The Gate

Hi Camous,
You used the term "conceptualization of a thought" and similar phrases, and I'd like to see what's behind that, because it's not clear to me. I will challenge every central concept and belief I find, they are like a carpet used to push dust under and goes unnoticed until the hump is clearly visible.


Allow me to take you a few posts back, when I asked you to sit and see what's actually there.
You pointed out that a thought appears and vanishes just like the senses sight, sound, smell, taste and sensation, and that is correct, they are all experienced. So what is the difference between what we call thinking to actual looking at experience?


1) Looking is always done right now, at this very moment, e.g. it cannot be based on something you already know.
2) it’s being aware of sound, taste, smell, sensation and colors (images) to see what is really present - actual experience.
3) In addition to these sense perceptions, we are also noticing thoughts - not thinking, but noticing all thoughts as they appear. Thought content will pull you away from looking directly, but by continuous and steady looking the trick they play in creating the illusion of an "I" becomes clear.

The content of thoughts is an imagined reality, think about your last meal, the thought is here, but the food isn't. That is why this inquiry can never ever be achieved via thinking and learning, and that is why the long and winding spiritual seeking effort is mostly futile, our tendency to think and not look. It's not possible to reveal the actual experience using an imagined experience.

Now, notice what types of thought are there?
1. thoughts about an actual experience
2. thoughts referring to other thoughts. These are what I'd call concepts,

The thought ‘cat’ is real. It is an arising thought and is an actual experience of thought. There is awareness of it as it arises, as you already noted, it's the same as you are aware of senses like sight or sound. However, what does the thought ‘cat’ point to? Does it point to the actual experience or does it point to thoughts about something called a cat? A concept. Here is the breakdown of what a cat actually IS. Please read it carefully.

The thought-label ‘cat’ is an actual experience (AE) of thought and not AE of a cat
Color labeled ‘cat’ is AE of color (sight) and not AE of a cat
Sensation labeled ‘cat’ is AE of sensation and not AE of a cat
Smell labeled ‘wet cat’ is AE of smell and not AE of a a wet cat
Thoughts about ‘cat’ (the content of the thought ‘cat’) is just more thought and is AE of thought and not AE of a cat.

So what is found as direct/actual experience (what is actually known) is:-

Thought-label + color + sensation + smell + thoughts ABOUT cat. However, a cat is not known. A cat cannot be found in direct actual experience.
Please read this a couple of times, this is the key to clarity. Thoughts contents is not real experience, but an imagined experience or concepts.

Here is another simple example of breaking down what is found in AE:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Now let's take a few of the examples you reported:
sound of rain on the leaves;
sound of car's passing, their tires amplifying the sound;
call of birds,
the cats walking on the floor;

You are more than welcome to actually experience again what is here, but can you break down these?
You need to see what is experienced and what is imagined.

Sorry for the long post, please feel free to take another day if you like.
Let me know if this is clear.

If you can repeat the thought exercise from yesterday, and only then please give me a clear answers (if it's clear):
do you have any control over thoughts?
do you have any choice?
And how does that all feel? (that's not a pointer, that's a simple question).

Best regards
Ron

Hi Ron,

Let me walk back through the exercises. If I miss something let me know. I will attempt to give a clear brief answer to your questions, with some insights into my frame of mine. I’m sure you will probe as needed.

Forgive me for including more that your questions and my answers...a bit, at least, is helpful for content. Let me know what a good balance is for you. I can skip any background content and just answer your "blue" questions going forward.
----------
Now let's take a few of the examples you reported:
sound of rain on the leaves;
sound of car's passing, their tires amplifying the sound;
call of birds,
the cats walking on the floor;

You are more than welcome to actually experience again what is here, but can you break down these?
You need to see what is experienced and what is imagined.

Let me do this again.
Sight – cat laying on the bed, stretched out, eyes closed.
Sound – voices in the distant, a dog barking, ringing in my ears
Smell – a dampness in the room. A scent of cologne.
Taste – saliva, a slight taste of nuts
Touch – the pressure of the bed on my butt, the sensation on my fingers of typing these letters.
Thoughts – a computer on my lap, words to express answers to these descriptions. Thoughts of understanding, thoughts of not understanding, thoughts of expressing some understanding clearly. Thoughts of trying to be clear and articulate.
-------
Here is a topic: "black cats aren't like other cats"

Do you have any control over this process?

No, the thoughts arise. There is the thought, then thinking about the thought.

When does this end? Are you deciding to end it, or it just ends?

The thoughts arise and go. There is no controlling them.
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Pick a country
Got one?
I don't like that one, pick another please.
Got it?

Did you choose this? Or was it just what came?

It came without choice. The same country as yesterday.

was that limited group of countries selected by you?

No, nearly the same list as yesterday. Willfully tried to change it. Another thought.

did you decide not to include Pakistan?

no, there was no thought at all of Pakistan.

Did you observe free choice made?

No, it was Australia and it came as a thought again, and I thought of the great barrier reef. Another thought without choice.

Did you observe an actual thinking process?

No, just the arising of the thought and then another thought

Did you do anything at all for these thoughts to appear?

No, just watched them come

Are you choosing to focus on the thoughts?

No, but can see the desire trying to control the thought

Can you find a faculty of choosing anything?

No, choice is a thought about a thought.
----------

do you have any control over thoughts?

No, they arise and go. There is an awareness that I’m trying to shape them…and even that is seen as a thought.

do you have any choice?

No, it can't be controlled, but can be experienced directly.

And how does that all feel? (that's not a pointer, that's a simple question).

I can see how I have used awareness and willful effort for years to try to control my thoughts, and a willfulness to see through it all. Those too, are all thoughts. A teacher has often encouraged me see though it all, until all effort is completely exhausted and it is completely clear. I've spent years trying but have never exhausted me or the effort. There are moments of clarity, gaps that are not explainable. All out of direct experience.

Hi Camous,
I was glad to see your response, your state of mind is at least as important to the quest as getting the right answers, it helps me see a commitment which tells me you're engaged.
Any shift that takes place, is emotional to some degree. Finding out that you are not in control can be shocking and it can also be a great relief, but if it has no impact it's probably intellectual and not visceral realization, that's the point of this inquiry.

Let me do this again.
Sight – cat laying on the bed, stretched out, eyes closed.
Sound – voices in the distant, a dog barking, ringing in my ears

What you've done here may be missing the point though. Rather than breaking down "voices in the distance" into AE of sound and AE of thought (with contents of "voices of people", "coming from a distance"), you listed things that thoughts say are coming from people and from a distance under sound, it's a subtle but important difference.

Let's illustrate this in another way:
As an experienced mediator, you probably got very used to sitting and scanning the body, noticing sensation and locating them. In fact, when you close your eyes do you notice an imagined body map, maybe even a face?
Oh that can really fool you into a belief that the sensation is a physical body part, not seeing the thought making this gap up.

So feel the lips - but as you do, slowly let go of the tag "lips". Without referring to the thought content, can you actually tell that the sensation is coming from something called lips?
Can you see that the sensation is simply some sort of pulsating, tingling sensation (a mere attempt to describe it in words), but any sort of lips is nothing but imagination?

Now find a constant sounds like the refrigerator. Close your eyes and listen - immediately tags will rush in, telling you this is a white refrigerator (or whatever color..) which is in the kitchen and is such and such distance from you. But let these tags drop until all you sense is a sound with no quality at all other than raw sound.. it's just something indescribable that we call sound!

Next, place your hand on the table, eyes closed.
Can you tell from the sensation alone what is hand and what is table?
Can you tell what the table is made of?

Is it clear what direct (or actual) experience is actually like, how it is quite different from the thought explanation?


Let's do another exercise if you don't mind, this one should really make the distinction between thought content and sense perception clear if you do it with keen curiosity.
It may seem silly, but really get into it so that you will experimentally see the difference and it will leave a mark.

1. pick some fruit, best if aromatic and juicy, a piece of apple is great - a food you're very familiar with.
2. place it on the table in front of you.
3. With eyes closed, PRETEND that you are picking it up slowly, feel it, smell it, put it in your mouth. Chew it slowly and taste the pretend fruit, bring all your amazing memory and every bit of your imagination into this! Feel the texture and the taste, finally swallow it this pretend fruit.

In your most simple and immediate experience of smelling and tasting the pretend fruit:.
(a) What is the pretend smell made of? (what is it?)
(b) What is the pretend taste made of?

4. take the actual fruit, smell it for real, put it in your mouth, taste it carefully, chew and finally swallow.

Describe the real smell and taste
Describe the real texture

When you compare the two experiences, one composed of thoughts and imaginations about eating this apple, to eating the apple - what are your conclusions?
Could the thought fruit satisfy you?
Is it super clear why a though isn't a real, but an imagined experience?
Since the illusion is generated by thoughts, can you see why we cannot rely on thoughts to expose the illusion?


The other answers you provided show that you've really looked at this experience, and you seem clear that there is no control over thoughts, and no choice other than in the thought story. Great.

Regards
Ron

Can you see that the sensation is simply some sort of pulsating, tingling sensation (a mere attempt to describe it in words), but any sort of lips is nothing but imagination?

Yes, just a tingling sensation, a tautness sensation, a dryness sensation, a slight pulsing sensation

Can you tell from the sensation alone what is hand and what is table?

No, just a sensation of touch, a sensation of coolness

Can you tell what the table is made of?

No, just a sensation of touch

Is it clear what direct (or actual) experience is actually like, how it is quite different from the thought explanation?

Yes, the direct experience of touch, can be experienced before thoughts give it some form. Thoughts then give the experience some context and thoughts about thoughts can start to analysis it or conceptualize some notion of an object or experience.

(a) What is the pretend smell made of? (what is it?)

Thoughts of the smell of the orange, a concept of some memory of an experience

(b) What is the pretend taste made of?

Thoughts of the taste of the orange, again memories of past experiences

Describe the real smell and taste

Wonderfully aromatic, tangy, and full of sweetness

Describe the real texture

Wet, soft, cold

what are your conclusions?

The real orange was full of favor and satisfying

Could the thought fruit satisfy you?

No, the thought of the fruit was distance and uninteresting

Is it super clear why a though isn't a real, but an imagined experience?

Yes, and thoughts of the real experience can obscure the real direct experience and the vibrancy of the experience

Since the illusion is generated by thoughts, can you see why we cannot rely on thoughts to expose the illusion?

Thoughts can obscure the subtly of a real direct experience. A memory, thought or concept does not compare to the direct experience

Good, seems clear.
You pointed out to memories a few times, let's look at the notion of time.

What is memory exactly? I'd like you to bring up:
1. an image of something you remember well
2. something someone said to you

Let a memory be there, and look at it…

What is the memory ‘made of’?
When the memory appears, when does it appear?
What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened in the past?

Then, bring up a thought about the future, maybe what you plan to do this weekend.

When does the future thought actually appear?
How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

What evidence is there that you saw your cat yesterday, or that you had dinner?
I'm talking real actual evidence not a story.

What can you say about past and future, where do they take place?

What is the memory ‘made of’?

Thoughts

When the memory appears, when does it appear?

Triggered by thoughts

What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

There really is no difference. A memory can be triggered by a thought and then more thoughts add to a more complex conceptualization of a memory.

How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened in the past?

By thoughts. A series of thoughts can quickly create a memory by association, or though another thought fabrication.

When does the future thought actually appear?

With a thought, triggering another thoughts

How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

By thought association. Thoughts can drill down quite deeply to create a more likely future event. For instance, a single thought may think of Monday. That could trigger another thought of a conversation with someone to meet on Monday. Those thoughts could trigger other thoughts about the subject or something that’s needed to be provided or discussed. All are just thoughts with no real reality.

What evidence is there that you saw your cat yesterday, or that you had dinner?

Not a thing, just thoughts

What can you say about past and future, where do they take place?

They take place in our mind as thoughts. There is no reality in them, and when examined closely they are often wrong (how could they ever be right). For example, a pass memory of a childhood friend could be much different from actually looking at him in a photo. And if we were to actually see that friend now, he would be completely different from our memory. Even if just a brief period of time has passed before or after an experience the memory is conceptual and is never the reality of the actual experience.

When the memory appears, when does it appear?

Triggered by thoughts

The question was about time, the memory is about the past, but when does it appear? It appears now.
A memory is a thought, and you say it's triggered by thought.
Perhaps, but is that always the case? Can a link be found between a thought and another thought?

What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

There really is no difference. A memory can be triggered by a thought and then more thoughts add to a more complex conceptualization of a memory.

Right, they are both just thoughts, the content of the memory thought talks about the presumed past, and again you use a term I don't understand, what is a conceptualization of a thought please? I can see thought content pointing to another though content e.g.: "it happened 10 years ago" but not sure what you mean. Most thoughts are about other thoughts, hence concepts, is that what you mean?

How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened in the past?

By thoughts. A series of thoughts can quickly create a memory by association, or though another thought fabrication.

There is a story about the past, the past is inferred by the thought content or explicitly claimed - "it was then", is that what you mean?

When does the future thought actually appear?

With a thought, triggering another thoughts

It appears now, not in the future. I know it's trivial, but it's significent.
Again, some thoguht seem to bring other thoughts, but for all we can find, and I urge you to confirm that - no link is found, and not always.

What can you say about past and future, where do they take place?

They take place in our mind as thoughts.

What is a mind? Is there such a thing as a mind, does it have a location, or is that another concept?

Is there past and future outside of thought stories?
We have a concept of time stretching from way in the past up to the infinite future, and now is like a bead slowly moving on that string of time, but we can't even define time without using the word time, interval, duration, period... which are all time. Same with space, but that's another story :)
As a physicist you may have a desire to use a certain equation that connects the two, but these will just be more stories built on more concepts.

So everything happens now, the mountains and the sunlight, all springs into existence now.

but is that always the case? Can a link be found between a thought and another thought?

No, not really

By conceptualization of a thought, I mean one thought can lead to another thought, often triggering a series of thoughts to create a narrative, script or story. I find that by seeing the thought and watching it, it often stops the generation of more associated thoughts. And, yes, a new thought comes, or a thought about watching and observing comes. This is a tricky area to describe and explain. My experience is that by seeing thoughts, observing them, they diminish and the experience of “being,” without conceptualizing is more available to experience. I won’t defend a process of conceptualization, it’s just another description or intellectualization of thoughts.

What is a mind? Is there such a thing as a mind, does it have a location, or is that another concept?

It’s another concept.

I would also agree that the past and future are just thoughts we are experiencing in the “now.” No need to bring in physics or philosophical constructs. The physics can be useful for making computers, cars and technology or defining some space-time continuum and evaluating the universe, but they are just models that work with forms. Is any of that real? The real wonder is the universe (something we are) unfolding before us in each moment…a mystery that doesn’t need “our” descriptions.

OK, nice work.
Is there any doubt about control over thoughts, or the ability to make choices (free will)?
If so, please give examples of where you may possess such, and we'll look at them some more.

What about actions? How does the body move how things happen?
Let's say it's time to make lunch or dinner - is this something you do?
Could you provide a description of how this takes place.

Is there any doubt about control over thoughts, or the ability to make choices (free will)?

Thoughts come, there is no control. The illusion of control or choice is within thoughts.

Any doubts?....well, that’s just a thought too. It’s clear. Choice is a product of thoughts. In reality, there are no choices, just thoughts of choices.

What about actions? How does the body move how things happen?

All things move in their form, and yet all are connected, without separation…and even that can’t be objectified. How could “I” control this body or anything else. Wind blows, leaves rustle, thoughts stir, eye’s blink….all together, all without a mover or doer.

Let's say it's time to make lunch or dinner - is this something you do?

It’s something that happens, without a self-directed action or thought, it doesn’t need any help from thoughts.

Could you provide a description of how this takes place.

There is no real description, it happens. Any description is just a conceptualization of thoughts. How could “I” explain it without concepts and thoughts or a separate “I” that is doing it? If “I” break it into an event, with sequences, then each is just a concept created in thought. Each moment of “lunch” or “dinner” is experienced as it is, without volition.

That seems very clear, make sure you're saying this from actual experience and not out of a logical construction.
Moving on then 😌
I'd like you to take a look at the body next, and again, make sure this is coming from experience.

With eyes closed, and taking a few minutes to let the dust settle, look:

Can it be known how tall the body is, if it has weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside/outside - of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Can it be known how tall the body is, if it has weight or volume?

No, these attributes are unknown from our sense experiences, only through concepts and constructs from thoughts

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, there is nothing in the experience that informs shape or form

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No, just the sensation of touch

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No, there is no boundary sensed, just the sensation of touch

Is there an inside or an outside?

There is no awareness of sensation of an inside or outside, a concept

If there is an inside/outside - of what exactly?

nothing, only in comparison through thoughts

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

A concept of a person, animal, etc constructed from attributes that are scensed

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

There really is no actual experience of the body, just sensations.

Hi Camus,
Your replies show great clearly, thank you.
I can continue to explore more topics, but what I don't know, is if this inquiry has any value to you? You either experience no emotions during the process, or you're not sharing them, so I can't know. How this all feels, and if there is anything you'd like to discuss?

Regards
Ron

Hi Ron,

I understand. Much of our dialogue has been part of my experience for many years. However, the very reason I came here was to explore a “doubt.” So is there any doubt? As you mentioned we can come to an intellectual understanding of these things, but the real insight comes from somewhere else.

Years ago, in the early days of my “zen” practice, I attended a weeklong retreat. The sits were a bit longer than I had been used to, so I struggled. About halfway through the retreat, I began using a koan to distract me from the pain and discomfort. The more the pain in my legs and dis-ease in my mind intensified the more I grasped the koan. The koan was a famous, yet simple question: “when you have climbed to the top of a 100-foot pole, where do you go?” I don’t know how many times I repeatedly climbed the pole, experiencing each rung, until I was at the top, standing on a tiny platform. The pole and platform swayed in the wind, and I had all the feelings of falling. I looked down and felt the pit in my stomach. Finally, I decided to leap. I leaped off, but there was nowhere to go. There was no experience of falling through the air to the ground or being free of a self. I did it several more times, but each time I had the same experience. Later in the retreat, during a work period, while cleaning the toilets in the dormitory, I put my hand down into a toilet and the experience was one of reaching outside of everything that I understood about the world. The was a clear edge between reality and something completely empty. Not an emptiness of a void, or deep space, but “a nothingness.” I realized at that moment that whole construct of climbing and leaping off a 100-foot pole was conceptual, in my mind, thoughts! It didn’t exist! It was a visceral experience that I would never forget. Later, I mentioned it to my teacher, and he shrugged it off. Perhaps a wonderful teaching moment, to not conceptualize or hold to anything. He often speaks of coming to the complete end of one’s self. The mind coming to a complete stop. There is so much encouragement to push hard, to see it clearly, without a doubt. Yet, my experience is you never get there. It’s an endless path. One can often emotionally or intellectually convince one’s self, that one has experienced complete “liberation.”

When I did the exercise of imagining eating a fruit. First, imagining each step, experiencing it in thought, then actually peeling and eating the fruit, it profoundly brought me back to that experience, years ago, of climbing the pole and seeing though my conceptualization.

There is so much baggage that can build up along the way. To see something clearly, yet slide back into grasping at thoughts. Is there ever really “no doubt?” …and if so, is that just another thought or emotion?

So, yes the simple process of going back to the actual experience of each moment, here, now, without grasping at thoughts, is most precious.

Best regards,
Camus

Hi Camus,
Thanks for sharing, I appreciate it. It's of course impossible to actually share an experience, I have mine and you have yours, and we may or may not refer to something similar. Here there were moments and hours of pure beautiful realization and then they were gone, and confusion came back despite some shifts. Finally there was a seeing with no bang and flashes of what is simply and clearly taking place. But seeing no self isn't the end of the road at all. What you refer to is perhaps the end of the road, a drop of all layers and all beliefs. I can refer you to further investigation in that direction when we're done. LU is focused on the self illusion.

Part of the problem is perhaps "spiritual laziness", we look and look and there's a shift, but without continuous looking we can drop back to the illusion, we start believing in what we've seen rather than keep seeing it now. Just like you described with the fruit, the key is to really really look at it, as if it was your first time. For me it was a habit developed early on, while seeking was taking place, and I still do this through my day, just looking at objects, at the body move, focusing on tastes and sounds and sensations with curiosity.

"No doubt" is a bit of a misnomer, as you pointed out, that would be a thought! What needs to happen is quite different from that, it becomes moot and the question "is there doubt" becomes meaningless. Think about the concept of "purpose", what is my purpose? One can provide all kinds of reasons "I'm the universe experiencing itself" is beautiful but can it be known? Another answer is "I have no purpose" and that would be an equivalent thought/belief. The truth is, after seeing what is "the self", the question of purpose has no validity and so it vanishes, it simply does not come up. But the illusion of the self is very deep, it includes the assumption that you're the center of sensations and can react and make things change.

I'm sure you've heard the story of the rope mistaken as a snake? Once the realization hits you "it's just a rope" will you fall for that snake? Not for that one rope, but other ropes can trigger the fear again. There are many beliefs besides the self that need to be seen through, and until you've seen them all, there is work to be done.

I urge you to simply take your own advice here - really look.
Let's move on then, I want you to have this experience.

I'll give you some time to reply if you'd like to, and will continue in the next post.

Regards
Ron