The Gate

Hello Vivien,

This sense of I… that is diffused in my awareness… is known by something. So, that sense of I cannot be the experiencer! Could it be that simple? This sense of I is known… by nobody. There is just awareness and the different experiences that are lit up in this awareness... The sense of I is also one such experience…

Looking forward to your reply.
Chinni

Hi Chinni,

This sense of I… that is diffused in my awareness… is known by something. So, that sense of I cannot be the experiencer! Could it be that simple? This sense of I is known… by nobody. There is just awareness and the different experiences that are lit up in this awareness... The sense of I is also one such experience…

This is a nice discovery :)

Is this a logical reasoning, or you can actually see that the sense of I is just another thing, another object known / experienced, so it cannot be the knower / experiencer?

Just look, what is the experience of a ‘sense of I’?
Is there anything else to it other than the experience of sensations + thoughts?

What is there in experience that is labelled as ‘sense of I’?

And why calling it as a ‘sense of I’? Why not something else? Like sensation or thought?

Hello Vivien,

I cannot see it all the time, but when I am really quiet and looking inward, I am aware of the all the things that go into what I call as the sense of I – the combination of body sensations and thoughts from memory that I associate with myself – and it shows up just like other thoughts and sensations show up. And there is something that knows this.

… Then, who is the enjoyer? Or the sufferer? Nobody? What is the role of the “I” in our life if it is just thoughts?

Best Regards,
Chinni.

Hi Chinni,

You replied very quickly. I would like to ask you to do inquire with each post for a whole day. I understand, there can be an eagerness to reply quickly to advance with the inquiry, but please don’t do that. Spend as much time as you can every day looking at that day’s pointers, again and again and again. You can have one or two longer sessions, but also please try to incorporate several small (10 seconds each) mini session into your daily life.

And when the reply seems to be clear, look more. Look at the same thing again and again.

It’s this continuous and repeated looking and looking again and again, what brings about the realization.

Our aim is not a quick looking with an intellectual understanding. We are going much deeper, to experiential recognition. For that to happen, repeated, deep looking is needed.

Please go back to my previous questions and look with them one-by-one. Also, reply to them separately. Don’t miss any question. This kind of thoroughness is key.

Then, who is the enjoyer? Or the sufferer? Nobody? What is the role of the “I” in our life if it is just thoughts?

We will look at these later.

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

Thanks for the mail. Can you please help me distinguish between direct experience and intellectual reasoning? Let me relate what I’m doing and could you tell me if I’m proceeding correctly?

Is this a logical reasoning, or you can actually see that the sense of I is just another thing, another object known / experienced, so it cannot be the knower / experiencer?

So, when I sit down, close my eyes and just remain, after a while, I am able to see my thoughts appear. Along with this is the sense that these thoughts are happening to someone. When I look for that someone, I cannot find a physical location, but it seems to be diffused all over. When I continue to examine this feeling, this sense appears separate from the “knowing” of this sense. And when I further try examine this sense, I find that it is a combination of sensations coming from the body, and thoughts about the body and memory of things done by the body. And thoughts and sensations cannot “know” or experience. There is something beyond the thoughts that knows.

Am I proceeding to look correctly?

Just look, what is the experience of a ‘sense of I’?

The experience of this “sense of I” is the combined experience of sensations from the body and the thoughts that I am this body.

Is there anything else to it other than the experience of sensations + thoughts?

No, this sense is made up of body sensations and thoughts about the body – and most of the time, the thoughts are from memory.

What is there in experience that is labelled as ‘sense of I’?

The experience is the belief in the thought that I am this physical body and all thoughts are arising from this body.

And why calling it as a ‘sense of I’? Why not something else? Like sensation or thought?

Because it is more complex than just sensations or thoughts – it feels like both are intertwined in this sense.

I find your pointing and writing very useful. Every time I re-read it, it feels like I am understanding a nuance that I missed earlier.

Looking forward to your reply,
Chinni

Hi Chinni,

Can you please help me distinguish between direct experience and intellectual reasoning? Let me relate what I’m doing and could you tell me if I’m proceeding correctly?

Yes, this is very important. Without this, we just simply confuse our thoughts for reality.

So, when I sit down, close my eyes and just remain, after a while, I am able to see my thoughts appear. Along with this is the sense that these thoughts are happening to someone. When I look for that someone, I cannot find a physical location, but it seems to be diffused all over. When I continue to examine this feeling, this sense appears separate from the “knowing” of this sense. And when I further try examine this sense, I find that it is a combination of sensations coming from the body, and thoughts about the body and memory of things done by the body. And thoughts and sensations cannot “know” or experience. There is something beyond the thoughts that knows.

This is looking, great! :)

The experience of this “sense of I” is the combined experience of sensations from the body and the thoughts that I am this body.

Yes, and this is looking also, if it’s seen in a moment when it’s happening. But if this is just a thought or a memory about a previous seeing, but it’s not seen now, then it’s just a belief now.

So seeing can only ever happen here and now.
It’s never a memory.
Memory just another thought happening now, but the content of that memory is just an imagination now, not actual experience. Is this totally clear?

The experience is the belief in the thought that I am this physical body and all thoughts are arising from this body.

Yes. Now the question is, how often do you see this? and how often this comes up just as a memory, as a thought saying so?

I find your pointing and writing very useful. Every time I re-read it, it feels like I am understanding a nuance that I missed earlier.

Yes, so please do so.

Here is a blog post along the same line I wrote. Please read it, and look with the pointers. Let me know what you find.

https://fadingveiling.com/2020/10/04/no ... -here-now/

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for the mail. I spent some time reflecting on your last pointing.

Memory just another thought happening now, but the content of that memory is just an imagination now, not actual experience. Is this totally clear?

Yes, I understand this pointing.

Now the question is, how often do you see this? and how often this comes up just as a memory, as a thought saying so?

I only see this when I am quiet and making a deliberate effort to focus my attention on the underlying awareness. Rest of the time, I am only working off the memory of a prior experience

So in essence, it doesn’t really matter what has been seen yesterday, an hour ago, or even a minute ago.
The only thing that matters what is SEEN or NOTICED in this very moment.

I see your point…

Can you notice here now that this is just a story about a character who is set on a journey towards awakening?

Yes… this is a profound thought…

Why would you go to dead thoughts, while this moment is presently alive, here now?
Why not notice what is here now?
What do you need those memories for?

This is a good point…However, I don’t know how to notice it now… it seems like the only time I am able to see it is when I am not engaged in any other activities…and making a deliberate attempt to trace the origin of the “I”. Rest of the time, it seems like the story that is told through the self is what is real.

How can I see that the I is false in every moment? It takes all my effort (to the exclusion of doing anything else) to see that the I is a thought… How do I see that the I is false when the body is engaged in activities?

Thanks,
Chinni

Hi Chinni,

V: Memory just another thought happening now, but the content of that memory is just an imagination now, not actual experience. Is this totally clear?

C: Yes, I understand this pointing.

Understanding it is a good start. And it’s a different thing to SEE this in daily life.

I only see this when I am quiet and making a deliberate effort to focus my attention on the underlying awareness. Rest of the time, I am only working off the memory of a prior experience

Ok, thank you for your honestly. Now we have to change this. Awakening is not just simply seeing something when the mind is quiet, but seeing this in the daily life.

Remembering a prior experience doesn’t help here.
Since a memory is NOT the actual, tangible thing. Can you see this?

Bring up a memory from your childhood as vividly as you can.
Is that memory an actuality, here now?
Or it’s just a mind-made replica of something that doesn’t exits any more?

How can I see that the I is false in every moment? It takes all my effort (to the exclusion of doing anything else) to see that the I is a thought… How do I see that the I is false when the body is engaged in activities?

The most important thing to see what anything that is mental is not actual, not real.
But seeing this not just generally, but actually seeing this in the moment-by-moment living.

Just notice how often you are engaging with a mind-movies?
How often you focus on a mind-made virtual reality instead of the here-and-now experience?

If you look very closely, you can discover that this happens hundreds if not thousands of time each day, every single day.
Any thought of a past, thought of a future, any hope, desire, resentment, comparison, what if-s, ‘poor me’ stories, ‘good me’ stories, all of these are just mental fabrications and not actuality.

So please spend the following days with the intention to catch ANY and EVERY mind-made virtual shows that go on, and let me know what you find.

How do I see that the I is false when the body is engaged in activities?

Even when the body does things, these mind-movies and mental narrations still go on. Can you notice that?

How many of these happens when the body is engaged in some activity?

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

Remembering a prior experience doesn’t help here.
Since a memory is NOT the actual, tangible thing. Can you see this?

Yes, I can see that memory is not the actual thing and never has the same level of details as the actual event.

Bring up a memory from your childhood as vividly as you can.
Is that memory an actuality, here now?
Or it’s just a mind-made replica of something that doesn’t exits any more?

It is not an actuality and it is just a mind made replica without any current existence.

Just notice how often you are engaging with a mind-movies?

This is constant from the time I wake up in the morning to the time I fall asleep later in the day, these mind movies are a constant presence…

How often you focus on a mind-made virtual reality instead of the here-and-now experience?

Almost the entire day – unless I’m actively looking to see the hear and now through the recent pointing, the entire day is caught up in these mind-made movies.

So please spend the following days with the intention to catch ANY and EVERY mind-made virtual shows that go on, and let me know what you find.

This seemed like an impossible task… though I did not catch every mind-made shows, I spent the days being mindful and wanting to catch the thoughts that appear in my mind. And there were periods of time when I was able to catch the thoughts. When that happened, I tried to be a witness to these thoughts, without getting caught up in their story. As I did that, I was also able to discern the thoughts rooted in “I”. As I watched the thoughts, especially the “I” thoughts, it seemed like, by just witnessing them, these thoughts were not given energy to keep multiplying or to keep spawning other thoughts. So, eventually, the mind seemed a little quieter. A little calmer. But, I don’t think I felt the here-and-now any stronger or appeared any more vividly.

I also found that, at least in my reasoning, I engage with the thoughts because they seem more exciting, or more interesting than the here-and-now. For example, when I am home, the here-and-now doesn’t seem exciting or desirable when compared to some of the stories made up by the thoughts… so, it almost feels like the thoughts, though they may not be real, feel more alive when compared to here-and-now…

How do I see that the I is false when the body is engaged in activities?

Even when the body does things, these mind-movies and mental narrations still go on. Can you notice that?

Yes… this is a good point…

How many of these happens when the body is engaged in some activity?

..It happens all the time, but it feels like the thoughts are what are sustaining the activities, or at least preparing for the next activity to occur. For example when conversing with someone, it seems like the thoughts prepare by choosing what to say next based on different reasoning that happen via thoughts. Or when say, trying to solve a jigsaw puzzle, the thoughts help figure out what piece to select next and where to put it.. that is, what action to take… so it seems like the thoughts are helpful in taking a specific action.

Best Regards,
Chinni

Hi Chinni,

It [memory] is not an actuality and it is just a mind made replica without any current existence.

Yes. Now it’s one thing to see this in general, and it’s a very different thing to see this in the moment-to-moment of ordinary life.

Isn’t memory just another mind-movie?

How many times you are engaged in a mind-movie if a memory? Like a disagreement with your boss you had a few days ago? The person you hurt you some time ago? Or the happy moments of your family at the last holiday?

Are you the person (Chinni) in those mind-made images?
Is that image you?

I also found that, at least in my reasoning, I engage with the thoughts because they seem more exciting, or more interesting than the here-and-now.

Exciting for who?

Just notice that it’s not just simply a mind-movie that goes on almost all day long. But there is also an inner narration, like a real-time soundtrack, seldomly interrupted, produced on the fly?
Like the here and now is not interested enough?

Isn’t the movie being exciting or not also part of the mental fabrication about Chinni?

Are you that soundtrack about Chinni, that steam of narration?

it seems like the thoughts prepare by choosing what to say next based on different reasoning that happen via thoughts.

Can a thought actually choose? Or are there only thoughts appear ABOUT a choice?

Or when say, trying to solve a jigsaw puzzle, the thoughts help figure out what piece to select next and where to put it..

Can a thought actually figure out things? Or thoughts just supply the stream of narration / story?

What you need to look at closely here, if thoughts are aware, conscious, living entities talking, and figuring things out?
Or a thought is as liveless and inert as piece of rock, or a cloud?

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

Thanks for the mail. I wanted to reiterate that I very much appreciate and am grateful for all your pointing and the time and energy you expend in guiding me.

Isn’t memory just another mind-movie?

Yes, it is

How many times you are engaged in a mind-movie if a memory? Like a disagreement with your boss you had a few days ago? The person you hurt you some time ago? Or the happy moments of your family at the last holiday?

Are you the person (Chinni) in those mind-made images?
Is that image you?

This is a bit difficult to answer… Am I the person in those mind-made images? I know that the image is not me, but it is a representation of the false “I”.. it is a story that happened in the past about the false “I”.

Exciting for who?

Haha.. yes, true… Yes, the person that thinks this is exciting/not exciting is only a thought and not real… every experience just is… exciting or not exciting is a label that is applied by the thought “I”

Just notice that it’s not just simply a mind-movie that goes on almost all day long. But there is also an inner narration, like a real-time soundtrack, seldomly interrupted, produced on the fly?
Like the here and now is not interested enough?
Isn’t the movie being exciting or not also part of the mental fabrication about Chinni?

Yes, it is.

Are you that soundtrack about Chinni, that steam of narration?

No, the soundtrack is also composed of thoughts…

Can a thought actually figure out things? Or thoughts just supply the stream of narration / story?

True… thoughts cannot figure out things… but then who acts upon the thoughts that come up? Who processes these thoughts and acts? Who actually puts together a jigsaw puzzle?

[is it] thoughts are aware, conscious, living entities talking, and figuring things out?
Or a thought is as liveless and inert as piece of rock, or a cloud?

Thoughts are inert… the thoughts about “I” are also inert and is observed. So, who uses the thoughts to act?

Looking forward to your reply,
Chinni

Hi Chinni,

This is a bit difficult to answer… Am I the person in those mind-made images? I know that the image is not me, but it is a representation of the false “I”.. it is a story that happened in the past about the false “I”.

Is the picture of an apple a real apple? Or if you are hungry, you need a real one, since a picture or a mental representation won’t satisfy your hunger?

This is exactly what we are looking at. To clearly see the difference between what is real, what is actual, and what is just a mental representation but not a real, actual thing. Can you see that?

This is very important. Why? Since we mistake mental representations with reality all the time. So we are unconscious that it’s just a thought, a mental representation and not reality.

Being conscious means that when something is going on the level of thinking at the moment, there is an awareness of that thinking happening right now. That is awareness is not 'lost' in thought unconsciously. Something is happening on the level of thinking, and there is an awareness of that.

So the mental representation isn’t mistaken for reality.

Being unconscious means that attention is lost in thoughts, mental pictures, stories.
Attention is entirely on the made-up content and is perceiving it as it were reality itself.

When this happens there is a forgetting that all of this is the product of thoughts (mind) and not actuality - even if the content appears to be true or important – even then it’s not actuality, but a mental abstraction.

Because of this, you are missing actual life – what is happening here-now – including that those thoughts are mental inventions, artificial reality only.

This is in daily life is essential. This is the bedrock of our investigation. To see what is real, actual, and what is fiction, mental. So look at this as often as possible and let me know what you find.

but then who acts upon the thoughts that come up? Who processes these thoughts and acts? Who actually puts together a jigsaw puzzle?

So, who uses the thoughts to act?

Just notice that your questions are actually statements. They state that there is someone who acts, there is someone who puts the puzzle together. Do you see this background assumption?

What is your assumption false? What you base your questions on a false belief that there is someone doing things?

What is blowing the wind?
What is raining the rain?
What is waiving the ocean?
What is growing the tree?
What is digesting the food?
What is beating the heart?
What is making the body to grow old?

You see, things just happen all the time. Just notice… is a doer or an actor needed for action to happen?

Is there someone actually using thoughts to act? Or, a thought occurs, and then it’s followed by an action (or not), without anyone or anything making that happen?

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

Is the picture of an apple a real apple? Or if you are hungry, you need a real one, since a picture or a mental representation won’t satisfy your hunger?

True, the mental representation of anything is not the real. So, to answer your question about “Am I the person in the mind-made images”, the answer is no. I’m not what is represented by mind made images

This is exactly what we are looking at. To clearly see the difference between what is real, what is actual, and what is just a mental representation but not a real, actual thing. Can you see that?

Yes, I see that.

To see what is real, actual, and what is fiction, mental. So look at this as often as possible and let me know what you find.

I tried to catch myself as often as I could to see my thoughts during the course of the daily activities. Somehow, its easier to be aware of the thoughts with the eyes closed than with them open – but I realize this is just a skill that I will have to develop. When I would get excited/angry/irritated/annoyed, I would ask myself who is feeling this, and I would see that the “I” that feels this is just thoughts… and the emotions would dissipate rapidly. There was an instance when I was annoyed with someone close to me, and I asked myself who is annoyed and who is this person annoyed at? And I saw the silliness of the situation – there is no one who is annoyed and no one to be annoyed at.

Just notice that your questions are actually statements. They state that there is someone who acts, there is someone who puts the puzzle together. Do you see this background assumption?

True… I am making an assumption here… but it was because that assumption felt natural. I understand what you are saying here. I can see how thoughts arise by themselves without a thinker, but I am not yet able to see that actions occur without a doer. It seems like that actions are at least rooted with the false “I”. I will continue looking into this.

What is your assumption false? What you base your questions on a false belief that there is someone doing things?

I understand what you are saying and I will continue to look into this.

You see, things just happen all the time. Just notice… is a doer or an actor needed for action to happen?

Is there someone actually using thoughts to act? Or, a thought occurs, and then it’s followed by an action (or not), without anyone or anything making that happen?

I’m still not able to see this, and I will continue to look at this into the next few days and will report back.

Thank you and with warm regards,
Chinni

Hi Chinni,

I tried to catch myself as often as I could to see my thoughts during the course of the daily activities. Somehow, its easier to be aware of the thoughts with the eyes closed than with them open – but I realize this is just a skill that I will have to develop. When I would get excited/angry/irritated/annoyed, I would ask myself who is feeling this, and I would see that the “I” that feels this is just thoughts… and the emotions would dissipate rapidly. There was an instance when I was annoyed with someone close to me, and I asked myself who is annoyed and who is this person annoyed at? And I saw the silliness of the situation – there is no one who is annoyed and no one to be annoyed at.

Nice observation. Just keep looking at this. This is key. Make it into a practice to notice your thoughts and any mental movies.

True… I am making an assumption here… but it was because that assumption felt natural. I understand what you are saying here. I can see how thoughts arise by themselves without a thinker, but I am not yet able to see that actions occur without a doer. It seems like that actions are at least rooted with the false “I”. I will continue looking into this.

It’s natural only, because it is your default belief.

Natural = what I usually believe
Natural = it’s habitual

Look very closely…. How could a false I do anything? For that to happen, that false I has to be a REAL think, an ALIVE entity. But is that so?

V: You see, things just happen all the time. Just notice… is a doer or an actor needed for action to happen?

Is there someone actually using thoughts to act? Or, a thought occurs, and then it’s followed by an action (or not), without anyone or anything making that happen?

C: I’m still not able to see this, and I will continue to look at this into the next few days and will report

back.

Please do so. This is important. Let me know what you find.

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

Look very closely…. How could a false I do anything? For that to happen, that false I has to be a REAL think, an ALIVE entity. But is that so?

That is a good point… The ‘I’ is false and has no basis. Everything attributable to that “I” also has no basis. When actions arise, if I were to ask to whom they arise, the answer is to no one. There is no real entity in me that I can point to. And when actions arise, there is no one to attribute or point to who is causing these actions…

With Best Regards,
Chinni