Ilona, are you available?

[Brian]

Hi Ilona,

No me. No entity. Not like before. Thoughts, including I thoughts that are seen for what they are as soon as they're looked at. I thoughts are still around, the mind stream continues exactly as before, but without identification with the I thoughts. Feelings, discomfort, disagreeable things needing to be done, but not happening to a me like before. Still no sense of clarity, there's muddledness, but no sense any of it belongs to anyone like before. That attachment to, belief in, a personal self is gone. Life, full of things that need to be taken care of, but less personal. It's all less intensely experienced than before or less hurtfully experienced than before.

"I" am not even rock solid sure of what I've just written, but something is different. There's disappointment because No-self doesn't feel a whole lot better than self. Better, yes, but not much better. And actually still some uncertainty as to "Did it happen? Has it happened? That fear sensation in solar plexus very present during all of this, but business concerns may be causing most of it. Although no sense of a personal "me" suffering it like before. That is different. I feel very unclear and muddled. I want to feel better

Brian

[Ilona]

Good work, but what is it that wants to feel better?
If there is no story about wanting to feel better, is there anything wrong with right now?
Is this incomplete in any way?

Trusting the process is the path of least resistance. Being open to whatever comes up and just noticing the tensions in in the body allows for the clearing be easy.

Tell me, what is not effortless?
Look close, spot the effort and see what mechanics are behind that.


Almost there, my friend. :)
Much love.

[Brian]

Hi Ilona,

Good work, but what is it that wants to feel better?

Certainly a sensation labeled anxiety, thoughts about a possible bad future probably stimulating the sensation
and labeling, and can there be "wanting" without belief in a "wanter"? Because there was wanting there.

If there is no story about wanting to feel better, is there anything wrong with right now?

Interesting, if there is no story about wanting to feel better, there is nothing wrong or right with right now,it just is.
(lol - if it means laugh out loud,I'm new to this stuff)

Is this incomplete in any way?

May be overreaching here, but pondering your questions, it's pretty easy from here to at least "imagine" that without the story, whatever is, is entirely complete and sufficient in itself. Nothing needs to be changed or made better. Judgements, desires, fears about what is - they are all thoughts, all labeling, their content is unreal. What is, simply is.

I am still noticing that nothing bugs me like it used to. Even supermarket lines! Certainly that should remove any doubts that a miracle has occurred!

Thank you for being right there,

Brian

[Ilona]

thank you for coming to chat. :)
so how is your day going? any noticeable interesting occurances that you would like to share?

can you examine the connection between thought and feeling, how one affects the other. how does story get created and what drives it.
just have a look and write what you see.


sending lots of love. :))

[Brian]

Hi Ilona,
Just entering the busy of my day, but wanted to say Hi. I've looked into effort from your prior post and will be as long-winded as usual.

Brian

[Ilona]

hi brian. write when you are ready. :)

[Brian]

Hi Ilona,

Wanted to reply first to your question about effort, that I missed from a couple of posts ago.

Tell me, what is not effortless?
Look close, spot the effort and see what mechanics are behind that.

i see that nothing is not effortless. Effort is a thought, judgment about mental of physical action. Effort is story. Activity just is.

You know Ilona, truthfully, I still feel I have a muddy brain. If you ask me directly, "Are you real? Is there a you?",
I have to say no, I can't find one, haven't been able to for a few days, yet there are persistent doubts - or actually thoughts of doubt - that stimulate sensations labeled doubt, or maybe it's the other way around. There is , and this is the best way I can explain it right now, some "thing" is not there, the "Brian" I came here to lose, is gone. "He" took everything so "personally" that it hurt a lot of the time. That is no longer. Life, in the world and in thought and emotion, happens just like it used to, but it doesn't hurt like it did. Upset is shorter and shallower, while lightness and joy are somewhat increased. That Brian that took all so personally, is no longer there. It is subtle, but real and is sustaining. So life is happening but not to that "me". It's easy here and now, communicating directly with you, to see this. But most of the time I seem to forget about it, and it seems as if "something"" is still experiencing it all, not old Bri, but something. Does this make any sense to you? It makes very little to me.

Ive been reading the conversations that resulted in liberation and I'm finding them really helpful. The experiences of some other folks seem very similar to mine, and at one point you described in detail how subtle it can be at the beginning, so much so that one could even be unsure anything had happened, I will keep doing that.

It's going on 1am here. I'm going to look into the connection between thought and feeling, how one affects the other. how does story get created and what drives it, and let you know later today, maybe tomorrow for you.

I think you must be just about finishing your first meeting. What an incredible idea. I hope it went well and I look forward to reading any and all posts on blogs about it.

Oh, and another thing I've been reading over and over in those liberation posts, is the deep gratitude people express to you. I have been feeling that since the first word of the first post. This is what I really wanted when I opened every gift I ever received, and here I am receiving it. Thank you so much,m Ilona. This is the best and most important work in the world.

LOL (lot's of love this time)

Brian

[Ilona]

Dear Brian,
Thank you for answer and sorry for delay. Yesterday's meeting was great, I read your message while on the train going to it and after the meeting I needed to rest. That was amazing experience to actualy see peoples eyes as they start seeing things as they are.

Anyway..
I see that the Brian that was in control is now somehow dropped. The experiencing is going on and life is as before- feelings, thoughts, doubts, happening.
What you do with thoughts is just notice them and they pass. No need to get into analysing and trying to understand what it means. They come and go effortlessly.

And feelings come to be felt. So feel them as they arise and look behind- what is there feeling them.

So it looks to me that you are ready for the final questions. Please answer when ready in full.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.  

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 


Looking forward to read your answers.
Lots of love to you.

[Brian]

Hi Ilona,

Sorry for the delay. but I haven't really known what to say. Feeling very fuzzy brained about this still.

I've been letting things settle for a couple of days. I still notice that I seem to experience life sort of one step removed, I don't feel as irritated by things. That hasn't changed. Other than that I notice no difference. I still talk to myself as if I were an I. I read over these posts and can't "get" the insight I had a few days ago that all this, life, events, feelings thoughts, didn't have to be happening to a "me".

First, to answer your question: "can you examine the connection between thought and feeling, how one affects the other. how does story get created and what drives it."

I don't know why I've had trouble looking at this but I have. Examining now, seems like thoughts can trigger emotions, and vice versa. All automatic. There is a prickly sensation in the chest quickly labeled ""apprehension", as it becomes more intense, the label changes to "dread". The sensation itself is mild compared to actual pain. This can trigger thoughts about future bad events that, if they happened, would justify, validate the fear. All of these thoughts are about potential damage or pain to an I. The thoughts trigger feelings trigger thougts that form a story. I think the story emerges to have the feelings make sense to "me"
I can see that while the sensation is real and the thoughts automatically stimulated by it are real, the content of the thoughts, the story is fictional, unreal.

I think what drives the story is the belief in the central character, the "I". The story points to past and I have feelings about the past, emotions about the past, judgements about that "me" past and present I. Or the story points to the future. again referring back to "me", validating the sense of a me.

Feelings and thoughts spinning a story to make sense of things for an I. All happening automatically without a thinker. The I is in the thoughts, nowhere else. The feelings add a sense of reality and believability to the story.

I can understand, prove to myself at any moment, that there is no thinker. But it doesn't stick. But I still "am" moment to moment as if I were an I, the thinker and feeler of "my" life.

Honestly, Ilona, I don't feel qualified to answer the final questions.

As for the first one:

"Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?"
"yes, still is", or "I'm not sure" both feel truer than "no".

I've waited to post for a couple of days hoping to see/feel things more clearly, but that hasn't happened

If seeing the unreality of me is irreversable, I don't think I've seen it. Like I fooled myself and my "insight" was just a deep intellectual appreciation of the concept of no-self, not seeing through the illusion. I still think, act and feel like "me".

[Ilona]

Thank you for honest answer.

I can understand, prove to myself at any moment, that there is no thinker. But it doesn't stick. But I still "am" moment to moment as if I were an I, the thinker and feeler of "my" life.

Seems that you expect something here. What is it? Can you look?
Nothing changes, amness, being are not going anywhere. Just the belief that there is a separate self drops.
You say that you don't react so personally to situations anymore- that is what happens, once illiusion is seen for what it is. An illusion.
Nothing gets destroyed, nothing dies and nothing changes. All is already as it always is. The main character in the story does not quit. And as you see the story keeps going on.
One difference- any time you check, you see- it's a story. Not reality. Until you don't need to check anymore. And all that goes on on automatic.

Does that make sense?

Much love.

[Brian]

Hi Ilona,

Seems that you expect something here. What is it? Can you look?

I think expectations have been playing a big role here, despite my having read in so many threads
and in Gateless Gatecrashers, about 1. how subtle the shift in perspective can be, and 2. how nothing changes.
I have been disappointed I know. Over 40 years of searching, and even in some of the results from this site, people
have seen problems drop away, and moodiness and fear dissolve into peace and so forth. I think I've been comparing where I am with the changes I expect to experience if I've actually "crossed the gate". I've been thinking "well, if I still feel this emotionally upset - if I still refer to myself as I, if I still talk to myself... then this couldn't be it, I can't be liberated - I'm fooling myself and I've even fooled Ilona." and on and on. Wow, that's the first time I've really followed that thought train through. It kept me from posting for a couple of days.

I also remember that when I seemed to get it - one thing that surprised me, was that nothing changed, nothing needed to change in either the world or my feeling/thinking experience, everything was and could go on exactly the same, just that no "I" was necessary in any way. Yet since then, I've been looking for changes to feel/be better and to prove to myself that I really had been liberated.

One difference- any time you check, you see- it's a story. Not reality. Until you don't need to check anymore. And all that goes on on automatic.

It does seem that when I notice I catch myself relating as an"I", it happens earlier, and I just drop doing it more easily. I've noticed that in the past few days the level of negative self chatter has been reduced in intensity as well as frequency. That may be true of all inner chatter as well, though I'm still not sure. Sometimes I think it takes longer to realize when something isn't there.

Another thing I've noticed (again very subtle and recent) is my response to certain songs. Certain songs used to make me feel a deep sadness, sort of a personal/lot of humankind sense. It was a good sadness in a way, and I admired those pieces of music for evoking that in me. Now though, they're just songs, they're sort of don't relate to "me" any more. Honestly, as if the "me" that had that deep well of personal and human sadness isn't there, doesn't exist anymore.

Your words about amness, the character in the story not quitting, are really well aimed and helpful - just what I need to hear next - as usual.

Thankful as always

Brian

[Ilona]

Hey Brian, thanks for the answer.

Seeing things as they are has nothing to do with feeling better. It's not a magic pill to fix something that is not working.

The magic pill is noticing what is obvious already. Then nothing needs to be fixed.
Can you see an absence of something, or you only see what is there.
You can be conscious and miss something that was taken away in the mind, but with senses you can only see what is.
Look at your table, then hide one object away. Can you see an absence of that object in reality?

So focus for a day on what you see. Notice what is.
Notice that what is real and what is imagined as in thoughts about stuff and how it is different.

Trust the process. And notice, that the shift is happening, the shift is process. Sometimes it is stubble sometimes it's instant, but what does it matter other people's experience? Everyone is unique expression. So when you find that you expect for something to happen, check closely, notice, what do you think is wrong with right now.

Sending love.

[Brian]

Hi Ilona,

Can you see an absence of something, or you only see what is there.
You can be conscious and miss something that was taken away in the mind, but with senses you can only see what is.

Yes. Exactly what's been happening to me is seeing what's there now the thought coming up to compare now with what was before and noticing the difference. Physical responses noted as being less than or smaller than before. All of that is thought triggered by (I guess) seeing "now"

So when you find that you expect for something to happen, check closely, notice, what do you think is wrong with right now.

Anything wrong or missing from right now is in thought and the labeled sensations. Sometimes "I" seem to get caught up in the content of thoughts and feelings rather than, as right now, seeing them as just part of the life that is going on automatically in the moment. From that perspective, reality, life happening right now, including all thoughts, desires that something be different, is complete and fine as it is. Events happen, thoughts, feelings are triggered automatically, with no I thinking them, just part of the flow of what's happening. Thoughts are real happenings, and all exactly the thing no matter what the content is. They're just part of what's going on. The content is always unreal, story. It may refer to something real or not. So a thought that "something needs to change, be better, is just a thought, just a part of the life that's happening, really no different from the thought "This is the best moment of my life." The content of thoughts/feelings contains or refers to an I, which is the only place there is an Thoughts/feelings themselves spontaneously occur, and there is no one they occur to.

This got clearer as I kept writing. (Just now the thought,"Yeah, but I wish it was this clear all the time" - now just recognized as a thought occurring, the I contained in it not real, the accompanying feeling, all just happening to no one - created by no one.

Ilona, here, I can see thoughts/feelings as spontaneous stuff that happens - to no one. Between posts, "I" seem to get sucked into and stuck the content - and this perspective is lost.

Thank You,

Brian

[Ilona]

as you noticed, writing is a brilliant tool to clarify what is going on. just write a lot, get it all out of your head in front of you, be it paper or monitor. this helps to put the thoughts in order and inspect closer what beliefs are still there.

so tell me what i I that is referred to in your posts?

Between posts, "I" seem to get sucked into and stuck the content - and this perspective is lost.

is this not just another thought appearing effortlessly out of habit? is it true, that this seeing is lost?
can you ever believe that there is this separate individual self that runs this body and the story?

if you leave the room with computer, does computer get's lost? you just don't focus on it. but you are sure, that it is still there whenever you want to come back to it. see the analogy?

life goes on outside the room with computer too. same life. just happening.
after a while, mind stabilises and does not need to check if self is there or not. this drops. but until then, trust the process.

much love.

[Brian]

Hi Ilona,

I typed what follows this preface in a word processor for the past hour or so, so as not to lose it if my connection went haywire or whatever, and again, there was a breakthrough in the writing of it, as all the breakthroughs "I"ve had in this process with you have occurred. The "I" I use is not a self. It's just convenient. The "I" you wanted me to look at

so tell me what i I that is referred to in your posts?

is not real and never was. It appears as content of thought, sometimes accompanied by sensation that, combined with memories of other I thought/sensation pairings, produces a "feeling" that "fleshes out" the illusion of a "personal self" (God, even now, it hits "me" the complete nuttiness of the idea!) Anyway, what follows is what led up to the kind of giddy certainty I have right now of the non-existence of "Brian" as anything other than the registered trademark of this body.

Hello Ilona,

Sorry for the delay.

I'd like to start with your question,

can you ever believe that there is this separate individual self that runs this body and the story?

I see "I" am not the thinker of the thoughts I'm aware of. I have no clue what the next thought will be. I understand that they're generated in the brain of this organism, but "my" only experience of it is that I have no clue and no way to understand where thoughts come from.

If I say that "I am the awareness that perceives the thoughts" which I once did, I see two things, 1. that "I" statement actually appears in awareness as a thought. It doesn't precede it. 2. And this is a just now observation, I'm struck by the absurdity of the concept that there could be an "I" that "has" this awareness. What a crazy idea! Awareness has an owner? Is it a thing? What is its nature? What could it be made of? Where could it be? Should "I" walk my awareness to the park like a pet dog so it can run around and play with the other awarenesses folks in my neighborhood have? It's laughable! A complete, total, madeup fiction.

Also the concept "my" body. What "has" this body? Where is this "have er"? Is it in the body? Where? What is this owner, possessor of "my" body constructed of? Tissue? Air? It sort of "feels" like it's there in the back of "my" head, or maybe even behind my head! Outside of me!Invisible, substanceless - and it "runs things" . God, really looking at this, its ludicrous. It could never be proven in any real way. There' nothing there to prove. It is not. "I" am not and never was.

There is no self, no separate "individual" that runs this body or anything else. There could never be. It makes no sense whatsoever. It's an idea, the content of a thought.

You know, Ilona, (I'm using I purely, purely for convenience) I've been looking at this question for the past few days from the viewpoint of "How could I make myself believe that there's an individual self running this body and mind?" The answer is I couldn't. No way. (There is some sudden sadness here, some sudden tears- I think I'm thinking of my 9 year old daughter. Kids are so open to accept information because they have nothing to compare it to.) We only believe this "self" goop because we're children at the time we learn it. Imagine trying to get an adult to believe in Santa Claus! How could you do it? It would be impossible to convince anyone who doesn't believe in a "self" that they "have" one, or really "are" one. The idea is past absurd. They would laugh in your face.

Ahhh. It's deeper. Still thoughts and senses of "me". Who cares?

You know Ilona, I got this image of a bowl of jello, when it's dumped out, the jello still has the shape of the container even though the container is gone. That's "me". The contents are still there in pretty much the shape of the container, doubt thoughts, "feelings" of a "me" thoughts of "forgetting" - but the container's gone, and it ain't coming back.

With tears of gratefulness (corny as that sounds writing this),

Brian