The Gate

Hi,

You're welcome :)

From what your saying below, is it right to say that I seem to be on the right track and I just need to continue practising (and remembering to practise) trying to just see without the labels, attachments, negativity, judgment, resistance, reactivity? (and just directly experiencing things).

Yes, you're just doing fine - you've found the way working for you for finding and experiencing your true self. Just keep practicing. It's like you were starving and now you've learned how to fish in order to nourish yourself. You don't know everything yet about fishing/your true self, but you know that you why you do it.

Today I had another glimpse of my ‘true’ nature when I just let my attention rest (fall, sink, dissolve) back into my awareness, by not focusing on, and attaching to any object at all. Just letting things be.

Yes, it is just letting things be. This beingness has no need to anything - need for being something, reaching something comes from our own distorted thinking patterns. This beingness is all there is, it has no need to fix, it has no need to understand. Understanding what is perfect is insane and driver human beings crazy. That love, peace, awareness is your true being - the more you focus on that, the more it will be in your life. What you focus on, increases.

It was only there for a few moments but the inner calmness and contentment has lasted for hours. (I learned of this direct experience example from combining a few instructors teachings but mainly Rupert Spira).

Is the above a good example of what I should be practising?

I hoped for a ‘sudden realisation’ but it seems more likely that my journey may be a gradual realisation through experience?.

Hmm, now when you've got "connection back" to your true self, why not to ask these questions from there?
But here's some points:
- at the beginning it will last few hours. There is variety - there are only few people on the world, who get this it last from the very first moment to "end". We "normal" people train our minds not fall back so often. So unconditioning your beliefs to be in conjunction with your true being is your next and lifelong project. It' called growing :) But is rewarding beyond your dreams. Living in love and peace is a gift that I hope all humans could experience.
- many people wait on/off realization, but on reality it just "get a glimpse of what's there" and journey has begun. Congratulate yourself!
- as said don't try to understand what you really are, try to understand why you've imagined all these years not being that.

This is pretty deep stuff, and i can feel my ‘I’ doesn’t know or like where this is going- perhaps a fear of realising my ‘I’ or ego is not needed or real- and all of the implications if this is realised from experience....

I can read from your answers, that you've realized very well about illusion of "I". You see that you were living between two worlds: your true self and "I". You hopefully now realize which one was imaginary? And you gave your power to it? All your sufferings belong to that imaginary "I" which doesn't exist. No owner, so suffering. And see that thing also on other human beings. See through the cover/I that you've imagined to be there - see their true self and you never have anything but love towards everyone.

And yes, "I" is useful concept on this society just like Santa Claus - but just don't make it real...

There are lots of material and writings describing true self - soon you write your own too :)

Do you thing you would be ready for the final questions?

-thefin

Thanks.

It’s good to know I am on the right track. I guess if this is it, then I will continue practising what we discussed.

I asked those questions when I went there and the response was there is nothing to ask, nothing to understand, just being there is it...

I guess I’m ready for the final question. I hoped I would be more sure but I guess it’s a journey.

At least I understand the power of what I experienced, and that this is the place to be. I guess this is what is meant by once I know the real self I won’t forget it (although I guess everyone forgets it when they get sucked into the grind of daily life). The more I practice this self realisation the stronger I will see the illusion I guess.

Thanks a lot

Hi,

Yes, this is a journey and you've got a beautiful start for it. The illusion will diminish day by day and the real self will come stronger and stronger. Illusion of "I" is surely the biggest obstacle for understanding and realizing "Who I am". Too many people try to get rid of I/ego etc, but the problem is that they're on eternal loop for getting rid of something, that doesn't even exist. We're learning here :) You've learned to look the illusion and you've seen through that - just keep on looking. Always on your journey LOOK the illusion your logic mind gives to you and you SEE, it's just illusion. You know now what's real.

Here comes the final questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

-thefin

Thanks a lot.

In response to your questions:

1) No

2) Just an illusion. I experienced who I am.

3) Painful but freeing. I have made sense of my experiences and been given direction.

4) Will

5) a)
Decision: making a choice
Intention: having a purpose
Free will: having freedom
Choice: having options
Control: having power
- all the above can come from self made mind or arise from a deeper presence by way of feelings
- what makes things happen: on a surface level ‘us’. But in reality it is not known.
-example: I brought a coffee. The choice came from a thought. But the thought is just a concept. I didn’t need a coffee to be complete

5b) which I? The deep I is responsible for nothing. The mind made I is responsible for many things. I am late, the deep I is nothing, the surface I is responsible for being on time.

6) thanks a lot for your guidance!

Hi,

Thanks for you answers, they were quite short. I asked also from other guides about your answers.

2) Just an illusion. I experienced who I am.

What you mean here by "I"? SeekerJ experienced?

all the above can come from self made mind or arise from a deeper presence by way of feelings

Could you clarify this? Decision doesn't come from "self made mind." What means for you this "deeper presence" If I were you, I'd continue checking these beliefs. "I experienced who I am." I'd check this, also.

If you go back to exercise - here's some notes from them.
- where is the doer?
- who is doing the seeing?
- what this concept (just only concept, made by us) true self is? Do you move between SeekerJ and that? Or no move at all?
- who is in control?
- where the thoughts are coming from? Who controls them?
- what is doing experiences?
- is the body the experiencer or the body is an experience?
- what is doing the experiences?
- where is future? where is past?

Just a few points here - if you could give your explanations to them?

-thefin

2) I as in awareness - the beingness of I = that which knows or expereinces.

Self mind made from a relative perspective as awareness simply knows itself the infinite and cannot know the finite.

- where is the doer? Awareness
- who is doing the seeing? awareness
- what this concept (just only concept, made by us) true self is? Do you move between SeekerJ and that? Or no move at all? true self is awareness.
- who is in control? awareness
- where the thoughts are coming from? Who controls them? awareness
- what is doing experiences? awareness
- is the body the experiencer or the body is an experience? experience
- what is doing the experiences? awareness
- where is future? where is past? nowhere only now, these are man made consepts

I hope these answers are ok

Let me know if there is anything left to be learned

Thanks a lot for all your guidance!

Hi,

I think your answers tell still there's quite a lot of things to make more clear. And I don't exactly know now how to help you better.

I'll ask if some other guide could help you.

-then

Hello SeekerJ,
My name is Ron and I'll be happy to resume guiding you through your inquiry if you'd like.

I ask that for the duration of this inquiry you'd let go of all books, youtube videos and the likes related to enlightenment, spiritual search, personal growth, it will only add confusion.

We are going to be exploring beliefs, not adding new ones. This means that you don’t need to believe anything I say, quite the contrary, you have to verify everything I point to experimentally. This is about seeing clearly, assumptions and guesses are worthless in the inquiry, and I would like to start fresh with this in mind.

The key ingredients are honesty and curiosity. Please post daily, and if you can't or need more time, just let me know.

Agreed?

What should I call you?

Regards,
Ron

Hi Ron,

Agreed. Sorry I thought i understood thefin's guidance but I must have misinterpreted some things.

Thanks for your further help,

SeekerJ

Sorry I thought i understood thefin's guidance but I must have misinterpreted some things.

Not at all! Guides have different styles and the way they look at things isn't identical. There is no right or wrong, but certain pointers work better or worse for different people. We're going to take a fresh start so please have no worries about it.

OK, let's jump right in. you already discussed direct experience but let's define it clearly:

Unlike learning where you build an understanding through thinking and reasoning, here we look.
1) Looking is always done right now, at this very moment.
2) it’s being aware of sound, taste, smell, sensation and colors (images) to see what is really present - actual experience AE or also called direct experience (DE).
3) In addition to these sense perceptions, we are also noticing thoughts - not thinking, but noticing all thoughts as they appear. Thought content will pull you away from looking directly, but by continuous and steady looking you will inevitably unveil the trick they play in creating the illusion of an "I".
The content of thoughts is an imagined reality, think about your last meal, the thought is here, but the food isn't. That is why this inquiry can never ever be achieved via thinking and learning, and that is why the long and winding spiritual seeking effort is mostly futile.

Again, thinking will not help you realize what the self is, you have to look and experience everything directly. All I can do is ask you questions that point to something you can experience, and at times provide you with some exercises that when done with curiosity and attention can be extremely helpful.

Let me know if any of this isn't perfectly clear.

Please sit down for a bit, and watch carefully:
What is there?

Sounds (from around you, from your body)
Sights (even if your eyes are closed)
sensations in the hands, arms, feet, head etc., weight of your body, maybe an itch..
smells (may be faint)
tastes (may be faint)
thoughts - these appear as words, images, sounds (a tune, a voice) and any of the senses. More often than not, thoughts appear in streams that tell stories about the past and future, what I should and shouldn't have done etc. Would you agree?

1. please provide one or more examples that you noticed on each of these items
(e.g. humming sound from the refrigerator in the kitchen),
For each of these items, please tell me which part of it is AE and what is imagined with thoughts?

2. Can you find anything else? Anything at all that isn't on the list?
Don't let anything escape because this list is all that is here to experience, so be very thorough.

Regards
Ron

1. please provide one or more examples that you noticed on each of these items
(e.g. humming sound from the refrigerator in the kitchen),
For each of these items, please tell me which part of it is AE and what is imagined with thoughts?

Sounds (car driving past, people talking, laptop humming) the hearing is AE and the visualisation of these things (as I cannot see them) is thoughts.
Sights (bed, laptop, building, windows) the seeing is AE, these then my thoughts attach these labels to these objects.
sensations in the hands, arms, feet, head etc., (sore shoulder, feeling of the desk, feeling of paper) the feeling is AE, then my thoughts attach labels to these sensations.
smells (lavender oil) the smell is AE, then my thought attachs the oil.
tastes (taste of muffin) the taste is AE, then my mind says this is the taste of a muffin
thoughts (what I need to do now and tonight's plans),none of these are AE, these are commentary from my mind

2. Can you find anything else? Anything at all that isn't on the list?
Don't let anything escape because this list is all that is here to experience, so be very thorough.

A sense of being me.
Thoughts about thoughts.
Feelings about thoughts

Thanks!

Hi SeekerJ,

Well done, but:

thoughts (what I need to do now and tonight's plans),none of these are AE, these are commentary from my mind

Thoughts/labels are known phenomena just as sound, sensation, taste, smell and color are known. thought either points to AE or it points to thoughts about thought (e.g. concepts or stories).

For example, the thought ‘cat’ is real. It is an arising thought and is an actual experience of thought. There is awareness of it as it arises, just as you are aware of senses like sight or sound.. However, what does the thought ‘cat’ point to? Does it point to the actual experience or does it point to thoughts about something called a cat? Here is the breakdown of what a cat actually IS. Please read it carefully.

The thought-label ‘cat’ is an actual experience (AE) of thought and not AE of a cat
Color labelled ‘cat’ is AE of color (sight) and not AE of a cat
Sensation labelled ‘cat’ is AE of sensation and not AE of a cat
Smell labelled ‘wet cat’ is AE of smell and not AE of a a wet cat
Thoughts about ‘cat’ (the content of the thought ‘cat’) is just more thought and is AE of thought and not AE of a cat.

So what is found as direct/actual experience (what is actually known) is:-

Thought-label + color + sensation + smell + thoughts ABOUT cat. However, a cat is not known. A cat cannot be found in direct actual experience.
Please read this a couple of times, this is the key to clarity.

R: Can you find anything else? Anything at all that isn't on the list?
Don't let anything escape because this list is all that is here to experience, so be very thorough.

S: A sense of being me.
Thoughts about thoughts.
Feelings about thoughts

Yes, thoughts about thoughts is right, but they are still just thoughts.
What are feelings? What are they made of? Is there a sense called "feelings"?

What is that sense of being me?
Find it, what is it? Is "being me" a type of sense? what is made of? If it's not, maybe it's imagined?
Spend time investigating carefully and let me know what you did and what you find.

Best
Ron

OK, so you can only directly know your senses but you cannot directly know what your sense is experiencing (i.e. can know you are thinking, but cannot directly know the thought you are thinking about is a cat, as this is the content of a thought?)

What are feelings? What are they made of? Is there a sense called "feelings"?

Feelings are a sensation in the body (an emotional state). I label them under the sense of touch/ sensing. Like thoughts they come and go. We directly know that we are having a feeling but then to know the contents of that feeling we need to label it, which means it is a thought about a feeling and is no longer a AE?

What is that sense of being me?
Find it, what is it? Is "being me" a type of sense? what is made of? If it's not, maybe it's imagined?

The sense within me of spacious presence which is always present in the background of life. It is the only unchanging thing about me. This is my true me, and allows me to experience all of my senses? Without this I am not able to be aware of anything? It is not imagined, I don't need to think about it (if I do think about it then I am not able to be it), I can't see, hear, touch, smell or taste it. I can feel it - but when I go there in meditation is has a presence of its own, completely outside my senses. To go there I need to calm my mind (no mind) and focus my attention inwards or completely dissolve it. It feels like going home.

OK, so you can only directly know your senses but you cannot directly know what your sense is experiencing (i.e. can know you are thinking, but cannot directly know the thought you are thinking about is a cat, as this is the content of a thought?)

The only direct experience is made of what we call the 5 senses, and the appearance of thoughts, which are also experienced. The thought content is an imagined experience, try to eat the word "bread" or drink the thought "water".

Feelings are a sensation in the body (an emotional state). I label them under the sense of touch/ sensing. Like thoughts they come and go. We directly know that we are having a feeling but then to know the contents of that feeling we need to label it, which means it is a thought about a feeling and is no longer a AE?

Right, so a sensation appears and tagged as "contraction in the gut" and a thought tags it as "stress", when you look at the actual experience, is there anything here outside a sensations, tags (thoughts) and more thoughts?

The sense within me of spacious presence which is always present in the background of life. It is the only unchanging thing about me. This is my true me, and allows me to experience all of my senses? Without this I am not able to be aware of anything?

This is a nice story that you can read in many spiritual books and quotes. I am not saying there aren't states in which this feels right, but look right now, here and identify that "specious presence in the background of life", what does it even mean? How do you know it's "the true me"? How do you know that it is what allows you to experience the senses?
See, this is just more story and requires you to adopt a belief. If you really see it without a doubt right now, ok, your work is done. Is it? Your question marks say otherwise.

If not, let's reject anything we cannot directly experience and look at reality, and stay open, if any realization lands without doubt, we'll consider them for what they are. Being awake is not a special state, it's a clear realization and it will never come from fantasies and stories, that's where it gets deluded and lost.

So what is that "sense of me" really made of? Is there one?
Close your eyes and notice how thoughts tag what is sensed as if it's coming from a "me":
- sounds, can you identify the thought that claims it's coming from your ears?
- look at an object, can you sense the eyes and notice the thoughts saying the eyes see the object?
- close your eyes and feel the hands or the breath - what tells you it's the hands or the breath? What tells you it's you?
Is any of these coming from experience, or from thoughts?
Is it possible that that "sense of me" is essentially sensations, sights, sounds and thoughts? Something to keep looking for over and over and over. Is there anything in reality BUT the sights, smells, sensations, tastes, sounds and thoughts?
We'll come back to this later.


Let's take a closer look at thoughts, they are the key and they are fascinating.
Please answer each of these questions in blue:
Can you predict your next thought?
How do you make a thought appear (or, how do you give birth to a thought)?
where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to?
Could you have only pleasant thoughts for say a few minutes?
Can you stop having thoughts?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop a thought in the middle?

Thanks for your guidance Ron.

Right, so a sensation appears and tagged as "contraction in the gut" and a thought tags it as "stress", when you look at the actual experience, is there anything here outside a sensations, tags (thoughts) and more thoughts?

I don't think there is anything outside your description. I have a sensation ('stomach feels tight), I have a thought (labels this as worry), and more thoughts (i.e. where it came from, why worried etc).

"specious presence in the background of life", what does it even mean? How do you know it's "the true me"? How do you know that it is what allows you to experience the senses?

I agree. I meditated for the first time this morning in a few months. The first 20 mins I had a monkey mind. Then I felt calm, content, empty, space work through me. I felt the limitations of my body end, and I felt transparent and light like the sky but also alert and powerful. The next 20 mins felt like a few seconds. After my meditation I awoke and things felt more calm and clear. The problems in my life felt distant and foreign. Then my life and problems started coming back. However, this calm presence has remained in the background of my life during the morning. This is my experience, and the first time I experienced this feeling I identified with it as some sort of truth as it feels true and is untouched by anything in my life. I don't know why its a true me, but when i experience this space I just know that it is. I don't know what it means but I think it is 'me' before all of me is added on top; senses, thoughts, labels etc. If this presence is first then it comes before senses, so it feels my senses and everything arises from or out of this presence in some way. I have always been quite sensitive to my and others feelings which is good and bad. But as soon as my life comes back my mind says this experience is not important and I dont have time to meditate but I need to continually improve myself etc. It is very interesting.

So what is that "sense of me" really made of? Is there one?
Close your eyes and notice how thoughts tag what is sensed as if it's coming from a "me":
- sounds, can you identify the thought that claims it's coming from your ears? Yes
- look at an object, can you sense the eyes and notice the thoughts saying the eyes see the object? Yes but it happens almost instantly, it is very difficult to be aware of as it is happening.
- close your eyes and feel the hands or the breath - what tells you it's the hands or the breath? What tells you it's you?
Is any of these coming from experience, or from thoughts? thoughts, without thoughts its just a feeling
Is it possible that that "sense of me" is essentially sensations, sights, sounds and thoughts? Something to keep looking for over and over and over. Is there anything in reality BUT the sights, smells, sensations, tastes, sounds and thoughts?
We'll come back to this later.

Yes I agree. When I do this experience it seems that 'I' (my life history etc) just comes from 5 senses with thoughts and feelings attached to it. Remove the thoughts and feelings, then there is no 'me', there just is...?

Let's take a closer look at thoughts, they are the key and they are fascinating.
Please answer each of these questions in blue:

Can you predict your next thought? I don't think so. When I do it is just a thought thinking about what I will think next?
How do you make a thought appear (or, how do you give birth to a thought)? Usually it just happens, then afterwards sometimes I am aware of my thought flow and sometimes I am too absorbed and I don't realise. I can try to make a thought but again it would be a thought saying lets make a thought happen.
where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to? Not sure. Out of nowhere I guess?
Could you have only pleasant thoughts for say a few minutes? I could if I really tried, but it would take a lot of work, and it would be a thought saying I am only going to have pleasant thoughts. Without deliberately trying, then I have no control over my thoughts.
Can you stop having thoughts? Yes, when I deliberately try such as during a meditation. But if I am not trying then I have no control of what thoughts I have and their contents.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? This one is difficult as soon as I think i will prevent myself from thinking X then I have already thought of X. But I can stop myself from having many further thoughts of X but only for a short time.
Can you stop a thought in the middle? If i try I can stop a train of thoughts or disrupt it. but if i am not trying then I cant.