idontknowwhattosay

[vinceschubert]

Good day Mayank,

To be honest its hard to comprehend when you say that resolution to questions isn't answers,

Ok, let's investigate this more deeply.
Think of a question. Say "what time is it?"
Can you see that thoughts are directed towards finding out an answer immediately? The question is pushed to the back of the mind until an answer is either found or not.
It's a case of being immediately seduced into the content of a story. (in this case, how do I find out - find a clock, look at a watch, check my phone, etc)
Now, ask the question again, and this time keep the focus on the question.
Out of that question will come other questions. "why do I want to know?", "Is it important right now?" "Do i want to know because of a deadline?", "is this a habitual thing that I do?" etc...
Don't look for answers to these questions either.
Consider the possibility that every question has the answer built into it - without attempting to define that answer.
Without chasing down a psychological rabbit hole, consider that the reason for any question isn't the answer, but something else. For example, you might ask a question in order to appear knowledgeable or empathic to somebody (or yourself)
Anyway, not to make too big of a deal about this at the moment. Just consider that there is much more to questions than answers. ...and that the answer might just be a 'red herring'. (do you know this term?)

I just can't be there just experiencing anything without adding some story to it.

Exactly. There is a lifetime of conditioning (habit) behind this.
Now, this is really important. You are not going to stop this instantly. Habits persist. The really important thing with this isn't that it happens. It is that the moment that you realize that it has happened you celebrate that the delusion has become an illusion. Illusions might (probably) engender a sense of awe, but they don't control your behavior as delusions do.
Now, an exercise;
The aim of this exercise is to celebrate recognition.
Celebrating recognition increases the incidence of recognition.
Recognition makes triggers more easily visible. (triggers are the bodily responses that tell you that you have (or are about to be) sucked into the contents of a story)
So, in the beginning, you might recognize that your emotions have been hijacked by the contents of a story some time after it happens. It doesn't matter when the recognition happens - you celebrate.
You celebrate with a laugh.
That laugh can be out loud, it can be a quiet chuckle, a smile or a mental (imagined) laugh. Any of these will flood your body with feel good hormones. A reward for recognising...
In time the recognizing will happen when you are about to get sucked in. When this happens you will know that the habit is about to wither to nothing (or very little)
Also a big one; Remember that success or failure is a (stupid) story. Recognize it when it happens.


with love & compassion

vince

[mayank6576]

Just consider that there is much more to questions than answers. ...and that the answer might just be a 'red herring'. (do you know this term?)

Just as I asked myself what time is it? I instantly tried to figure out the answer, i immediately thought of all the possibilities where I could find the answer, like should I move the cursor up to see the time, should I check my phone, should I lean a little to catch a glimpse of the clock on the wall across the room. When I just focused on the question i noticed that the urge to know the time so bad is not very strong ( I closed my eyes while doing it and after a while I was blank, for a moment I felt like the question was not there anymore and it is not very important ). I think I get it when you mean there is much more to questions than answers, I could completely resonate with the example you gave, that I might ask a question to appear knowledgeable or empathic to somebody (or yourself), its mostly myself. I am constantly trying to prove myself that I am intelligent and have to know answers. I am seriously trying to consider the possibility that there is more to questions than answers and that answers might just be a 'red herring'. I did not know this term, i googled it though ; I can understand that most of the times the answers are misleading and they are something that I want them to be, if they are not I resist.

Now, an exercise

Ahh, now the fun part of the day. I think I gave this exercise a good try through out the day, it was always in the back of my mind. Though when I recognised the story, it just shuts itself down sometimes. Also I forgot most of the times that I had to laugh too... because I was there trying to think about the stupid story that I was going to immerse myself into or that I was already rolling in it for the past few minutes. There were lot of incidents today when I realised the triggering thought which leads to an action. Sometimes I realised after I did the action or while doing it or rarely before it, and I was able to stop myself from doing it. I got to know few more things about my own behaviour today, they were things I already knew somewhere but never paid attention to it. Couple of incidents that I would like to mention, I was walking my dog out, and she is very misbehaved and never listens ( too pampered i guess ), she pulls on the leash and somehow managed to come out of it today (she is skinny being a mixed hound breed ), and she ran around on the road, running in front of vehicles, being chased by other male dogs, when I finally caught hold of her, angry thoughts started coming to my mind instantly, I wanted to grab hard on her and shout at her for being so misbehaved and not listening to my command to come back to me, but then I noticed these thoughts and how they were going to affect my next course of action, which probably would have ended in me being a bad angry mood, I calmed myself down and noticed that there are other ways to handle this situation. ( I forgot to laugh when I caught the train of thought (hehe) ). Next incident was around the same time when I saw a very beautiful girl on the road, with a nice body, my mind instantly started to imagine me being with her, but I was able to catch that thought before I could marry her and do all the things I wanted to do to her in my thoughts my imagination. ( I laughed hard this time ). There were lot of other incidents where I appreciated that I was able to recognise my thoughts ( the story building ).
I must say I really enjoyed trying to recognise my own thoughts and by just paying attention to them I could stop myself from rolling in mud even though it was just handful of times. I will continue to do this till I hear from you next.
I am very thankful to you Vince for taking your time out to help me on this journey. I am excited about the next assignment/insight . I hope I did justice to the task that you gave me and I know I can only go deeper from here.

Looking forward to hear from you.

Good night Vince.

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Mayank,

Though when I recognized the story, it just shuts itself down sometimes

Yes, just seeing a story emerge is often enough for it to dissolve. Sometimes though, we don't realize that we were lost in a story's content until long after it happens. It doesn't matter how much time has passed when recognition happens, still laugh in celebration.
Certain triggers are more 'powerful' and it's those ones that take the most occurrences before they weaken or desist. They deserve a bigger laugh. (rofl)

by just paying attention to them I could stop myself from rolling in mud

You mentioned previously that you have seen that decisions happen on their own and that you have no control over the outcome, so what do you mean that you could stop yourself?

I calmed myself down and noticed that there are other ways to handle this situation.

It's habitual to talk like this, but particularly here, do try to be more pedantic. You didn't calm yourself down, calming happened with the noticing. (& yes, without high emotions, other ways present themselves) Please correct me if you don't agree.

I must say I really enjoyed trying to recognise my own thoughts

"Trying to recognise" seems like a doing. Would you agree that there are a few obvious conditions that led to that happening? For example; one would be that you read the suggestion to do it here. Another would be that when you read it there was an intention to give it a go. Another would be that the opportunity to allow it to happen was present. etc
Do you think that it happened this way, or do you think that there is some independent self somewhere running the show?

Another exercise; At random times during the next 24hours, notice yourself walking, talking, eating, etc then ask yourself if they are just happening or if there is a control element to them. Then take one of those and see if you can see a few of the conditions that make that happening possible.
Then imagine how many conditions it might take to make any one of those conditions possible.

with love

vince

[mayank6576]

Certain triggers are more 'powerful' and it's those ones that take the most occurrences before they weaken or desist.

I felt this when I was being dragged down by same recurring thoughts, I was able to notice them most of the time, later on I was able to notice them when they start to come and I laughed, although this occurred very few times.

You mentioned previously that you have seen that decisions happen on their own and that you have no control over the outcome, so what do you mean that you could stop yourself?

I don't know if it makes sense or if this is the correct answer to this question, but like I said when I notice a thought pattern it just stop all of a sudden, like it disappears in an instant. But me noticing the thought pattern, isn't it just another thought analysing another thought ?

You didn't calm yourself down, calming happened with the noticing. (& yes, without high emotions, other ways present themselves) Please correct me if you don't agree.

Yes absolutely right, without high emotions I was able to see other ways to handle the situation.

Do you think that it happened this way, or do you think that there is some independent self somewhere running the show?

You are right, because I read it here, I kept it in the back of my mind to notice my thoughts. Although the thought about noticing another thought presented itself on its own , I wouldn't say it was all intentional, I was just able to notice that a thought has noticed another thought, if that makes sense to you. I don't know if I did the exercise you gave me correctly. There is definitely not an independent self running the show, it's all happening on its own. The thought plane is so dynamic, like I have hundred of thoughts in a second. I am also afraid that I don't start making this another story to live with. Like it's a game that I play with myself.

Another exercise; At random times during the next 24hours, notice yourself walking, talking, eating, etc then ask yourself if they are just happening or if there is a control element to them. Then take one of those and see if you can see a few of the conditions that make that happening possible.
Then imagine how many conditions it might take to make any one of those conditions possible.

I believe gave this exercise a fair try, although I had a long day at work, here are my observations:
When the noticing happens of the current position or task that I am involved with, I realised that I have no control over what I do, I just do it, maybe because its a habitual thing for me , or its time to do that thing, or something happened few moments ago that made me do this thing. There are numerous conditions that leads to any happening. Also strangely when the noticing happens I feel like I was sleepwalking so far, like I had no clue what I was doing up until now. Few times when I noticed that I was walking, I felt that the body is moving on its own, like it knows how to walk on its own, I had no control over the moment of anything, the body reacts to new thing on its own, like there's a pothole ( I live in India, so you already know ) my body already knows what to do, change the course or steer clear or something, it just happens on its own, is it because of my knowledge of the situation, or I have muscle memory of every task that I do ?

Vince, thanks for guiding me and giving me all the exercises to work with.
Just to let you know that I wont be working for two days and have lots of time on hand, so I am up for a challenge, if you think I am ready for it.
Also can we discuss about direct experience and how I can get more acquainted with it.
Please guide me if I am loosing track or straying away from what I am supposed to do here.

Warm regards,
Mayank

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mayank,

later on I was able to notice them when they start to come and I laughed, although this occurred very few times.

Great! I'm impressed. It took much longer before i started to notice a story was about to happen. You're on fire.

I don't know if it makes sense or if this is the correct answer to this question, but like I said when I notice a thought pattern it just stop all of a sudden, like it disappears in an instant.

Your answer is a good description of that happening. i was trying to emphasise the fact that it (seems to) just happens.

But me noticing the thought pattern, isn't it just another thought analysing another thought ?

The key word here is "analysing". Did you get sucked into a story about how it was happening, or did that thought that noticed other thoughts just happen, get a reaction ("oh!") then disappear?
More on this soon.

Yes absolutely right, without high emotions I was able to see other ways to handle the situation.

Again my emphasis was missed. This time i was referring to language and how it distorts the actual.
To say that you calmed yourself down, makes it sound like a conscious force was applied, but that's not the way it happened, is it?

I was just able to notice that a thought has noticed another thought,

Same language distortion again. There was no flexing of an ability muscle. The noticing just happened.
If we need a story about how it happened, then the one about necessary conditions being present is (probably) more appropriate.

There is definitely not an independent self running the show, it's all happening on its own.

Good. Now to be pedantic; It seems to be happening on its own. The actual way it works is beyond the understanding of our conceptual thinking. It is too complex and the elements involved are infinite in number. It's better to just say that it's a mystery.

I am also afraid that I don't start making this another story to live with.

Ah! this is a big one.
Is it possible not to have stories emerge?
Is there a difference between seeing a story as a story, and being sucked into the contents of a story?

it just happens on its own, is it because of my knowledge of the situation, or I have muscle memory of every task that I do ?

It is the nature of mind (thoughts) to be busy creating explanations and descriptions. Your mind could easily become obsessed with attempting to know how these things happen. It is one of the biggest seducers. Just apply the same exercise of laughing when you recognize the story of "how" arrives.

Also can we discuss about direct experience and how I can get more acquainted with it.

We are already doing that. Haven't you noticed?

Just to let you know that I wont be working for two days and have lots of time on hand, so I am up for a challenge,

Let's see how it goes. There are so many seekers waiting at the gate (17 at last count) that i have taken on a few more, and as i can put an hour or more into each response...

with love

vince

[mayank6576]

Your answer is a good description of that happening. i was trying to emphasise the fact that it (seems to) just happens.

Also what seems to happen is when I become aware of the thought story and it disappears, I suddenly have this sense of awareness about the body. Like I am more in the present moment, i dont know if this was supposed to happen, but it did, maybe its pretty self-explanatory that when I dont have a cloudy mind all I have to focus on is the body?, but this was something I observed.

The key word here is "analysing". Did you get sucked into a story about how it was happening, or did that thought that noticed other thoughts just happen, get a reaction ("oh!") then disappear?

Yes the noticing happens and then nothing, few moments of silence, like there are no thoughts, just experience of the senses, which were always there but went unnoticed, and then thoughts come rushing back.

To say that you calmed yourself down, makes it sound like a conscious force was applied, but that's not the way it happened, is it?

No, it just happened on its own, all I could do was notice what was happening.

Is it possible not to have stories emerge?
Is there a difference between seeing a story as a story, and being sucked into the contents of a story?

I don't think its possible to not have stories emerge, heck, I have stories running right now, but seeing the stories as stories weakens them, I have started to have less anxious thought patterns like I used to after noticing them for the past days( theres also a sense of immediate peace and quietness after I notice the story) some are extremely less, that being said some new ones are here, and I am aware that these are new thought patterns that I have recently started to have because of a certain event. Some of these thoughts are about this experience and journey here, as Mayank wants to brag to a lot of people about what he has achieved here, and how it could be so beneficial for them, Mayank has started to form new stories about how he's going to do that, then the noticing happens and I chuckle, also these are not entirely new, Mayank has always had similar thought patterns where he wants to prove something or the other and achieve a status of an intelligent person or get some kind of validation from others, or maybe how they will praise Mayank for what he has done. I have started to realise very slowly what Mayank wants and what type of energy he feeds upon... So to answer your question theres a lot of difference between seeing a story as a story and being sucked into the contents of the story.

We are already doing that. Haven't you noticed?

I kind of had a taste of it when theres silence, quiteness like I have mentioned before, but its so short lived, and I so quicky start to bring up the labelling game. This screen that I can see is screen of MY laptop, the jeans hanging around the corner is MY raw denim that I like so much and invest so much time trying to get good fades, that I glance at it around 100 times a day. I attach myself to everything around me, and Mayank finds it very hard to believe that these are not his at all. I am like the Golum who's so attached to the RING that he just can't let go of it although he somewhere knows it's evil. I scream MY PRECIOUS to everything I own and latch to it like a monkey to the banana tree. I think this gets into my way of seeing things as mere things and not MY things.

Let's see how it goes. There are so many seekers waiting at the gate (17 at last count) that i have taken on a few more, and as i can put an hour or more into each response...

Lets see how it goes.....

Regards,
Mayank

[vinceschubert]

Good day Mayank,

when I become aware of the thought story and it disappears, I suddenly have this sense of awareness about the body. Like I am more in the present moment, ...when I dont have a cloudy mind all I have to focus on is the body?,

Excellent. ..and the inverse works too. If you do have a cloudy mind and you focus on the body, the mind will clear. It is one of the quickest ways out of unpleasant emotions.

and then thoughts come rushing back.

As they will, but with much less power to suck you in. Less and less as you continue practising recognition (and celebrating it)

it just happened on its own, all I could do was notice what was happening.

You need to keep this way of expressing yourself for when communicating with those not yet awake, but here (for the moment) we need to break the habit of expressing yourself this way, because language has a way of hypnotizing the user.
When you say "all I could do was notice.." i hope that you mean 'noticing happened' ? (which you did say a few lines above)

I don't think its possible to not have stories emerge,

Exactly. This is being human. It's the way the brain works. It is useful in navigating daily life.
In fact everything centers around stories. Is there anything that happens that doesn't start with a story?
Being awake is about the relationship we have with our stories.

I am like the Golum who's so attached to the RING that he just can't let go of it although he somewhere knows it's evil.

Ha, love the Golum analogy. That's true for those not yet awake, although they don't appreciate the "evil" component.

I think this gets into my way of seeing things as mere things and not MY things.

You are certainly getting better at this..
Let's go through these questions;
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

with love

vince

[mayank6576]

Hey Vince,
Hope you had a good Sunday !!

When you say "all I could do was notice.." i hope that you mean 'noticing happened' ? (which you did say a few lines above)

Agreed that noticing happened, but then who was aware that this noticing happened. Me having train of thoughts and noticing of that thought happens, but then again what notices the noticing. I feel like running around in circles...

In fact everything centers around stories. Is there anything that happens that doesn't start with a story?

I dont know, I am just confused vince, I experienced that the everything is happening on its own like walking talking eating watching etc and I have no control over it, and this everything is interpreted by the story as something else later (or adding a background to it). Here, by stories do you mean conditions that leads to that happening?. When recognising of the thoughts happens, is it because I have a new story which I formed when I read the exercise? I could say that everything is interrelated, something happens because of something that happened earlier.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No there's no self no Mayank no I no me present anywhere in any form or shape. This Mayank if you are referring to can only be experienced as thoughts.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

So far I've only been able to see the illusion of Mayank who is nothing but a bundle of thoughts and beliefs. Mayank can be experienced as thoughts arising continuously through stories which are dependent on past knowledge memories or expectations. The only difference now is that through noticing these thoughts Mayank can be understood a little better and stillness and quietness can be experienced with noticing. When noticing what new thoughts come into mind, theres absolute silence, everything stalls, theres nothing to see.

How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Past few days of enquiring thought patterns have been quite a steep learning curve about the character Mayank and what he's made of and what he likes and dislikes. The only difference I am certain of, is that these are just mere stories and thought trains arriving and leaving the station, I either board the train or let it pass. I still feel I am in the same position as before starting this dialogue, but with just a little more understanding of the working of my own mind.

What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

I have no answer to this question, I am not completely over it yet i guess, I am still looking. I am oscillating between state of clarity and confusion right now. If you thought that I had it, then could be I already lost it. I don't have the clarity to answer this question.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Decision intention and free will, choice control, all happen on their own. I have no control over what thoughts or actions I am going to have or perform next, they are all interlinked somehow, something happens because something happened earlier that is making this happening come to experience. Like right now I am typing on the keyboard because a while back ago I had a thought of replying to vince. Right now I can smell aroma of semolina pudding being made in the kitchen which is my favourite and I have thoughts of how It would look or how it would taste, should I leave this work and go take a look ( then thoughts about deciding should I go or not, which is more important, then thoughts of if its still cooking and on and on and on.... ). I am experiencing these onset of thoughts because I smelled something. but it wasn't me who decides which thoughts should come to mind or the one after it, its all unfolding on its own, I can just be a witness to it.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Lets see, as the part of exercise of recognition, the noticing of thought is happening, and it results in me being in one mind-state or other which ultimately results in me performing actions... what if I fell for a story and an undesirable action happened.. then noticing happens that 'okay something happened which shouldn't have' and I chuckle, but then who is responsible for that action? Does that mean I am responsible for everything OR nothing ?

Anything to add?

Maybe I understand everything extremely well on in intellectual level, maybe because I have read about this a lot. I know for sure how my thought patterns work and how this Mayank character is aliv.
Am I chasing my own tail with this? can I even understand this no-self conecpt ? there are lot of questions and they just wont evaporate like you said, So I guess I am not close to the gate ? Or is this just self-doubt again?
I cant see clearly.


Warm Regards,
Mayank

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Mayank,

Agreed that noticing happened, but then who was aware that this noticing happened.

Ah, this is the ultimate suck in.
It's language that insists on a subject and an object. Remember i mentioned that hypnotizing element of language.
Is it just another story that insists that there is a "who" that notices (or does anything for that matter)
If you do need a story (& remember it is just a story that might or might not be accurate) then the one about necessary conditions is a better one.
In fact, think about this. If you have conditions (circumstances) that are required for a happening, then what about the conditions required for each of those conditions to be present ?
Now we have conditions required for the conditions that are required for that happening. Then what about the conditions required for each of the conditions that were required for the conditions to be present for the happening?
...and back and back and back until we realize that for any happening then everything that has ever happened since the beginning of existence (& maybe before that) had to happen exactly as it did for our happening to be what it was.
If any one thing since forever were to be different, then our happening would also be different.
Can you grok this ?
So, who had the thought isn't even close to the right question. How (what conditions were present & required) it happened is one step better. ..but the really big leap is to be satisfied with the mystery of how and be joyful about the beauty of the happening. (joyful at the recognizing story, joyful at the opportunity to skip the unpleasant emotional response to the story, joyful at the alternatives that a calm mind reveals, etc)

I experienced that everything is happening on its own like walking talking eating watching etc

Yes, those happening seem to happen on their own, but they are preceded by a story. Walking is preceded by a story of going somewhere. Eating is preceded by a story of satisfying hunger, or a clock saying that it's time to eat, etc. Watching us usually a story that needs confirming.

Although these are the final confirmation questions, they are also good at showing me any areas that need more work.
Because you have come so far so fast, it is perfectly reasonable to have doubts. It also shows me that you have expectations that are (probably) fairy tale stories.
1. & 2.Your answer clearly shows that you can see the reality of thoughts and how that might seduce somebody into believing that they have a self that controls the show.
3

I still feel I am in the same position as before starting this dialogue,

. Really?
From what i have read, you have experienced some clarity and calmness that wasn't present before. Am i wrong?
4. Hmm, yes, we need to clarify the difference between sleepwalking and being awake.
Let's start this by you describing what it will be like to be awake. What are your expectations?
5a.

Decision intention and free will, choice control, all happen on their own. I have no control over what thoughts or actions I am going to have or perform next,

Well, you nailed this one.
5b.

but then who is responsible for that action? Does that mean I am responsible for everything OR nothing ?

Ha! Sucked in. (refer to my first response above)
..but yes, we didn't explore this one.
What is responsibility? Is it actually a thing? ..or is it a concept that a cult(ure) has turned into a rule ? (even with laws to enforce it)
While we are at it, what about morality? Is responsibility and morality the same in every culture? Is it the same as it was 200 years ago?

Am I chasing my own tail with this?

Yes

can I even understand this no-self conecpt ?

No. ..but at least you understand that it is a concept.

So I guess I am not close to the gate

Oh, you are. One foot through actually.

Or is this just self-doubt again?

Yes. ..and what are thoughts of doubt? Did you get sucked into the doubt story, or did you recognise it?

vince

[mayank6576]

Hey Vince,
Good Afternoon/Evening,

I saw your reply last night and I really took my time with this one.

From what i have read, you have experienced some clarity and calmness that wasn't present before. Am i wrong?
4. Hmm, yes, we need to clarify the difference between sleepwalking and being awake.
Let's start this by you describing what it will be like to be awake. What are your expectations?

Yes I do have moments of clarity and calmness but they are very short lived. I am overwhelmed by the story the very next moment. Please lets clarify the difference between sleepwalking and being awake. When I started this journey, i also started to read a lot of other posts about how it changed the way people look at things or objects, with a sort of detachment, that theres a flow to everything, life experiencing life and all sorts of explanations, and somewhere I want to be in that position of detachment too... Here's what I think I have observed: There are stories in the form of thoughts, this Mayank is also a bunch of stories, noticing the story makes everything calm for a second and immediately I get sucked in... some stories have toxic influence over Mayank and its hard to see them, but eventually although after long time noticing happens of these stories too... Also lately I am not able to celebrate recognition, recognition happens but then a fear or resistance in the form of thoughts is accompanied with it and I forget to laugh and dwell in something else entirely. Maybe I need a different perspective on it... I think being awake would be a state where I would be able to perceive the senses as what they are all the time or most of the time, and not what I want them to be. Guide me..
Something I did on my own: I closed my eyes and focused on what thought comes next, I am left with absolutely nothing, there's just breathing happening, sounds happening, then I have a weird tension in between my eyes.. it goes away as soon as I open them and then immediately everything that is being seen is judged, this is this, that is that ( labelling happens ) which is very difficult to disassociate from.
Also there's a chance people might consider me crazy if I randomly laugh at a thought in my head in front of them and they have no idea whats going on.. :)

What is responsibility? Is it actually a thing? or is it a concept that a cult(ure) has turned into a rule ? (even with laws to enforce it)
While we are at it, what about morality? Is responsibility and morality the same in every culture? Is it the same as it was 200 years ago?

Responsibility shows up in the form of a thought that wants to deal with the outcome of the process and wants to decide what should be done next, what is the right thing to do, or if I was supposed to do it this way or not... Say, I am responsible for my dog in terms of his health and well being, I am supposed to feed him and take her out on walks, play with her etc. What are these actions? What happens if I don't do them? Same goes with morality, it's always a thought that comes after the action that wants to decide if it was right or wrong. I do agree that they change with culture and time. How should we see them ?

Yes. ..and what are thoughts of doubt? Did you get sucked into the doubt story, or did you recognise it?

Yes thoughts of self-doubt and confusion, if I am just theorizing this.
At this point I just want to dig deeper..

Regards,
Mayank

[vinceschubert]

Good day Mayank,

Yes I do have moments of clarity and calmness but they are very short lived.

Yes, i would expect this. How many years of 100% immersive conditioning are we looking at dissolving?

I am overwhelmed by the story the very next moment.

Do you stay overwhelmed, or does a time come when you see what had happened? (& laugh)

Please lets clarify the difference between sleepwalking and being awake. When I started this journey, i also started to read a lot of other posts about how it changed the way people look at things or objects, with a sort of detachment, that theres a flow to everything, life experiencing life and all sorts of explanations, and somewhere I want to be in that position of detachment too...

Might it be that what you read was the upside of people's experience. i hate to burst your bubble, but nobody (except in spiritual fairy stories) lives 100% in the flow. Ha!, i am coming up to 10 years since awakening happened and i still occasionally 'lose it'. (for sometimes up to 10 minutes or so) Geez, i even remember an incident about 2 years ago, where my neighbor started yelling and abusing me about something that i was innocent for, and i lost it for several hours. Haha, it's a vivid memory/reminder.

Also lately I am not able to celebrate recognition, recognition happens but then a fear or resistance in the form of thoughts is accompanied with it and I forget to laugh and dwell in something else entirely.

Ah yes, a resistance to change. Yes, the organism has a whole basket full of techniques to make life easier. Homeostasis is one of these. Try to lose weight. Try to give up smoking. Everything works hard to maintain the status quo.
Once you learn to tie your shoelaces, do you need to consciously think about doing it, or can it happen automatically? Does doing up your shirt buttons take conscious awareness?
However much suffering is in your life now, it doesn't include the fear of the unknown. ...and we are heading into the unknown for Mayank. You will even find that your family and friends will reward you for staying the same and punish any behavior that they are not familiar with. But do understand that you needn't confront them with their sleepwalking. You will be more calm and relaxed and joyful, but in a non-confronting way.

Also there's a chance people might consider me crazy if I randomly laugh at a thought in my head in front of them and they have no idea whats going on.. :)

Ah, true. but we can be discreet about this too. Save the guffaw (rofl) for when yu are alone. In public a smile will still have the required release of hormones. You can even just smile with your eyes and have an affect. (try it now - just smile internally (focus on the eyes) and notice is a sensation occurs in the body)

Say, I am responsible for my dog in terms of his health and well being, I am supposed to feed him and take her out on walks, play with her etc. What are these actions? What happens if I don't do them?

What happens if you don't do them? Consequences.
Can you see that responsibility is a story about what you should do? If you don't do them then you are a bad person.
Consequences is about what needs to be done in order to avoid unwanted conditions.
One is to control behavior. The other just explains the effect of behavior.

morality, it's always a thought that comes after the action that wants to decide if it was right or wrong.

Exactly. ..and what is "right or wrong"? Is it different in different cultures? Was it always as it is now?

How should we see them ?

As culturally created stories.

Yes. ..and what are thoughts of doubt? Did you get sucked into the doubt story, or did you recognise it?

Yes thoughts of self-doubt and confusion,

You didn't answer the question. Did you recognize that you fell for the story of doubt?

Now, a story about two brothers. Twins. Both named Mayank. So we have Mayank 1 and Mayank 2.
Mayank 1 tends to look at the gloomier side of life, while Mayank 2 is the glass half full type of guy.
The same thing happens to both brothers, but Mayank 1 responds with "oh, i failed" and his body slumps and he gets flooded with stress hormones. "I'll never be any good at this." and he is so exhausted that he needs to sleep.
He dreams of a dark place where he is sick and there is no cure. He wakes up feeling terrible. Perfectly set up for failure on this day too.
His brother, Mayank 2, however responded to that same situation with "oh, i failed but then i saw that i did, and i even saw it a bit quicker than i did yesterday. Boy, i love the mental exercise that I'm getting as i practice this. I'm even less likely to get dementia when i am old because i am learning new things. Exercising my brain."
He goes to bed and dreams of soaring, flying, seeing new places and wakes all enthusiastic, looking forward to the challenges to come.
Which one will go on to be a healthy old man?
In six months i will be the age (74) that my father was when he died. i play golf 4 times a week with friends who have no idea about this stuff and expect to be doing it in 20 more years. ..and yes, i too had doubts when i first woke up.

with much love

vince

[mayank6576]

Good evening Vincent,

I dont know why I wrote Vincent above. It was automatic, Is Vince short for Vincent?
I have gone through your reply, will have to work late today and wont be able to reply to you tonight.
Will sure do tomorrow.

See you tomorrow Vince

Warm Regards,
Mayank

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mayank,

Is Vince short for Vincent?

Yes. The last time i was called Vincent was by my mother - before she passed 5 years ago.

See you tomorrow Vince

okay.
Can you create a story as to why i use lower case i and vince not Vince?

with love

vince

[mayank6576]

Good evening Vince,

How many years of 100% immersive conditioning are we looking at dissolving?

27 trips around the sun, of full immersive conditioning as long as I can remember.
When I look back I can see that some of the comment, or incidents in my childhood had so much impact on how this Mayank is today, or what he thinks of himself or others.

Do you stay overwhelmed, or does a time come when you see what had happened?

Well sometimes it takes really long, sometimes it is quick, or sometimes I don't even recognise that I have switched the story, but however long, there comes a time when noticing happens, but then I am so stressed out or lost that I forget to laugh.

Might it be that what you read was the upside of people's experience. i hate to burst your bubble, but nobody (except in spiritual fairy stories) lives 100% in the flow

I now know that's its no magical experience, no rainbows, no confettis will be around, atleast for me :) . Its just the beginning of it. The more I get to know myself (Mayank), the more I know my conditioning, the more free I get. There's always going to be thoughts, because maybe its the nature of the mind to analyse stuff and create stories about it, Now I don't even want to know how or why it does that, it just does. All I can do is witness and be at peace with it. These brief moments of peace are worth it.

Once you learn to tie your shoelaces, do you need to consciously think about doing it, or can it happen automatically? Does doing up your shirt buttons take conscious awareness?

Got it Vince. I know what you are trying to convey here. It's lifetime of conditioning, it's not going to disappear overnight.

You can even just smile with your eyes and have an affect. (try it now - just smile internally (focus on the eyes) and notice is a sensation occurs in the body)

When smiling internally focusing on the eyes really helps. Seems like more light is coming in, more information is being observed which was not before, more focus happens. Also when noticing of thought happens and I relax myself in the peaceful state with eyes closed, a wave of sensation flows thorough my body, almost like shivers, like a current flowing through my body. It's something.

What happens if you don't do them? Consequences.
Can you see that responsibility is a story about what you should do? If you don't do them then you are a bad person.
Consequences is about what needs to be done in order to avoid unwanted conditions.
One is to control behaviour. The other just explains the effect of behaviour.

Agreed, when I can't even control my own thoughts, my own body. There's no point in expecting outcomes out of something, it's pointless. When I was rereading our thread about the part when I talk about responsibilities about my dog, I noticed I referred to my dog sometimes as "his" and sometimes as "her", which just started a thought chain of How could I do it? How come I didn't notice this mistake? What was I thinking ? and then I chuckled ....and it didn't seem like a crime anymore, I was able to accept my mistake and I knew nothing could be done about it, no point in fretting about it.

Exactly. ..and what is "right or wrong"? Is it different in different cultures? Was it always as it is now?

Its absolutely different in different culture, if I would have been born in some other part of the world, I would have had a completely different outlook to everything, things concerning Mayank would have been different. Same goes with time as well.

You didn't answer the question. Did you recognize that you fell for the story of doubt?

I did later on. (After a long time)

The story was really inspiring. I took a few lessons from it.
I am just full of gratitude and appreciation for you Vince, you helping me out and others to see the illusion and come out of their own misery, its the most noble work I can imagine. On top of it you play golf 4 times a week and you are going to be 74 in six months. Lots of respect to you Vince.
I am sorry to hear about your mother.

okay.
Can you create a story as to why i use lower case i and vince not Vince?

Sure, More than one, its what I am good at :)
Maybe you dont want to emphasise on the notion of I and Vince
Maybe you dont even care if its upper case I of V
Maybe you like the title over the i
Maybe you like to write vince more that Vince .....
Could you tell me why you do so ?

Warm Regards
Mayank

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Mayank,

When I look back I can see that some of the comments or incidents in my childhood had so much impact on how this Mayank is today, or what he thinks of himself or others.

Yes, it is almost certain that past experience has played a major role in our current circumstances. ...but also our DNA, and our current conditions shape us greatly. It certainly can have a freeing influence on us to see how a particular incident or episode produced a current dis eased state, but that is not necessary for the dissolving of that state. If we embrace the mystery of the complexity of conditions that may have been involved, it frees us to be more completely synchronized with our present. We can let it go without even knowing about it.
You have experienced moments of calmness and clarity. They are the living of this.
It will enhance in an exponential way as you develop a story that is more adaptable to the flowing of life.
For me, that story was begun with 3 words that hit me like a brick. Those words arrived when i was told that "the mosquito bite of seeking will never heal while I keep scratching it."
With that, i realized that I identified as a seeker and that this identification was incompatible with being awake. I couldn't be a seeker and awake at the same time. ...but to drop seeking meant a total acceptance of what life was offering - in every moment. Those 3 words..
THIS IS IT!
Whatever THIS is, is exactly the way it is.
I didn't have to like it. THIS might be shitty feelings of doubt, of amazing feelings of love. Whatever it is THIS. IT.
Without fighting it, or wishing it to be different, or wishing the wonderful to continue, There was acceptance. A welcome surrender to anything that arrived. Ah, the bliss. Even in the midst of pain or suffering, to know that it was already here and quickly receding into the past. That it couldn't be changed as by the time i became aware of it that it was already a memory story, was/is incredibly freeing.

but then I am so stressed out or lost that I forget to laugh.

..and can you laugh at that when you recognize that you forgot?

The more I get to know myself (Mayank), the more I know my conditioning, the more free I get.

This is not a linear improvement. It is more like steps. There will be struggle struggle, then up to the next plateau, then glide glide and up to the next. Some will be long levels and small ups, and others will be short levels and big ups. The whole thing is a wonder full adventure. One that i suspect never ends.
i discovered that guiding is a great way to bring the next step closer.

There's always going to be thoughts, because maybe its the nature of the mind to analyse stuff and create stories about it, Now I don't even want to know how or why it does that, it just does. All I can do is witness and be at peace with it. These brief moments of peace are worth it.

Absolutely. (i love the way you expressed this) Yes it is the nature of mind. Because i am no longer a slave to the content of story, my thoughts and i have become friends. We don't fight. Really stupid things can whirl around in this mind and i can only helplessly laugh at them. (and watch them dissolve - or not.)

a wave of sensation flows thorough my body, almost like shivers, like a current flowing through my body. It's something.

Can you imagine the healing that this promotes?

and I knew nothing could be done about it, no point in fretting about it.

Boy, you are flying...

I am just full of gratitude and appreciation for you Vince,

..and i for you Mayank. i feel like i have made a friend for life. You have helped me to get back in touch with the wonder of waking up.
Oh, and while you are feeling gratitude and appreciation, i would like to invite you to (in time) pay it forward and with the help of a mentor, to become a guide here for the many seekers that knock at this door.
Of course this will bring up doubt stories for you, but... (you know what to do)

I am sorry to hear about your mother.

Why?

Maybe you dont want to emphasise on the notion of I and Vince

This is probably the closest. Capitals are used for proper nouns, and there aren't any here. Just abstract nouns.

Can you see that there is a whole book, with many chapters that describe Mayank. 27 years of constantly adding and refining details about this character.
Can you see that responding to what is written in this book is what creates the impression of an identity? That the shaping of experience is the result of conditioned reactions to these details?
Is it possible to rewrite this book with much more adaptable stories?
..and can we respond to those stories lightly? Not slavishly, but ever ready to improve on what is there?

great love and regards

vince