Yes, perhaps searching for “my mind” reinforces the idea of a mind somewhere, so the idea of a mind should be seen through-Is that what you are saying?

Sort of. Yes, certainly it's worth glancing in the direction of what is assumed to be a "my mind" to see if there is anything that corresponds to that label.?

What mind?

There is so much talk of "mind" that we are barely ever asked to question what is meant , or if there's something "there" that amounts to this "thing"?

. Where is the mind?" "Can this sensation actually be located without an image?"

A good question. Is there a sensation "mind" ?

. It seems the expectations I listed are about potential benefits of seeing through the illusion of self

Yes. Is there wrongness that should change?

Is it possible to drop expectations ? It certainly helps to do so.

. Your responses all seemed to say that it is more about seeing things as they are, rather than identifying with the thoughts of fraudulence, the “self who is not experiencing life fully,” or the “self who’s mind is clouded by blinders.”

Are these thought-stories even about an entity that is "you"?


With love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

I really meant that any one of the five senses can be investigated at a time and that the aim in investigating sensation is quite specific (in relation to no self). There does not need to be any mapping or practice of noting for this inquiry to be useful. And actually I would suggest that you relax from this routine for now .

Okay, I will take a break from the noting practice and continue with investigation of the 5 senses and the thoughts that follow them.

Sort of. Yes, certainly it's worth glancing in the direction of what is assumed to be a "my mind" to see if there is anything that corresponds to that label.?
What mind?
There is so much talk of "mind" that we are barely ever asked to question what is meant , or if there's something "there" that amounts to this "thing"?

There is nothing to be found for a "mind." No "mind" can be felt through direct experience. It is an idea or story tied to the idea of self.

A good question. Is there a sensation "mind" ?

No sensations of mind can be felt. Only sensations (including hearing, tasting, smelling, seeing, feeling) and thoughts arising on their own.

Yes. Is there wrongness that should change?

If I understand correctly, you are asking if the expectations are wrong and that they should change? I would say that they are certainly clouding the experience, and are more outcome-focused rather than based on seeing things for what they really are. I don't think the expectations need to change at all whether they're right or wrong. Instead the expectations should be noticed and acknowledged for what they are-thoughts and stories about a "me" and what "I want" from this experience.

Is it possible to drop expectations ? It certainly helps to do so.

Yes. Through logging the expectations, they can be more easily seen as thoughts and stories about thoughts and stories.

Are these thought-stories even about an entity that is "you"?

Thoughts of fraudulence: Those thought stories are about the ongoing story of "me," not "me" as a stable and consistent entity. There is no one to be a "fraud" if there is nothing for "me" to "do" to be then seen as a fraud. If the music happens on its own without "me," then there's no one to be labeled a fraud.

"Self who is not experiencing life fully": If there is nothing to "do" to experience life fully, then there is no "self" that needs to experience life fully. There is only what is happening now. The thought-story "I hope to experience life fully" is about no one, because there is no experiencing that needs to be "done" by anyone.

"Self who's mind is clouded by blinders": Another thought-story about a thought-story, no stable and individual entity. Since there is no mind which can be experienced, there are only sensations and thoughts. There is no "self" to control the flow of thoughts because they arise on their own, big and small. There is no mind to be clouded by blinders, only thoughts and sensations arising.

With gratitude,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hi Nuss

. Okay, I will take a break from the noting practice and continue with investigation of the 5 senses and the thoughts that follow them.

Ok. Of course it is not that noting is not a useful technique when it is. But perhaps not right now, at this stage in your inquiry.

With the senses, explore one at a time rather than going from one to another in a succession or rotation.

The aim is to notice each sense. Allow all preconceptions to drop. It's possible to savour or be fascinated by the pure sensation. If relaxing into that happens let it. If not, no worries at all.

If thoughts appear notice these. It may be noticed that what thoughts "say" (or are about) is not the pure sensation.

. Yes. Is there wrongness that should change?
If I understand correctly, you are asking if the expectations are wrong and that they should change?

Actually I was really trying to ask if is there a feeling or thought that something (in life) isn't the way it should be? I wasn't asking if expectations (per se) are wrong. but if there's sometimes a thought or feeling of frustration with how things are?

. Thoughts of fraudulence: Those thought stories are about the ongoing story of "me," not "me" as a stable and consistent entity. There is no one to be a "fraud" if there is nothing for "me" to "do" to be then seen as a fraud. If the music happens on its own without "me," then there's no one to be labeled a fraud.

"Self who is not experiencing life fully": If there is nothing to "do" to experience life fully, then there is no "self" that needs to experience life fully. There is only what is happening now. The thought-story "I hope to experience life fully" is about no one, because there is no experiencing that needs to be "done" by anyone.

"Self who's mind is clouded by blinders": Another thought-story about a thought-story, no stable and individual entity. Since there is no mind which can be experienced, there are only sensations and thoughts. There is no "self" to control the flow of thoughts because they arise on their own, big and small. There is no mind to be clouded by blinders, only thoughts and sensations arising.

It's great that you recognise these as thought-stories about an imagined "self".

A couple of questions here...

Is there an expectation that with enough enquiry such ideas will cease to appear?

In that such stories do appear, is there frustration or disappointment ?



I'm struck by your mentioning "fraudulence" because it's such a specific idea about a self. This strikes quite a resonance. It does imply judgement of a someone.

It's one thing to think "there's no self so there's no one who can suffer from feelings of inadequacy or disgust associated with thinking 'I'm a fraud" ...and another to somehow meet the pain or anguish that may have always been behind such a perspective, fully experience that and for this pain-confusion to really begin to drop or unravel. Does this make sense?


With love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

With the senses, explore one at a time rather than going from one to another in a succession or rotation.
The aim is to notice each sense. Allow all preconceptions to drop. It's possible to savour or be fascinated by the pure sensation. If relaxing into that happens let it. If not, no worries at all.
If thoughts appear notice these. It may be noticed that what thoughts "say" (or are about) is not the pure sensation.

Okay. Is there something specific to report back, or just anything that seems worth sharing?

Actually I was really trying to ask if is there a feeling or thought that something (in life) isn't the way it should be? I wasn't asking if expectations (per se) are wrong. but if there's sometimes a thought or feeling of frustration with how things are?

Absolutely. I have noticed how when unskillful thoughts or actions arise/happen, there is sometimes a following reactionary thought which will go something like "You/I shouldn't be thinking that," "You aren't supposed to react that way. You're a meditator. Don't let this/that get to you," "You've been meditating for so long and you still have blinders?" Most of the thoughts or feelings of frustrations are centered around "me" and the "qualities of me," rather than what is happening around me.

Is there an expectation that with enough enquiry such ideas will cease to appear?

Initially there was most definitely an expectation that such things will no longer occur. However, there is now an understanding that these thoughts and stories will come and go on their own, yet also be seen for what they are.

In that such stories do appear, is there frustration or disappointment ?

Frustration and disappointment sometimes arise when I bathe in the stories and take them for more than what they are. Stories simply arising do not cause feelings of frustration or disappointment.

I'm struck by your mentioning "fraudulence" because it's such a specific idea about a self. This strikes quite a resonance. It does imply judgement of a someone.
It's one thing to think "there's no self so there's no one who can suffer from feelings of inadequacy or disgust associated with thinking 'I'm a fraud" ...and another to somehow meet the pain or anguish that may have always been behind such a perspective, fully experience that and for this pain-confusion to really begin to drop or unravel. Does this make sense?

Yes this does make sense. It's similar to a theme of our conversation. It began with me having an intellectual understanding of no self, but not a complete acceptance of it. The feelings of fraudulence don't come as often as they used to, mostly because I do not perform music much at all right now. During my musical training, the fraudulence was a common feeling, especially when you are able to clearly tell who around you could really play and those that couldn't (yet). Even simply listening to someone else perform at a high level (or even at a more beginner level) would incite the self deprecating thoughts and stories. There was an ongoing burden to work as hard as possible to legitimize myself amongst my peers and fellow musicians so that I would feel good about my playing (the trick is, most musicians never do feel good about it). I would often avoid situations where I would have to play something without preparation (even in a relaxed rehearsal/jam session setting).

Now, a lot of those feelings are avoided mostly because there isn't a ton of live music happening due to COVID. I also have established myself well as a music teacher, a realm where those feelings do not often reside. In fact, those feelings don't even reside when performing all types of music. It is only when specifically playing jazz music and improvising-which I studied in graduate school. This is where that expectation stems from, and a large part of what sent me down the path of meditation in the first place-an attempt to learn how to get out of "my own way" and let the music happen on its own.

I see now that this expectation is not as rooted in seeing things as they are and accepting the thoughts, stories, and feelings that arise, but rather wishful for the "trappings of enlightenment."

Thank you!
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hi Nuss

. Okay. Is there something specific to report back, or just anything that seems worth sharing?

Anything noticeable is worth sharing.

. Absolutely. I have noticed how when unskillful thoughts or actions arise/happen, there is sometimes a following reactionary thought which will go something like "You/I shouldn't be thinking that," "You aren't supposed to react that way. You're a meditator. Don't let this/that get to you," "You've been meditating for so long and you still have blinders?" Most of the thoughts or feelings of frustrations are centered around "me" and the "qualities of me," rather than what is happening around me.

In our investigation of "self" it's necessary to look at the dimension of the "doer". "Doer" is a big part of the "self" illusion , the idea that "I make things happen" . "I meditate" , even "I make it so that I shouldn't react" .

What do you make of what Im saying in relation to what you wrote above?

. Initially there was most definitely an expectation that such things will no longer occur. However, there is now an understanding that these thoughts and stories will come and go on their own, yet also be seen for what they are.

How does that seem to you now?

. Now, a lot of those feelings are avoided mostly because there isn't a ton of live music happening due to COVID. I also have established myself well as a music teacher, a realm where those feelings do not often reside. In fact, those feelings don't even reside when performing all types of music. It is only when specifically playing jazz music and improvising-which I studied in graduate school. This is where that expectation stems from, and a large part of what sent me down the path of meditation in the first place-an attempt to learn how to get out of "my own way" and let the music happen on its own.

Oh, very interesting. Congratulations on establishing yourself as a music teacher.

It's a fascinating question , "how to get out of my own way"? Well, are "you" in "your" way?

There's something to discover in this. Perhaps to do with simply not trying to change anything, even the "mistakes"? Like Dzogchen or Zen, or Tao?

With love

[JonathanR]

Hello again Nuss

. It is only when specifically playing jazz music and improvising-which I studied in graduate school. This is where that expectation stems from, and a large part of what sent me down the path of meditation in the first place-an attempt to learn how to get out of "my own way" and let the music happen on its own.

This is so interesting. So fascinating.

I love it when the road leading to the gateless gate includes a need or quest for artistic expression.

Perhaps hearing or 'the heard' will be especially useful for your inquiry. Perhaps you could focus a little more on this sense than the others for now.

I'm guessing, of course, but there's a story here about embarrassment and vulnerability , possibly compounded by anxiety of other trained musicians, "experts" , being able to hear faults or inadequacies in your playing?

What if they are just grateful that it isn't them showing the courage to draw a rabbit out of a hat in front of a live group of people?

Or what if they hear the odd tightness in your technique and actually think "damn it! Never mind. Credit where due!!

The Japanese have a tradition, I think related to Zen , called Wabi Sabi. It's about recognising the flaws and blemishes in art forms and in nature as part of s greater divine perfection or creative birthing.

Could the way "forward" be to acknowledge this challenging vulnerable feeling and even thank it for showing up? (This may sound strange but it could help). Often, feelings we would push away or suppress demand attention and if they are not met,:(yes, even embraced, hugged and thanked dearly) then a pattern of grossly interfering thoughts and self-defeating references tend to appear. Does this ring a bell?

Perhaps it is not realistic to expect to not be nervous at all when performing freeform jazz (because it really is a leap into the unknown) but to be able to perform, to play for those who might hear this magic is a wish that is very deeply felt and thats s kind of miracle.

With love

Jon