The Gate

Hi Olivia,

V: Is there an I thinking thoughts?

O: Maybe some greater I beyond the stories and appearances

Is this a thought that you thought?

Isn’t this just a story, a speculation, a theory trying to comply with the belief that there must be something or someone thinking thoughts?

What does your experience show? Not what thoughts say (based on beliefs and assumptions), but your immediate experience?

I can’t find someone thinking the thoughts, they just appear out of nowhere, but also seem not to be random. They support the story. there seems to be some intelligence behind the thoughts.

Isn’t this reply just another speculation trying to match the idea if thoughts are not random then there must be a thinker?

How do you know that non-random thoughts need a thinker? Isn’t this just an unquestioned assumption?

What does randomness or the lack of it has anything with a thinker?

Does the non-randomness of low and high tides of the sea needs a doer? Or low and high tides can appear non-randomly in spite of anyone or anything making it happen, without a doer?

Isn’t low and high tide just happens as a result of certain conditions at place?
And what about rain? Is that need a doer, a rainer? Or rain happens as a result of certain conditions being at place?

Just because something is not random, does it mean that there is a doer, intentionally making that happen?

Vivien

Hi Vivian,

V: Is there an I thinking thoughts?
O: Maybe some greater I beyond the stories and appearances
Is this a thought that you thought?

Yes

Isn’t this just a story, a speculation, a theory trying to comply with the belief that there must be something or someone thinking thoughts?

Yes, definitely.

What does your experience show? Not what thoughts say (based on beliefs and assumptions), but your immediate experience?
I can’t find someone thinking the thoughts, they just appear out of nowhere, but also seem not to be random. They support the story. there seems to be some intelligence behind the thoughts.
Isn’t this reply just another speculation trying to match the idea if thoughts are not random then there must be a thinker?

I didn’t mean to imply there was a thinker.

How do you know that non-random thoughts need a thinker? Isn’t this just an unquestioned assumption?

I don’t know. So yes, it’s a speculation.

What does randomness or the lack of it has anything with a thinker?

nothing.

Does the non-randomness of low and high tides of the sea needs a doer? Or low and high tides can appear non-randomly in spite of anyone or anything making it happen, without a doer?

Yes, it just happens, it doesn’t need a doer.

Isn’t low and high tide just happens as a result of certain conditions at place?

Yes.

And what about rain? Is that need a doer, a rainer? Or rain happens as a result of certain conditions being at place?

Just happens as a result of certain conditions.

Just because something is not random, does it mean that there is a doer, intentionally making that happen?

And so could it be that the certain conditions are the doer? That what there is is shaping itself into the 'happening'?


Olivia

Hi Olivia,

V: What does your experience show? Not what thoughts say (based on beliefs and assumptions), but your immediate experience?

I can’t find someone thinking the thoughts, they just appear out of nowhere, but also seem not to be random. They support the story. there seems to be some intelligence behind the thoughts.

Isn’t this reply just another speculation trying to match the idea if thoughts are not random then there must be a thinker?

O: I didn’t mean to imply there was a thinker.

Have you looked and investigated with the above questions? Or you brushed them aside by thinking that “I didn’t mean to imply there was a thinker”?

Even if you didn’t mean to imply that, please always look with every single question. All questions are pointers for you where to look. If you don’t look, you deprive yourself from discover something new.

Saying that there is an intelligence behind thoughts, is saying that there is thinker, a doer, an intelligence that is making, doing, producing those thoughts. It’s about doership. And doership includes the production of thoughts, and that is a belief in a thinker.

In everyday life we belief that “I am thinking, I am the thinker of thoughts”. – Is this true in your experience? Do you think thoughts?

Or… Do you observe an intelligence thinking or producing thoughts?
Or this is just a thought speculation, but not an experience?

What we do here is to look at facts which are directly, experientially available, and we look at our THOUGHT STORIES about them… to see that are stories are actually in line with the factual experience, or they are just theory, speculation.

And so could it be that the certain conditions are the doer? That what there is is shaping itself into the 'happening'?

Just notice that this is another intellectual question. The mind will produce endless stream of questions, to protect its beliefs, and avoid being debunked.

The only way to get real answers is to look at your experience directly. Everything else just more mind (thought) stuff. Can you see that?

Vivien

Hi Vivian,

Have you looked and investigated with the above questions? Or you brushed them aside by thinking that “I didn’t mean to imply there was a thinker”?

I looked and investigated. But I wasn’t sure, so I did brush them aside.

Even if you didn’t mean to imply that, please always look with every single question. All questions are pointers for you where to look. If you don’t look, you deprive yourself from discover something new.

ok, got it, thank you! I will look deeply with each question, and when I don’t know I will say I don’t know.

Saying that there is an intelligence behind thoughts, is saying that there is thinker, a doer, an intelligence that is making, doing, producing those thoughts. It’s about doership. And doership includes the production of thoughts, and that is a belief in a thinker.

As I see it now, I don’t see anything behind the thoughts. (It is the thoughts that appear quite clever)

In everyday life we belief that “I am thinking, I am the thinker of thoughts”. – Is this true in your experience? Do you think thoughts?

In everyday life, I use that language that I’m thinking.. and also feel responsible for the thoughts and how they make me feel, if that’s what they do. 
But when I remember and really look and notice I see that I’m not doing any of the thinking, the thoughts are just appearing, popping up.

Or… Do you observe an intelligence thinking or producing thoughts?
Or this is just a thought speculation, but not an experience?

No, I didn’t observe an intelligence thinking. 
It was a pure speculation, a thought said ‘what if?’

The only way to get real answers is to look at your experience directly. Everything else just more mind (thought) stuff. Can you see that?

I see. It’s amazing the answers are available when I really look!
Today, I got really triggered by my boyfriend and had a painful thought ‘I don’t have any rights here’. I couldn’t stop crying. Then I REALLY looked what was actually happening. And I saw the mind movie and this time with Olivia in it (that was from our previous investigation). As soon as I saw her and realized it wasn’t about ‘me’, all the uncomfortable sensations disappeared like magic. And the emotional pain did’t come back even after.

Thank you!
Olivia

Hi Olivia,

ok, got it, thank you! I will look deeply with each question, and when I don’t know I will say I don’t know.

That’s a good idea, thank you.

I see. It’s amazing the answers are available when I really look!
Today, I got really triggered by my boyfriend and had a painful thought ‘I don’t have any rights here’. I couldn’t stop crying. Then I REALLY looked what was actually happening. And I saw the mind movie and this time with Olivia in it (that was from our previous investigation). As soon as I saw her and realized it wasn’t about ‘me’, all the uncomfortable sensations disappeared like magic. And the emotional pain did’t come back even after.

Yes :) the effects of looking can sometimes be profound. But even if the emotional pain comes back, you just look again.

We looked at that our experience comprises of those 6 aspects (color, sound, taste, smell, sensation + the knowing the presence of a thought).

Taking this discovery in mind, what is it that you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life? I don’t mean what you intellectual understand and reason what you are, but rather what is it that you perceived yourself to be experientially in the mist of ordinary life?

Vivien

Taking this discovery in mind, what is it that you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life? I don’t mean what you intellectual understand and reason what you are, but rather what is it that you perceived yourself to be experientially in the mist of ordinary life?

That's a big one. Ok so I was observing ‘that I perceive myself to be in my everyday life’ for most of the day, even had dreams about it. It was so hard to disconnect from my intellectual understanding as they do overlap so much, so I went on exploring what is it that I perceive myself as by focusing on individual senses:

This was the easiest while being still and with my eyes closed, investigating sounds. I hear sounds that APPEAR to come from ‘the fan’; but REALLY I perceive the sounds as simply hearing, or the experience of hearing, with different intensity - low or high. So I know there is no separation between the imaginary me and the sounds, only appears to be. In that instant I was just the hearing. And simultaneously a thought told me what the sound was (a fan) and even showed me a picture of the fan placed in thought-space a little bit to the upper right apparently. The thought-image also showed me I was a body with two ears and said I hear the sounds more to the right, so it must be happening in space away from ‘me’.

It was more difficult to see with the eyes open because the shapes appeared to be moving. But when I was in my house with no movement, I perceived myself as the experience of different shades of colors and different shapes and sharpness and sensations. And I observed thought-images that showed me that Olivia was in the house inside of the body shape, where the outside of the house exists as well and it showed me what it looked like outside too, as if through some x-ray vision.
Also without the mind’s pictures, I wouldn’t even know I - as Olivia - was sitting, I’d just be experiencing sensations and pressure. So I could also say I was the experience of sensations (pressure).

Then I observed taste with eyes closed, I was drinking a watermelon smoothie: I perceived myself as sweetness and the experience of ‘who knows what’ but the thought said it was a watermelon, and even showed me a green whole watermelon (even though the smoothie was pink). Without the thought I wouldn’t know how to describe the taste except for the sweetness.
 Similar with smell.

Then I went for a slow walk in the nature and I really looked. I was the experience of colors and shapes, smells, sounds and sensations with the awareness of the thoughts.
I saw a black moving shape next to a body shape and a thought told a story about my dog being there always with me, how cute etc.
I also asked myself ‘how do I know the trees or the sky is far away?’ I couldn’t know, just saw different colors, shades and sharpness of colors - just an experience, almost two dimensional without the mind, a masterpiece of a live painting, things moving and getting bigger and becoming skewed to imply depth and distance from the apparent me.
Same with sounds - no distance, just experiencing of the sounds (similar to as I described above).
And a thought said ‘this is your body, this is a tree, blue, sky, bird etc’.


I was flipping between those two perspectives - one of the story where I was a human Olivia intentionally walking her body and perceiving the outside world through her senses. 
And one of a pure, calm, vibrant experience of beauty and colors and sensations and no separation between the shapes, colors and sounds or sensations - all happening simultaneously on one dynamic canvas. The body shape moving by itself. The tree leaves shapes moving by themselves..
But I still had to put such an effort into seeing it that way, just like trying to see an autostereogram. 


Overall, I perceive myself to be the dynamic experience of colors, sounds, smells, taste, sensations and noticing of the thoughts and invisible images and the invisible voice (thought) trying to label and describe the images and their meaning including the body without the head (as I don’t see Olivia's head).

And also there was a strong voice doubting my experience, telling me that I had to try so hard to see what I perceive myself as, so it must be far away from ‘as it’s supposed to be’, and that there is nothing I could do as Olivia to make this process happen as it is supposed to happen spontaneously. A voice saying I was doomed to a life of misery and suffering.

So, I don’t know if I’m on the right path in here? Am I trying too hard? Any pointers would be very much appreciated!
Thank you so much! I'm so grateful for all your persistent guidance!

Olivia

Hi Olivia,

You did a nice investigation.

I also asked myself ‘how do I know the trees or the sky is far away?’ I couldn’t know, just saw different colors, shades and sharpness of colors - just an experience, almost two dimensional without the mind, a masterpiece of a live painting, things moving and getting bigger and becoming skewed to imply depth and distance from the apparent me.
Same with sounds - no distance, just experiencing of the sounds (similar to as I described above).
And a thought said ‘this is your body, this is a tree, blue, sky, bird etc’.

This is an excellent observation. :)

And simultaneously a thought told me what the sound was (a fan) and even showed me a picture of the fan placed in thought-space a little bit to the upper right apparently. The thought-image also showed me I was a body with two ears and said I hear the sounds more to the right, so it must be happening in space away from ‘me’.

So you are repeatedly saying that ‘thought told ME”, ‘showed ME’….

Turn your attention to this ME that thoughts are talking TO, and showing images TO.
Where is this me?

Yes, there are thoughts and mental images showing up, but is there a me at the receiving end?
Is there anything at the receiving end?
Is there a receiving end at all?

Or there is only the knowing or awareness of thoughts and images, without anyone receiving them?

But I still had to put such an effort into seeing it that way, just like trying to see an autostereogram. 


Look for the one that is making effort.

Is there an effort maker? An efforter? An entity or an individual making an effort?
Or effort just happening on its own (effortlessly :), without anyone doing it?

Vivien

Vivian,

Turn your attention to this ME that thoughts are talking TO, and showing images TO.
Where is this me?


That was a great question! I looked with eyes closed and the thoughts floated in the mind-space. I did vaguely see Olivia’s head behind my closed eyes, overlapping with Olivia’s physical head, but there is no way I’d see ‘my own head!’
So it must also be an image of Olivia’s head! It’s all an illusion and there is nobody to be sucked into that illusion!
 The body seems like an empty empty form now but more of a painting that flows with the whole environment rather than a ghost.
And then a thought: ‘I think I got it!’ hahaha, that made me laugh! (or Olivia)
The painting is like the screen with a movie playing on it.. to nobody, and so nobody can change it! Not Olivia. 
Some questions arose and got answered:
Will Olivia die? She’s never lived.
Will her relationship end? It never started. But in her story yes. And there is nobody to change that.

Yes, there are thoughts and mental images showing up, but is there a me at the receiving end?

Nope

Is there anything at the receiving end?

Nothing.

Is there a receiving end at all?

There is no end. And nobody to receive.

Or there is only the knowing or awareness of thoughts and images, without anyone receiving them?

With no one to receive them.

Is there an effort maker? An efforter? An entity or an individual making an effort?

No, just a thought.

Or effort just happening on its own (effortlessly :), without anyone doing it?

Nobody’s doing anything. Just awareness of those sensations and thoughts.

A thought appeared: How did I get tricked so easily?! :D

Olivia

Hi Olivia,

The painting is like the screen with a movie playing on it.. to nobody, and so nobody can change it! Not Olivia. 
Some questions arose and got answered:
Will Olivia die? She’s never lived.
Will her relationship end? It never started. But in her story yes. And there is nobody to change that.

You did a nice investigation :)

What about control, decision and free will?

Is there anything (anything at all) that doesn’t happen on its own and on autopilot?

Is there any doing at all?


Vivien

What about control, decision and free will?

Since nobody can control the thoughts or awareness, there is no control. Decisions are made by themselves when they do. And there is no free will. What a relief! (It only appears there is)
I had a lucid dream last night, where, apparently I noticed I was dreaming and was changing the direction of flying and my action. But when I looked at that too, it was the same as in waking, no difference at all: A thought pops and says: You are dreaming!, go this way, do this, how about this…
And so Olivia or whoever it was was flying around thinking she had some control but it was just thoughts appearing..



Is there anything (anything at all) that doesn’t happen on its own and on autopilot?

Nothing.

Is there any doing at all?

No doing, just happening, unfolding..

It’s really such a relief! That there is nothing I can do, or nothing I can do differently. And there is nothing anybody can do or do differently (if there was I and others)


Olivia

Hi Olivia,

:) Thank you for your replies.

Can you say with certainty that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no separate self to an experiential recognition of it?

Is there any doubt?

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?


Vivien

Can you say with certainty that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no separate self to an experiential recognition of it?



Hi Vivian,
 there has definitely been an experiential shift in seeing the emptiness instead of the ‘me’ to whom the experiences happen. ‘I’ cried and laughed but not sure if there was a permanent shift, except of some thoughts of reflection later. 


Is there any doubt?

I don’t experience much of a shift in my daily life, especially when around people (says a thought).
I’m not sure if it’s because I had some expectations left around experiencing some greater shift or if the shift comes more gradually..

Sometimes, a thought says to look at that emptiness again. And when the awareness shifts, a greater spaciousness and okayness with everything that is is experienced. So it seems the shift might still depend on a reminding thought (to somebody).

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

Would I know without a shadow of doubt a shift has occurred? Or the doubt is just another thought trying to keep the illusion?


What is your experience with this Vivian?

much gratitude,
Olivia

Hi Olivia,

but not sure if there was a permanent shift, except of some thoughts of reflection later. 


What is it that wants a permanent shift?

What is it that has a problem with sometimes diving into the story?

Is there an expectation that seeing should be there 24/7?

Let’s look at the notion of permanence.
Is there a permanent state? A final or constant/permanent feeling?

Is there such thing as a last insight? Or this is ever fresh and spontaneous?

Is it ok to dive into a story or that should not be happening?

I don’t experience much of a shift in my daily life, especially when around people (says a thought).

Look at this more closely.

What should be different?

“especially when around people” – what is it exactly that is around people?

Is there an I in this body, and other I-s in other bodies, so this I is being around with other I-s (people)?

I’m not sure if it’s because I had some expectations left around experiencing some greater shift or if the shift comes more gradually..

What is it that is missing?
What is not complete?

Would I know without a shadow of doubt a shift has occurred? Or the doubt is just another thought trying to keep the illusion?


It depends. If you have expectations or preconceived ideas how a shift should be like and feel like, then there could be a doubt, since what is here now is not matching the should-s (expectations). So thoughts might come up saying, this is it? Only this? That's all? Where is the permanent state? I still feel like me, so has it happened?”

The shift is nothing else but the experiential recognition that there isn’t and has never been a separate self.
That the body is empty of a self. No doer, no thinker, no decider, no feeler.

But, if you have attached some ideas that seeing that there is no separate self would bring certain states with it, then you are not looking for a shift, but for the assumed by-products, so you might miss the point.

It should be clear without any doubt, but when there is a doubt it could be there for 2 reasons. 1. it's not really seen that there is no separate self. 2. you are looking for some by-products and miss the 'real deal'.

Vivien

Vivian,

What is it that wants a permanent shift?


Haha, the no-one who believes the shift should be greater and permanent.
There was a conversation in the mind going like this: Surely, when you have an orgasm for the first time, you know it. If you're not sure, then that's probably not it! lol. It was also an expectation about awakening, enlightenment..and it was overriding what was actually happening.

What is it that has a problem with sometimes diving into the story?

The no-one who thinks diving into the story is a bad thing, a sign of an unawakened mind. LOL!!!

Is there an expectation that seeing should be there 24/7?

There was until now.

Let’s look at the notion of permanence.
Is there a permanent state? A final or constant/permanent feeling?

Never

Is there such thing as a last insight? Or this is ever fresh and spontaneous?

It’s fresh and spontaneous! It has to be otherwise there will be believing in something a thought says. And a thought can say anything..

Is it ok to dive into a story or that should not be happening?
If it happens it's ok. It shouldn't be happening when it's not happening.

I don’t experience much of a shift in my daily life, especially when around people (says a thought).
Look at this more closely.
What should be different?

There was an expectation that there shouldn’t be thoughts that want things different, thoughts saying that I should be more in control and notice and recognize all the thoughts quicker for what they are.. LOL. Just thoughts and movies appearing.

“especially when around people” – what is it exactly that is around people?
An utopia mind movie playing about Olivia who should be composed and peaceful, and better than before and even better than others (her boyfriend), and never get triggered emotionally after her awakening, especially not in front of her boyfriend. LOL!! OMG.. so many expectations, glad to see them for what they are!

Is there an I in this body, and other I-s in other bodies, so this I is being around with other I-s (people)?

No.
Even ‘this body’ is a label, a thought, just like ‘seeing’ faces and animals in clouds (it’s just thoughts labeling shapes that don’t really have their own separate existence or agency apart from the sky). It's so clear, even when a thought says something different.

What is it that is missing?

Nothing is missing.

What is not complete?

Nothing is incomplete. This is so humbling. There were so many expectations left and without them, this moment, this life is such precious unfolding it moves me to tears. Or tears are happening to nobody, sensations and thoughts of so much gratitude arising. That’s all. 

There is absolutely no doubt about seeing there is no I in this body, no entity, except of the imagined one.
Smoke and mirrors.
Without expectations everything is ok.

With expectations everything is ok too. 



Vivian, your last questions really brought it home for me. It’s so ordinary and so beyond words extraordinary at the same time! So humbling. So much gratitude for you and your spot on guidance!


Olivia

Hi Olivia,

Nothing is incomplete. This is so humbling. There were so many expectations left and without them, this moment, this life is such precious unfolding it moves me to tears. Or tears are happening to nobody, sensations and thoughts of so much gratitude arising. That’s all. 

There is absolutely no doubt about seeing there is no I in this body, no entity, except of the imagined one.
Smoke and mirrors.
Without expectations everything is ok.

With expectations everything is ok too. 



Vivian, your last questions really brought it home for me. It’s so ordinary and so beyond words extraordinary at the same time! So humbling. So much gratitude for you and your spot on guidance!

You are most welcome :) Yes, it is simple and ordinary.

As we talked about this at the beginning, seeing that there is no separate self is a beginning and not an end.

So, as you’ve already discovered, the idea of a self still comes up in certain situations. Now begins the undoing of all beliefs, patterns and conditioning that seems to keep the idea of the separate self in place. And there is no time frame to this, as many years of conditioning doesn’t disappear overnight. There will be a yo-yoing of clarity and then there will be times of doubt and confusion. It is all normal. Just keep looking and investigating. Don't stop.

An utopia mind movie playing about Olivia who should be composed and peaceful, and better than before and even better than others (her boyfriend), and never get triggered emotionally after her awakening, especially not in front of her boyfriend. LOL!! OMG..

Nice story huh? :)

Can Olivia awaken?

What does awakening happen TO?

What is it that awakens?

Is there something standing separate from life, so it can awaken to it?

Vivien