Seeing that Frees

[Mamaki]

Dear Vince

Good day!

You suggested:

'Stay with this until the migraine ends. Meditate on it and the head pain. Watch for stories about the migraine.'

By the time I got this message the migraine was over. When I look back my thoughts were about what had caused it. A story about stress at work.  I was able to relax more than usual with the symptoms. I remember once the main symptoms had subsided thinking how I was just relishing lots of quiet and rest. That I could rest and sleep forever.
I couldn't really look the question of a controlling self head on.

I behave as if I have a controlling self as I thought the migraine was about me. I compared this one with ones previously.

Even though I recognise the stories I tell about self they are slipping out of my grasp when I try to look.

If I want to drop the belief in the story do I try to see all that is happening as all that is happening without a personal story?

Many thanks

Blessings

Mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

I behave as if I have a controlling self

There is a huge implication in what you say here. Can you detail it a bit more please?

Even though I recognise the stories I tell about self they are slipping out of my grasp when I try to look.

What story comes up about this?

If I want to drop the belief in the story

"want" is a story in itself. ..but it is an intention that has arisen. Implied in the question is a belief that you have control over this. What is this story?

great love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hi vince

I said 'I behave as if I have a controlling self'

You said 'There is a huge implication in what you say here. Can you detail it a bit more please?'

My response is 'I have thoughts that claim ownership of decisions,  thoughts that continuously refer to a 'me' who is doing this and that. I tell and retell my life story or the why's and wherefores of how things happened in my life or will happen. I am telling myself this. This is what I do'.

I said 'Even though I recognise the stories I tell about self they are slipping out of my grasp when I try to look.'

You asked 'What story comes up about this?'

My response is 'I should be able to clearly see the thought stories when I look. I can decide to do that independently. I can see that this is a belief in a controlling self - another story'

I said 'f I want to drop the belief in the story'

You said "want" is a story in itself. ..but it is an intention that has arisen. Implied in the question is a belief that you have control over this. What is this story?

My response is 'The story is saying I can decide and carry out a course of action that will help me drop the story. I guess this is all the controlling self's thought story that I react to!

Thanks vince

I so appreciate your questions and perspective

Blessings

Mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

My response is 'I should be able to...

if you investigate the story of "should", what arises?

I can decide to do that

Are decisions something that you have investigated yet?

I can see that this is a belief in a controlling self - another story'

Ah, i guess that you have. Can you write a line of two about this please?

I guess this is all the controlling self's thought story that I react to!

Ha, i guess that today's focus is on the controlling story.
When you 'spell it out' (the story), notice what happens in the body.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Good morning Mamaki,

My response is 'I should be able to...

If you investigate the story of "should", what arises?

Should wants to force me to fit a particular way to be. It assumes its possible and the only possible way. Should says you must. Should says you are not OK, you are doing it wrong. Should says unless you do it this way...
Should is seen as a sentence and felt in the back of the mouth. I notice a jolt of tightness in my right leg like a cringe first with the sentence hot on its tail.

I can decide to do that

Are decisions something that you have investigated yet?

I have investigated decisions a little. Over the past 4 years since I came across LU I've been using the Enlightening Quotes App. I sometimes notice how I just do something and I never decided in my head to do it. Like when or how to get out of bed. Or what to say at certain times, it just happens...I understand intellectually that this is the truth all the time but just glimpses is what I get.

I can see that this is a belief in a controlling self - another story'

Ah, i guess that you have. Can you write a line of two about this please?

Yes sure but No actually I don't really get this! This is intellectual understanding not experience...can't see the wood for the trees of thought looking at thought...I assume a controlling self from the experience of thoughts saying stuff beginning with 'I' as if it is steering things. There is a sense of story because I am labelling what I'm experiencing frequently and it seems to hang together as a narrative...when I relax and open in experience I can see the thoughts more clearly...

I guess this is all the controlling self's thought story that I react to!

Ha, i guess that today's focus is on the controlling story.
When you 'spell it out' (the story), notice what happens in the body.

I couldn't find the controlling self or a continuous thought story when I really took time to look. Only experience of sounds, sensations and thoughts happening. The thoughts kept assuming there was an 'I"experiencing everything. By this I mean I would hear the thought commentating about experience and relating it back to 'me'.

Mmm it all feels a bit tangled and intellectual.

I look forward to your response!

With appreciation and gratitude

Mamaki

[Mamaki]

Haha, sorry to address you as Mamaki in my last post! Freud comes to mind!!

[vinceschubert]

Good day Mamaki,

Should says...

So, should we take any notice of it?

I understand intellectually that this is the truth all the time but just glimpses is what I get.

Do you experience a 'big head' when a decision delivers the intended outcome? ..or disappointment at your 'self' when it doesn't?

I can see that this is a belief in a controlling self - another story'

This is intellectual understanding, not experience...

Ok, this opens up a much broader discussion. Expectations are included in it.
It is impossible in our culture not to use personal pronouns. In conversation, if i say "I,Me,Mine, etc" does that mean that i have to mentally acknowledge that i don't really mean it?
The concept of a self is really useful when it comes to communication. If i believe that i have a controlling self running the show, then i am deluded. If i behave as if i have one, but the moment that i think about it, it is obvious that it isn't actual, then i have experienced an illusion.
If i get the 'head swell' or the disappointment, then i probably need to investigate further what identification is operating.

The thoughts kept assuming there was an 'I"experiencing everything.

Of course. This is what thought does. Do you recognize that when a thought is happening, that there is no compulsion to invest on what it is about?

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hiya vince

Hope all is well where you are.

Should says...
So, should we take any notice of it?

No! It's a crushing word.  A sapper of vitality. Assuming what is happening is not as it should be. But to answer your question literally we need to notice it, to spot it and not take it literally.

I understand intellectually that this is the truth all the time but just glimpses is what I get.
Do you experience a 'big head' when a decision delivers the intended outcome? ..or disappointment at your 'self' when it doesn't?

Definitely yes! Yesterday I watched myself swell with a desired outcome and I've felt regularly disappointed with myself today for not achieving certain things. Sometimes with awareness I catch these moments and loosen the thought story of self inflation or blame, but this is a real indication of believing in my 'self' as controller.

I can see that this is a belief in a controlling self - another story'
This is intellectual understanding, not experience...
Ok, this opens up a much broader discussion. Expectations are included in it.
It is impossible in our culture not to use personal pronouns. In conversation, if i say "I,Me,Mine, etc" does that mean that i have to mentally acknowledge that i don't really mean it?

Not sure, perhaps it depends on if the delusion of a controlling self is seen through? If it were then the shift in perception would recognise the 'I' popping up and not take it seriously. But of course this is conjecture and expectation! I don't really know. It's certainly something I have been doing when I remember.  Catching a sense of ownership of experience.

The concept of a self is really useful when it comes to communication. If i believe that i have a controlling self running the show, then i am deluded. If i behave as if i have one, but the moment that i think about it, it is obvious that it isn't actual, then i have experienced an illusion.
If i get the 'head swell' or the disappointment, then i probably need to investigate further what identification is operating.

The thoughts kept assuming there was an 'I"experiencing everything.

Of course. This is what thought does. Do you recognize that when a thought is happening, that there is no compulsion to invest on what it is about?

Sometimes I recognise lack of compulsion to invest in a thought as its happening. In meditation there can be letting go of content. So investment comes and goes but sometimes investment is entirely compulsive and lasts a  long time like hours even days.

with love and appreciation

Mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

sometimes investment is entirely compulsive and lasts a long time like hours even days.

There is a lifetime of conditioning (habit) behind this.
Now, this is really important. You are not going to stop this instantly. Habits persist. The really important thing with this isn't that it happens. It is that the moment that you realize that it has happened you celebrate that the delusion has become an illusion. Illusions might (probably) engender a sense of awe, but they don't control your behavior as delusions do.
Now, an exercise;
The aim of this exercise is to celebrate recognition.
Celebrating recognition increases the incidence of recognition.
Recognition makes triggers more easily visible. (triggers are the bodily responses that tell you that you have (or are about to be) sucked into the contents of a story)
So, in the beginning, you might recognize that your emotions have been hijacked by the contents of a story some time after it happens. It doesn't matter when the recognition happens - you celebrate.
You celebrate with a laugh.
That laugh can be out loud, it can be a quiet chuckle, a smile or a mental (imagined) laugh. Any of these will flood your body with feel good hormones. A reward for recognising...
In time the recognizing will happen when you are about to get sucked in. When this happens you will know that the habit is about to wither to nothing (or very little)
Also a big one; Remember that success or failure is a (stupid) story. Recognize it when it happens.

With love

vince

[Mamaki]

Good day vince

It was so encouraging to read your post and to have a way in to those all encompassing stories.

I loved the instruction to laugh
'the moment that you realize that it has happened you celebrate that the delusion has become an illusion'
and that the laugh makes you feel good.

Today I saw the story of hating work more clearly and how it started as a response to the journey getting there and proliferated from then on. Hostile environments etc. I chuckled and felt motivated to keep looking out for these stories.

Later there was a beautiful story about walking in nature in the spring sunshine. I preferred the feelings from that one!

Interesting to clock that success or failure is another story.

I guess this exercise is an ongoing one.

How much should I share about it?

Spring blessings

Mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

I guess this exercise is an ongoing one.

Yes, though it will fall away as an exercise as it becomes habit. The time will come when you will experience a recognizing that a story is about to suck you in, before it actually starts.
Now, if that recognition happens before a story and your involvement in it has run it's course, what happens?

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Good morning vince

I found it hard to know what to write about stories and celebrating recognition. Last night I wrote out 3 ways I had seen myself that day and found it easier to write it than think about it.

Now, if that recognition happens before a story and your involvement in it has run it's course, what happens?

This is an interesting way to see how self as story might eventually drop away. It seems so hard though. Will I ever get there! I've been indirectly loosening stories for years, particularly painful ones of low self worth...

I guess, 'will I get there?' is a story, like you said, a stupid one of success and failure.

All good wishes

Mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

if that recognition happens before a story and your involvement in it has run it's course, what happens?

Last night I wrote out 3 ways I had seen myself that day

Hmm, i was wanting you to focus on the moment that recognition happened. In that moment, what happens to the story that is running?

Will I ever get there! I've been indirectly loosening stories for years, particularly painful ones of low self worth...

Ha, and they are the easy ones. The really hard ones to release are the ones that make us feel good. (but don't worry, the feeling good doesn't go. Only the reason for it changes)

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Good day vince

Hmm, i was wanting you to focus on the moment that recognition happened. In that moment, what happens to the story that is running?

Difficult to write about. Looking for these stories is hard. I may be trying too hard but it feels like I'm seeing them much less easily than before I deliberately looked!
It intuitively feels as if the stories dissolve once recognition happens. But I'm worried I'm just saying the 'right thing'! This is a story too.
I get the difference between delusion and illusion in that seeing the story makes it lighter and I'm less caught up in it. Believe it less. The emotions start rolling with it then recognition unhooks them a little. As its so swimmy trying to look I forget to laugh but I trust this will get easier!

The really hard ones to release are the ones that make us feel good. (but don't worry, the feeling good doesn't go. Only the reason for it changes)

Mmm, yes interesting and scarey! Reassuring the feeling good doesn't go away...
Can you tell me how to look in my everyday life? Should it be just whenever I remember or do I create some meditative spaces for looking?

Leafy blessings of the northern hemisphere

Mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

It intuitively feels as if the stories dissolve once recognition happens.

Yes, this is what i was pointing at.

But I'm worried I'm just saying the 'right thing'! This is a story too.

The worry is certainly a story. The dissolving can be confirmed by observing experiencing.

seeing the story makes it lighter and I'm less caught up in it. Believe it less. The emotions start rolling with it then recognition unhooks them a little. As its so swimmy trying to look I forget to laugh but I trust this will get easier!

Absolutely. ..and it takes practice to have this happen more easily and more frequently. We are establishing new conditioning and allowing the old conditioning to atrophy.

Can you tell me how to look in my everyday life? Should it be just whenever I remember or do I create some meditative spaces for looking?

Remembering will create that meditative space. Looking happens.
If you meditate, then use some of it to imagine yourself joyfully recognizing any story that arises. Imagine that the destructive ones dissolve with the acknowledgment and that the useful ones have adaptive outcomes while being seen for what they are.
Tell me what you understand by decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

with love

vince