Quit Following

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justthis
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Re: Quit Following

Postby justthis » Mon May 17, 2021 3:10 am

Is this something you actually see in experience, or is this rather a logical conclusion?
its a logical conclusion based on what others have said and I seemed to resonate with.
I’m going to ask you spend another day watching thoughts, both mental images and the verbal narrative. Let me know how it goes.
I hear you loud and clear, I actually somehow knew not to put down "memory's of"..to stay with what is now only.
Note: have you seen my second post yesterday about what to do when fear or anxiety is on?
Yes I've actually used it today. I see that I'm shifting out of it sooner.

I've got a notepad with me so I can jot these things down as they happen.
thanks for catching me do that, sincerely!

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Re: Quit Following

Postby justthis » Wed May 19, 2021 5:13 am

Hi Vivien,
I’m going to ask you spend another day watching thoughts, both mental images and the verbal narrative. Let me know how it goes.
Ok, its been an interesting day looking, watching thoughts, mental images and verbal narrative. There has been a lot of mental movies, song, some superstitions, fantasies and some expectations. so much so there's barely any room for "what is now".
today seem to have more calmness because all these appearances coming up are not sticking around as long as they were a few days ago, and some made a comeback appearance. The anxiety has lessened considerably. I made a recording of your comments on my phone and I listen to it throughout the day. I stop as often as my attention grabs an opportunity to see only what is here now. I'm seeing that my whole life has been caught up in this mental fabrication consisting mostly of what I've learned and has been shared to me by others, basically living in a dream unknowingly. My resolve is greater than when I started.

When I was at the store yesterday I was standing in line and I noticed that just the littlest thing that catches my attention like the way the cashier handles the money had a mental story. there was a judgment of her in that. But I also noticed that I noticed and started looking for what is actually here now, and what was seen was body's walking around with different styles of clothing, shopping carts, colors, smells, labeling and then another movie would come up about the way someone was talking to another.

I'm noticing that I don't get caught up in the content as much.
>>>FOCUSING<<< on "what is now" is difficult, I feel like I'm being pulled out of focus constantly, but occasionally there's a kind of resting which is really nice, everything looks so alive.

I've got this bad habit that when something happens like this morning with our key machine at work, I think that projecting this onto others will get somewhere which it doesn't. But this morning I did not project it, I seen that I was trying to make myself feel better by dumping it on someone else, ridiculous story. When I focused on "what is now" there was really nothing to do but take action which I did and it was resolved, didn't have to bring anybody into it at all.

I had an expectation come up today in the form of rewarding me for doing a good job at work, another future expectation found only in the mind.

Another thing I noticed which was startling today was when other people would talk to me and I noticed that almost everything that was coming out of there mouths was fiction and had nothing to do with "what is now" very clear reflection of my own fictions.

QUESTION: in my inquiry do you want to see the content in the thought movies or just speak in general about them?

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Vivien
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Re: Quit Following

Postby Vivien » Wed May 19, 2021 5:41 am

Hi Stephen,
V: Is this something you actually see in experience, or is this rather a logical conclusion?
S: its a logical conclusion based on what others have said and I seemed to resonate with.
Whenever write to me, please write what you can actually see, and not what you remember what others said. Why? For 2 main reasons. First, it’s very easy to fool ourselves with our thoughts… that our thinking is not just an idea, but actual reality. It doesn’t matter what others say, including me, since that’s just an idea for you if you don’t check it and see it in your experience. Just a second-hand information.

Second, I base my questions on your comments, and if you don’t indicate that what you write is just an logical stuff, then my following pointer won’t be suitable for you.
I'm seeing that my whole life has been caught up in this mental fabrication consisting mostly of what I've learned and has been shared to me by others, basically living in a dream unknowingly.
Very good. It’s a shocking discovery, huh? :)
When I was at the store yesterday I was standing in line and I noticed that just the littlest thing that catches my attention like the way the cashier handles the money had a mental story. there was a judgment of her in that. But I also noticed that I noticed and started looking for what is actually here now, and what was seen was body's walking around with different styles of clothing, shopping carts, colors, smells, labeling and then another movie would come up about the way someone was talking to another.
Nice observation.
I've got this bad habit that when something happens like this morning with our key machine at work, I think that projecting this onto others will get somewhere which it doesn't. But this morning I did not project it, I seen that I was trying to make myself feel better by dumping it on someone else, ridiculous story. When I focused on "what is now" there was really nothing to do but take action which I did and it was resolved, didn't have to bring anybody into it at all.
Excellent! You’ve done a really nice investigation. This is the way to go. To see the difference between the present moment reality and the mental fabrication about it.
Another thing I noticed which was startling today was when other people would talk to me and I noticed that almost everything that was coming out of there mouths was fiction and had nothing to do with "what is now" very clear reflection of my own fictions.
Yes. Taking thoughts for reality is a human condition. We are all dreaming with open eyes.
QUESTION: in my inquiry do you want to see the content in the thought movies or just speak in general about them?
The content doesn’t really matter. What matters is to see that a thought as a phenomenon is happening now. The content is irrelevant.

We spend most of our lives taking the content of thoughts as the most important thing in the world… and now we are challenging this idea… to see that the content is just a mental abstraction which has nothing to do with the actual reality.

So, we can say that there is two ways of being. Either being conscious of the occurrence of the present thought, or being totally unaware of the fact that a mental movie/story is on, since we believe that it’s reality, here now. So, something is happening on the level of thinking, and there is an awareness of that.

Being unconscious means that attention is enchanted by thoughts, mental pictures, stories.
Attention ‘entered’ (or zoomed in) the made-up content and is occupying it as it were reality itself.

When this happens there is a forgetting that all of this is the product of thoughts and not actuality - even if the content appears to be true or important – even then it’s not actuality, but a mental abstraction.

Because of this, we are missing actual life – what is happening here-now – including that those thoughts are mental inventions, artificial reality only. Can you see this?


When there is unconsciousness of thoughts, then thought content has become a replacement for reality, an artificial reality. And this is the realm of an egoic, separate self.

It’s like when you left to work, and you don’t remember if you turned off the lights, or locked the door, it’s because you were unconscious of those actions, since attention was busy with the artificial reality ‘inside the head’. That virtual reality momentarily replaced actual life (turning off the lights, closing the door). Attention was on the mind-movie and on the accompanying real time mental soundtrack being produced on the fly.

Have you notice that this mental narrative is almost always ON, created by sentence by sentence on the fly?

The reason it runs non-stop because attention is on thought content most of the time, as if it were reality, like an inner ‘reality show’. :) When the show is on and attention is fully occupied with it, you don’t notice of the presence of those thoughts. There is no awareness of thinking happening. All that is noticed what the thought is ABOUT. But not the thought itself. There is no awareness in that moment of it being a thought only and not reality.
Can you notice that this is what happens most of your waking hours?

Notice, what happens when you notice the ‘reality show’ being a thought only?
Is it still so enticing?
Is it still so serious and important?
Or it becomes less interesting, less serious? Just thoughts and mental images occurring?

And when you see the movie to be an invented artificial construct, then what happens with the emotions that were fully active and present when you mistook that thought for actuality?


Please spend several days on looking at this as often as possible.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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justthis
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Re: Quit Following

Postby justthis » Fri May 21, 2021 6:27 am

Because of this, we are missing actual life – what is happening here-now – including that those thoughts are mental inventions, artificial reality only. Can you see this?
Yes its constantly going on all day, life has been lived but been missed at the same time in so many ways. its actually to blame for financial loss, lost opportunity's, relationship breakups, arguments, health, etc. unknowingly letting it happen (unconscious to it) for year after year. Yes it is quite shocking and embarrassing which is good, strengthens my efforts to keep going.

But now I know why I kept forgetting stuff I did just a second ago, I've been watching this for quite awhile before this inquiry and couldn't figure it out. I seen the other side of this yesterday when I took my medicine, I've been having trouble remembering if I took my meds in the morning but yesterday morning right after I woke up I started noticing the mental stories arising and then falling away as if they knew I was watching. I noticed when I took my meds yesterday morning I remembered the whole scenario clearly. I thought I was losing my memory and come to see that when I'm caught up in the mental fallacy and taking actions I'm taking actions unconsciously and that's why I had NO memory of taking my meds. There was a joy in that. This experience opened the flood gates.

I then went to get gas this morning and while I was standing at the pump I had an experience of nothing happening, no experiencer, there was no mental story, I could clearly see "what is now" But then I seen how the mind quickly comes in and says that's too boring. Looked like home to me!!!
Have you notice that this mental narrative is almost always ON, created by sentence by sentence on the fly?


Yes that's why I was saying the other day that it picks up momentum as its attention is on everything throughout the day seen, smelled, touched, tasted, heard, my whole body buzzes from the affects. I've thought that this was reality but it never was. But there was always something off, not quite right, felt deeply. Its the "thought content" that really has its way with me, but its being seen now. It can be very tricky also. Just when I think I'm not in thought content, I am!!
Can you notice that this is what happens most of your waking hours?
Yes its had plenty of practice over the years to be engrained, it makes me sick to my stomach, its very shocking to put it mildly.
Notice, what happens when you notice the ‘reality show’ being a thought only?
Is it still so enticing?
Is it still so serious and important?
Or it becomes less interesting, less serious? Just thoughts and mental images occurring?
I'm not quite sure about the first question, "A thought only". but in my experience a thought is noticed just like the content is or isn't noticed. Its still a fiction when we talk about the "Reality Show".
Yes some thoughts are enticing and go straight into content sometimes without me seeing. And I usually notice what's going on when I feel the affects.
Yes I caught myself today with a serious and important thought, it had nothing to do with my work directly yet the story of it was so important I was mesmerized, it was important in regards to me seeing it was BS.
I feel like my garden is full of weeds and I've been out there in the rain, snow, and wind working away at pulling these weeds. Yes I would absolutely say that the thought content, all of it is becoming more and more less interesting and serious. I've noticed when I've seen a thought content and it drops away, I am immediately in what is now until the next content arises, which is usually right away...this me is a drama king!
And when you see the movie to be an invented artificial construct, then what happens with the emotions that were fully active and present when you mistook that thought for actuality?
That's an interesting question, its like an energy release. the anxiety is a good example of that, once the mental story has been noticed to be an artificial creation, then the fear that was the reaction to the mental story dissipates. I watched it happen today, I bit my tongue while eating my lunch today and a mental story came in and said I might bleed to death, so then the fear jumped on board, I did the exercise you gave me and it dissipated in about 20 minutes, the body was still trembling but eventually that went to. So not just the emotions, but feelings and sensations in the body, seeing, hearing tasting were all affected and returned to normal. This artificial amusement park is a life stealer.

I know you said to please spend several days on looking at this as often as possible. But I made an agreement with you to communicate every other day and if it would be more to let you know. This inquiry is running 24/7 this is not something I can take a break from, I'm so grateful to have this opportunity Vivien.

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Vivien
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Re: Quit Following

Postby Vivien » Sat May 22, 2021 1:16 am

Hi Stephen,
I thought I was losing my memory and come to see that when I'm caught up in the mental fallacy and taking actions I'm taking actions unconsciously and that's why I had NO memory of taking my meds. There was a joy in that. This experience opened the flood gates.
Nice discovery :)
I then went to get gas this morning and while I was standing at the pump I had an experience of nothing happening, no experiencer, there was no mental story, I could clearly see "what is now" But then I seen how the mind quickly comes in and says that's too boring. Looked like home to me!!!
Yes. And yet thoughts can come. The problem is not the presence of thoughts, but equating thought with reality.
So it’s about seeing in the moment the thought formation, that’s all. Not just focusing on the content, but seeing that this is not the here-and-now reality, but just a thought, a mental fabrication. Nothing real, nothing serious.
Just when I think I'm not in thought content, I am!!
Nice catch… either a thought is seen in the moment as it occur, or the content is fully believed, even the content “I am not in thought”. :) What a trick.
Yes its had plenty of practice over the years to be engrained, it makes me sick to my stomach, its very shocking to put it mildly.
“It makes me sick to my stomach” – is this actually true? Or is this another thought taken for granted, and not seen to be just a mental fabrication?
I'm not quite sure about the first question, "A thought only".
There is only two option. Either a thought is mistaken for reality, so the thoughtness of it is missed, OR… it’s seen that it’s not real, it’s just thought.
But I made an agreement with you to communicate every other day and if it would be more to let you know. This inquiry is running 24/7 this is not something I can take a break from, I'm so grateful to have this opportunity Vivien.
You're welcome. I’m glad to hear that the inquiry is on 24/7. Great! :)

We looked at that our experience comprises of those 6 aspects (color, sound, taste, smell, sensation + the knowing the presence of a thought).

Keeping this discovery in mind, what is it that you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life? I don’t mean what you intellectual understand and reason what you are, but rather what is it that you perceived yourself to be experientially in the mist of ordinary life?

Please spend a whole day investigating this.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Quit Following

Postby justthis » Mon May 24, 2021 4:58 am

“It makes me sick to my stomach” – is this actually true? Or is this another thought taken for granted, and not seen to be just a mental fabrication?
Just another fabrication amongst many others discovered so far. I did feel an emptiness.
Keeping this discovery in mind, what is it that you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life? I don’t mean what you intellectual understand and reason what you are, but rather what is it that you perceived yourself to be experientially in the mist of ordinary life?
Since I've based my so called life unknowingly on believed fictional stories all my life and I am now discovering experientially that all of that was just illusion/delusion, what do I perceive myself to be in the mist of ordinary life? I'm finding that difficult to define or describe. I've looked at this over and over and witnessed my actions throughout the day and all I'm seeing is that actions are being taken, colors are seen, smelling happens, taste happens, touching happens, thoughts appear and disappear. Anything else just seems to be making up stories What I thought I knew intellectually from others I thought I resonated with.

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Vivien
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Re: Quit Following

Postby Vivien » Mon May 24, 2021 6:30 am

Hi Stephen,

You did a nice inquiry :)

So what is not automatic?
What is not happening on its own and needs your doing?

Are thoughts thought by Stephen or I, or thoughts are just happening effortlessly on their own too?

What about decision?
And free will?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Quit Following

Postby justthis » Wed May 26, 2021 1:15 am

Vivien,
I'll be back on Thursday, lizzy and I went fishing.

Stephen

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Vivien
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Re: Quit Following

Postby Vivien » Wed May 26, 2021 2:48 am

All right :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Quit Following

Postby justthis » Fri May 28, 2021 5:08 am

So what is not automatic?
The story of myself with all of its content doesn't seem automatic, seems made up. All of the innate functions of the body are indeed automatic, breathing, seeing, hearing, touching, smell, taste and all of the other functions of the body, immune system, respiratory, vascular, nervous system, ALL of it.. "I" cant make any of those functions happen, they already are functioning.
What is not happening on its own and needs your doing?
Ha ha that's kind of funny, "I" or "ME" appear to be happening in the head, but its all made up and doesn't have a doing role, it never really seems to makes it to the physical reality, how can thought content wash a car? but It will say when asked that it did indeed washed the car, BUT the body ate the food and washed the car, DOESNT NEED ME to do that. What is baffling is how the fictional me can still have an affect on the body if its fiction.
Are thoughts thought by Stephen or I, or thoughts are just happening effortlessly on their own too?
thoughts appear to be arising on their own and I never know which ones will be coming up. When a thought comes up it seems that Stephen, I, ME thinks about them, and sometimes thoughts arise and their not thought about and they drift away without any involvement. There are times when I'm planning garden projects where I feel thought and some knowledge is useful, but that's the extent of. Other time it seems I get in a fight with thoughts, and a lot of energy is involved.
What about decision?
This is a question I've been fascinated with. I've been watching this body do things, the body knows when to shift the lever into drive or park all by itself without any thought about it, and hundreds perhaps thousands of other little goings on during the day. For me to say that "I" do that is just not true. But "I" was groomed somewhere along the line when I was a kid to say it was me doing all that, because others said they were ME's too! What is seen here is that "I" have never done anything except add myself on top of what is already being done and then take credit for it.
And free will?
I see this the exact same way as I do with decisions made, they are happening somehow in the brain before actions are taken. If "I" or "ME" actually had a choice and is real, wouldn't that mean that I existed somewhere outside the body, independent? to me it doesn't make sense that a body/brain that has total functionality over everything could have a separate person or ME allowing the decisions and choices to happen. But there is something here that feels that life is being lived, maybe not a person but something else that I cannot describe literally.

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Re: Quit Following

Postby justthis » Fri May 28, 2021 7:25 pm

Anxiety (false alarm) is still not seen through
Over the last 2 days there has been an almost debilitating experience of anxiety but I had things to do and somehow pushed through it because I didn't believe I was going to die, that I would be ok, even though I didn't feel ok. It's at times so strong and feels so real that I am almost unable to even question it. I kept asking the question "what is it that I am believing in right now" I found it impossible to break free from this fear of dying. The bodys reaction of shortness of breath, chest tightening up, dizziness, feeling confused and disoriented is such a dreadful way to be, and it lingers on and on, it makes me want to cry. I believe and it feels real. I know that if I can just lay down and go to sleep, that sleep will grant me relief. When I wake up I feel better, relieved of the anxiety. Interesting realization is that in deep sleep there is nothing, no body, no Stephen, no me, no I, and no physical world, no nothing, it's like I died. Yet, the body is breathing, and heart beating and I only notice that upon awakening from sleep. Why can't that experience be replicated here in the waking experience while the world is in view?

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Vivien
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Re: Quit Following

Postby Vivien » Sat May 29, 2021 12:42 am

Hi Stephen,
The story of myself with all of its content doesn't seem automatic, seems made up.
And what is it that producing the story?

What is authoring it?

What is thinking it?
asked that it did indeed washed the car, BUT the body ate the food and washed the car, DOESNT NEED ME to do that.
Yes, washing car just happens without a person, Stephen.
What is baffling is how the fictional me can still have an affect on the body if its fiction.
Is it really a fictional me that has an effect on the body, or it’s just a simple thought ABOUT a me?

So what I am asking here, if there is an actual me in the story, or there is a story only on behalf of a me, who doesn’t exist? Talking on behalf a ghost?

Just thoughts containing the words I/me/my/mine?
thoughts appear to be arising on their own and I never know which ones will be coming up. When a thought comes up it seems that Stephen, I, ME thinks about them, and sometimes thoughts arise and their not thought about and they drift away without any involvement.
What is it here in experience right now, that is giving the impression that thought are thought by Stephen/I?
Is there an I/Stephen outside of thoughts that talk about him?

Other time it seems I get in a fight with thoughts, and a lot of energy is involved.
So you saying that there is an I/Stephen outside of thoughts, who can get into a fight with them?
Where is this outside I that is in fight with thoughts?

Isn’t getting into the fight just another thought, another line in the novel of ‘my life’? Another thought taken for granted?

For me to say that "I" do that is just not true. But "I" was groomed somewhere along the line when I was a kid to say it was me doing all that, because others said they were ME's too! What is seen here is that "I" have never done anything except add myself on top of what is already being done and then take credit for it.
Yes, nothing has ever be done, but you are talking as if the adding of ownership is DONE by someone… as if there were an I outside of those thoughts, outside of the words of I/me/mine/my, who is doing the adding.

So where is the outside I that is ADDING of ownership to what is happening on its own?
I found it impossible to break free from this fear of dying. The bodys reaction of shortness of breath, chest tightening up, dizziness, feeling confused and disoriented is such a dreadful way to be, and it lingers on and on, it makes me want to cry. I believe and it feels real.
It might be difficult to zoom out of the story if/when it’s very captivating. But you can shift your focus from the mental story to the here and now experience.

Seeing colors, listening to the sounds, feeling the sensations of your butt sitting on the chair, the tingling of your hands.
The here and now reality is ALWAYS much kinder and safer than your beliefs and imagination :)

Then, ask yourself: Am I safe now? Is the body safe and sound in this very moment?

Not in the next moment, but in this very one. The only moment that ever real is this very one that is happening now. So the only moment I have to deal with is what is here now. Everything else is just fiction.

And notice that in this very moment the body is safe and sound, totally unharmed. And this moment… and then this moment…. check this moment by moment. You are only ever dealing with this moment, just this :)

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Quit Following

Postby justthis » Sun May 30, 2021 11:04 pm

And what is it that producing the story?
Energy/life arises as a thought and the content of stories, just as life/energy produces a flower, otherwise there wouldn't be a story, but "what is producing" the story?? The only answer that is coming up and makes the most sense in this experience here now is - its a brain function process that produces the story, it just happens and why it just happens I cant describe. It appears also that this arising of thought is responsible for the ideas or thought of there being a me and any sort of identity the fictitious me thinks it is. If there truly is a me I do not think that I would go out of my way to think such negative thought that arises, I wouldn't allow it, but there has never been any such control. How could a separate entity called "ME, STEPHEN, I" be separate from the physical makeup of the body, like a ghost, and control every body function? NOT.
What is authoring it?
Stephen at one point "WOULD" have said that when a thought came up lets say like this: "I'm going outside to pull weeds in the garden" and a picture of a certain part of the garden would come up where weeds need to be pulled and what tools and clothes I need to use, plus other random thoughts. Stephen would have taken credit for all of that activity including all the thoughts. Somebody would walk by and say wow nice garden and Stephen would collect the praise for all that. BUT, now its seen that Stephen didn't author any of it, even though he liked the thought of being seen as a person of activity in the garden, "a gardener". What is seen here is that thought arises and then thought invests in what ever is thought about and done about. No one is authoring it, it just happens. Any thought of a Stephen adding himself to it is total fiction.
What is thinking it?
Stephen wanted soooo much to say he was thinking it, but that is just a story, an impossibility. the brain in this experience appears to have the ability to think on its own, so why would the brain produce a phony negotiator like Stephen to deal with everything when it can do without a Stephen? I think that's just another thought that was believed in here that came from another person. There never was a negotiator and when there was one "in thought" it was because I believed there was and paved the story forward. That's what I get from listening to speakers like Tony Parsons, Jim Newman, etc. They are just more thoughts, images in the head if you do not look into your own experience here now. Even all this is just a story.
Is it really a fictional me that has an effect on the body, or it’s just a simple thought ABOUT a me?
after looking at this, there cannot be a direct physical fictional me (a ghost) that has an affect on the body, but in thinking ABOUT a fictional me like "in thought content" there can be, and it can also become emotional. I'm interested in neurosciences findings that the brain cannot differentiate between a real or imagined experience, it will respond in the same way. When there's actual gardening the whole "here now" experience is very satisfying on all levels, but when thought about or imagined the experience of gardening is lacking in direct experience. The brain reacts differently one satisfied, one not satisfying, so the brain seems to differentiate between a real or imagined version of gardening.
So what I am asking here, if there is an actual me in the story, or there is a story only on behalf of a me, who doesn’t exist? Talking on behalf a ghost?
The actual me in the story and THE GHOST doesn't exist, so there couldn't even be a story on behalf of a me, only in thought ABOUT there being a me or ghost, and even then neither exists.
Just thoughts containing the words I/me/my/mine?
I use these words a lot and so does everyone else. I notice when I use them I don't feel comfortable, I feel like I'm lying to someone when I say them because they point to an individual, me, I, person, mine, my that doesn't exist. I'm fearful that I will start taking on the me as a belief again if I get used to using them. But lately I've been associating the words I, me, mine, my with nothing or a nobody, because I don't see what I am as a person or a me.
What is it here in experience right now, that is giving the impression that thought are thought by Stephen/I?
I would say this brains/senses ability to think about thoughts and I called that Stephen, Just like I would name my Dell computer Stephen, I personalize it, I personalize the computer of which I have NO part in its functionality. I do that with animals too, personalize them by making up little stories about them. Not real.
Is there an I/Stephen outside of thoughts that talk about him?
I don't see how!?! when everything appears to be blended together, there is no outside that can be seen, I've never been able to see outside of this experience, only in imagination.
So you saying that there is an I/Stephen outside of thoughts, who can get into a fight with them?
Where is this outside I that is in fight with thoughts?
Some of the thoughts that arise are not liked at all, and so there's like an identity thought war going on in the head. Stephen being all powerful living outside thoughts and the known world in an outside un-seeable realm comes in to save the day...lol Total fiction ha ha…
Isn’t getting into the fight just another thought, another line in the novel of ‘my life’? Another thought taken for granted?
Yes, but "I" has never had a "my life" but in imagination. I assumed it was true without investigating it. That seems to be a common thread throughout my life of not investigating and just going with the flow.
Yes, nothing has ever be done, but you are talking as if the adding of ownership is DONE by someone… as if there were an I outside of those thoughts, outside of the words of I/me/mine/my, who is doing the adding.

So where is the outside I that is ADDING of ownership to what is happening on its own?
There is no outside "I" other than in imagination. There's no owner, that's just thought ABOUT an owner. There's no owner in what is happening on its own, what is happening on its own has no need for an owner. The river flows beautifully on its own naturally, doesn't need a Stephen to show it how to be a river.
I found it impossible to break free from this fear of dying. The body's reaction of shortness of breath, chest tightening up, dizziness, feeling confused and disoriented is such a dreadful way to be, and it lingers on and on, it makes me want to cry. I believe and it feels real.
>>>> It might be difficult to zoom out of the story if/when it’s very captivating. But you can shift your focus from the mental story to the here and now experience.
Yes its noticed that this brain can shift the focus to the butt on a seat, etc., but it has trouble staying pulled away from being captivated by sensations in the body like adrenaline, heat flashes, and icky feelings and story content about all of this. Activity helps some but not 100%.

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Vivien
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Re: Quit Following

Postby Vivien » Mon May 31, 2021 4:14 am

Hi Stephen,
but "what is producing" the story?? The only answer that is coming up and makes the most sense in this experience here now is - its a brain function process that produces the story, it just happens and why it just happens I cant describe
Just notice, when an answer comes up, that just another thought. Just a conditioned belief.

Do you see that this (brain producing the story) is just a mental stuff, just an intellectual speculation, and not your direct experience?

the brain in this experience appears to have the ability to think on its own, so why would the brain produce a phony negotiator like Stephen to deal with everything when it can do without a Stephen?
Do you see that this is another thought taken for granted? That it’s not looking, but just more thought based theories?
That's what I get from listening to speakers like Tony Parsons, Jim Newman, etc. They are just more thoughts, images in the head if you do not look into your own experience here now. Even all this is just a story.
Exactly. So you have to abandon on focusing on any learned information, anything you’ve ever heard what others said about the matter.

The only way forward is to rely on your immediate direct experience… never the thoughts of others.

We are incredibly addicted to the belief that thinking is the source of our identity.
We simply haven't realized that thinking is symbolic, it cannot be reality.

Thoughts are inappropriate tools for awakening, because all ideas are mere abstractions about awakening.
Thought forms cannot be elevated to the status of being a conscious and independent entity, because they are merely representations.
The brain reacts differently one satisfied, one not satisfying, so the brain seems to differentiate between a real or imagined version of gardening.
There is truth to this in the relative realm, but you have to let go of this ideas… otherwise, you can get trapped in the mental realm for the rest of your life (just as most of humanity).

The only way out is to ignore ALL of these concepts, and just stay here with what is here now. What is directly known without any mental mediation / abstraction.

The mental stuff is just fake clutter.
I'm fearful that I will start taking on the me as a belief again if I get used to using them.
It doesn’t matter whether you use the word I or not. It’s not about not using them. It’s about seeing what they actually are. And seeing can only ever happen, here now.

Who is that that could be afraid of that?

you are talking as if there were an entity outside of thoughts, who is afraid of taking the words of I into a belief. Do you see that?


Do you see that this is just another thought taken for granted?

Do you believe that there is an entity outside of thoughts?

V: What is it here in experience right now, that is giving the impression that thought are thought by Stephen/I?
S: I would say this brains/senses ability to think about thoughts and I called that Stephen, Just like I would name my Dell computer Stephen, I personalize it, I personalize the computer of which I have NO part in its functionality. I do that with animals too, personalize them by making up little stories about them. Not real.
Just notice what happens repeatedly with the pointers I give to you. Every question is a pointer for you WHERE to look, and WHAT to look for. But you are not using the questions as a pointer for experiential investigation. You are just simply write down your THOUGHTS ABOUT them. Your learned knowledge. And the meanwhile you miss the whole point.

This is a dead-end. You are missing the pointers, since you regard them as an intellectual question. But these questions are not for your intellect. They are point outside of the intellectual realm, pointing to look at experience.
V: So you saying that there is an I/Stephen outside of thoughts, who can get into a fight with them?
Where is this outside I that is in fight with thoughts?
S: Some of the thoughts that arise are not liked at all, and so there's like an identity thought war going on in the head. Stephen being all powerful living outside thoughts and the known world in an outside un-seeable realm comes in to save the day...lol Total fiction ha ha…
Can you notice that you didn’t really look? You just wrote down your understanding of the process?
Yes its noticed that this brain can shift the focus to the butt on a seat, etc., but it has trouble staying pulled away from being captivated by sensations in the body like adrenaline, heat flashes, and icky feelings and story content about all of this.
You are personifying the brain. You are taking the scientific information as an experimental facts. They are not. They are just inference. A useful one in relative terms, but utterly useless in this inquiry. Can you see that?

What is your direct experience of brain right now?

What is your direct experience of a brain shifting focus?
Or doing anything?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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justthis
Posts: 54
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Re: Quit Following

Postby justthis » Mon May 31, 2021 5:54 pm

Do you see that this (brain producing the story) is just a mental stuff, just an intellectual speculation, and not your direct experience?
Yes I do, I got quite a shock from your last email, it got quiet...
Do you see that this is another thought taken for granted? That it’s not looking, but just more thought based theories?
Yes again its clear I'm not looking at my own direct experience. I am avoiding my own direct experience by putting out intellectual speculation.
It doesn’t matter whether you use the word I or not. It’s not about not using them. It’s about seeing what they actually are. And seeing can only ever happen, here now.

Who is that that could be afraid of that?
A made up non-entity, not real. I'm not seeing what the words actually are other than their just words pointing to me.
you are talking as if there were an entity outside of thoughts, who is afraid of taking the words of I into a belief. Do you see that?
Yes, and this made up entity has no existence other than in thought, the fear is made-up too. I can see the addiction to this.
Do you see that this is just another thought taken for granted?
Yes I was assuming it was true without investigating it.
Do you believe that there is an entity outside of thoughts?
No I do not believe there is an entity that exists outside of thoughts. It does appear "I do in thought though" when I read my responses to your questions.
Can you notice that you didn’t really look? You just wrote down your understanding of the process?
Yes I can see that, my answer now to the question posed is No there isn't a Stephen outside of thoughts who can get in a fight with thoughts, that was just more thought stuff.
You are personifying the brain. You are taking the scientific information as an experimental facts. They are not. They are just inference. A useful one in relative terms, but utterly useless in this inquiry. Can you see that?
Yes, I am seeing my unreal identity as an intellectual escape from reality. "I believed" that more intellectual knowledge would make me liberated or enlightened someday, plus I wanted to learn how to speak about it. there's no future enlightenment/liberation in "what is now".
What is your direct experience of brain right now?
Without all of the intellectual stuff there is just a blank, I have no experience of a brain.
What is your direct experience of a brain shifting focus?
Or doing anything?
I don't have any experience of "a brain" shifting focus or doing anything else, but somehow I am able to shift focus from my butt on this seat to the smell of incense burning.


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