It seems close but yet so far

[Ronaldo]

Excellent.
What is a mind?

[Ronaldo]

And also,

Can you stop having thoughts?

Stopping thought implies control of them, which isn't possible.

That's rationalization, not looking.
Try to stop them, do the exercise, don't rationalize here, it will not help you.

[CuriousBeing]

That's rationalization, not looking.
Try to stop them, do the exercise, don't rationalize here, it will not help you.

Thoughts cannot be stopped.

What is a mind?

It's a thought.

[Ronaldo]

"Mind" is more like a concept, yes thoughts about thoughts... but does it exist?
Is there a place to be found where thoughts are selected and chosen?

How does it feel to realize that you have zero control over thoughts?

What about choice?
Apple or kiwi?
water or juice?

Try it, describe the process and what you find.

[CuriousBeing]

Is there a place to be found where thoughts are selected and chosen?

No.

How does it feel to realize that you have zero control over thoughts?

Doesn't feel much different. Definitely quieter than usual and opinions about things seem fake.

[CuriousBeing]

What about choice?
Apple or kiwi?
water or juice?

Try it, describe the process and what you find.

Thoughts come up. Juice sweeter and nicer. Water healthier than juice. Water over juice.

[Ronaldo]

That reply is not looking, there was zero investigation, you simply told me what thoughts came up, a dead end.

Actually put a glass of water and a glass of juice and do the experiment, which is chose? thinking about it is pointless.
What made the choice?
Who made the choice?
Do you always do what the thought says? (think about the last time you went to the gym or similar thing you should do but don't)


Let's try this:
1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
Is there a ‘I’ controlling which hand to raise?
Is there a controller? Where?

How is the decision made?
Is the decision made by an I/self?
Is there a decision maker? Where?

Repeat this many times before replying.

I really prefer that you take your time and answer with thoroughness, do you find this boring?

[CuriousBeing]

What made the choice?

Looking I see the choice simply being made. There is no chooser.

Who made the choice?

Nobody made the choice. Thoughts say I after doing.

Do you always do what the thought says? (think about the last time you went to the gym or similar thing you should do but don't)

No. If a thought came up saying drink bleach there is no action.

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

There is only choice.

Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

No I can't.

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?

No.

Is there a ‘I’ controlling which hand to raise?

No.

Is there a controller? Where?

A controller cannot be found. Only experience.

How is the decision made?

It just happens.

Is the decision made by an I/self?

No.

Is there a decision maker? Where?

I cannot find any decision maker.

Sorry if the answers seem simple but without thought there is no explanation. Everything just is and nobody is doing. Thought wants to explain it all and a sensation comes up which the mind labels as frustration but there is no doer in DE just doing.

[Ronaldo]

Hi Simon,

If a thought came up saying drink bleach there is no action.

Some formar US presidents disagree.


How you do the inquiry and how we communicate about it is very important for this to work.
Indeed, I would like your answers to come from experience, but don't ignore the thoughts, they are there as a real phenomenon, they are experienced, the story they tell however is not an experience becuase it's not real (e.g. the memory of yesterday's meal is here, the food isn't). That does not mean you can shove thoughts under the carpet, artificially ignore the them and even take them out of the process as another thought process! Clearly, if you just retroactively take out the thought from ANY experience it will have no quality and there is nothing you can say about it. So the subtlety here is that you notice the thought, you examine it, is it true? See it clearly rather than ignoring it.

When you observe for the first time things like that, if you really notice it experimentally, there has to be some mental reaction, all your life you thought that you think, and control and here is indisputable evidence that you are not, if you see this, you should be stunned or at surprised, if you're not you're likely just thinking about it. So please share anything so I know how to point you.

Here is a short video about choice and and thought https://youtu.be/V560v1eQJzA?t=60
it's pretty good.

Take a more complex case, you're out of food and the decision to go to the supermarket could arise before you go, but is it really a thought process "I'm out of food", then action followed? Only looking at this again and again in real time will reveal this. So this is something to really look at a lot, and there is plenty of opportunity to watch closely the relation between the thought and the action, are they linked in any way, and if so, how.

I hope this is clear?
Any doubts?


I'd like you to start noticing the body in action as part of your day.
taking a shower, are you moving the body, is there thoughts moving the hands?
walking
typing on the keyboard
doing the dishes

How are these moments occur, under what control?

regards
Ron

[CuriousBeing]

Sorry I didn't think that was part of it!
Let me try my experience into more words then. When looking I find no thing which I can point to and say "that's the doer" or "there's me". There isn't anything here except what's being done. The thoughts however do try to take credit by saying "I did that" and "clearly I chose to raise my hand" and there is a sense of doing but when looked at it's just thought and sensation. I may have seen this while reading gateless gatecrashers last week when I had DMed you so maybe that's why my reaction isn't that surprising or I really haven't "seen" it yet.

I feel like experientially I can see life just playing out but the sense of I and me are still strong and if I'm not actively looking I get sucked into it.

I'll look at that video and try your advice some more soon but I wanted to talk about it in case it leads to some more pointing for me!

Thanks
Simon

[CuriousBeing]

Hey Ron.

Saw the video and yes that is how it seems for me. Don't know if this should have led to some insight. Although I see there is no decision maker it still feels personal and that I'm in control.

[Ronaldo]

Hi Simon,

When looking I find no thing which I can point to and say "that's the doer" or "there's me". There isn't anything here except what's being done. The thoughts however do try to take credit by saying "I did that" and "clearly I chose to raise my hand" and there is a sense of doing but when looked at it's just thought and sensation.

Yes, that's a good description, and perhaps you've seen it before, although your first answers were not quite in line with that, so I don't know... No matter, you may notice that any realization you've ever had always occurs outside of thought - it's a real experience that brings up an emotion and there is a later thought integration, making sense (or trying to) out of that raw experience. This is where it can be tricky again, e.g. your expectations can delude that seeing into something mundane. Don't jump into rationalizing, let it be there, it will either come up on its own account or not, but you can't think yourself into a realization!

Glad you found the video of use.
Keep looking at experience.

For tomorrow I'd like you look through your day, and notice all the things you can notice that create that "me". I'll give you one example, but please make sure you experience these for yourself:
- looking at the cup, it seems to be outside of me, the center of vision.

Every thing that you can note, what makes you seem like a separate entity?
Pay close attention to the body.

Regards
Ron

[CuriousBeing]

Hey Ron,

Been trying the exercise however I find it difficult to follow. I'm looking and trying to find what separates me from experience and I feel this strong energy coming up like a buzzing which shocks my body but it feels like I need some more direction about what to be looking for. I feel like I'm doing it wrong.

I note the buzzing as just sensation and it's intensity lessens however it is still there somewhat and grows when I look.


Thanks,
Simon

[Ronaldo]

OK, no problem Simon.

Is there anything that needs your doing? Or everything is just happening?

What do you do in order to be?

What do you do in order to see?
What do you do in order to hear?
What do you do in order to feel?
What do you do in order to taste and smell?

What do you do for thoughts to be?

What do you do in order for the body to be?

Please investigate each questions thoroughly many times throughout the day.
I'd like to get answers to each showing an investigation, you need to really look at each item with lots of curiosity, it's nothing short of amazing so get it touch with it!
Let me know what you find.

P.S. if this "buzzing" continues, just sense it, try not to be following thoughts, let that sensation be there, feel it, but don't go into stories, move on to sense other areas (e.g. breath), it should drop.

cheers,
Ron

[CuriousBeing]

Hey Ron

Been doing the practice. Started with some boredom and frustration and now seems there is more openness and curiosity. I'm out on a walk and it felt like there was no one looking, just looking itself. Now I feel a bit detached. I believe this is just a state and it will pass but I have a question regarding the pointers. I am simply being in the present moment and "waiting". Is this what is required? Be still and know kind of situation, till the mind makes the realization? Thoughts come up saying "there must be more" and "you're missing something" but I am letting them be and just being.

As to your direct questions there is no doing or effort on my end. Seeing happens, thinking happens, the body moves, the mind thinks. It all simply happens. I think I need to just let this play out a bit and watch. What is your take on this?

Thank you
Simon