The Gate

Dear Ron,
O, no more Blue questions, but I would like still to chat with "you"
We are all one, don't we?
No words to thank you, for your guidance on this journey till his end, so let's silent do it instead of me.

Thank you for the advice regarding the sweet... But you know ... I will gonna eat it at the end anyway, so how many seconds I will stay just as an observer?
But I will do my best, from tomorrow of course.❤️️
(How do you found emoticons here>?<)

You said that "the choice is predetermined from your previous actions" It can seem that way, but clearly choice is made even when there is no previous pattern - lift a hand, who chose to lift the left or right? If this is not super clear, let's investigate!

This is really an excellent question: Who is making the choice if there is no "me"? Left or Right hand, how this is happening: first there is an impulse for it, then thought and then action, but from where the impulse is coming, is it the conciseness?

Finally, let's talk about love :)

Whatever is good for you, here or a new thread, you choose.
I would love to do it, who doesn't love to talk about love.
So many of us are searching for an answer to this question: what is real love looks like, why we so desperately are looking for a partner and love, or love and partner?
More to come -I love it!
Warmest regards
Rumiana

Dear Rumiana,
This thread will soon go into the Archive section of the forum, but we'll keep going (same link).

No words to thank you, for your guidance on this journey till his end,

Thank you so much for expressing this, and you are so welcome!

It's common to have some confusion coming back - it's just thoughts "trying" to make sense out of this new realization, this discovery that Rumiana is a fictional character. But thought can't make sense out of this.
Your thread was super fast so let's continue and make sure you're not only seen but also clear!

how many seconds I will stay just as an observer?
But I will do my best, from tomorrow of course.❤️️

Tomorrow is the most popular recipe for diets😝
Let's get back to this after we clear out a few important things that came up. We have time to look into all this.

first there is an impulse for it, then thought and then action, but from where the impulse is coming

Are you sure?
First, please watch yourself in the shower, you're performing complex tasks washing the body, the hair etc., and these tasks are not repetitive at all, they vary each time a bit.
Are you controlling these movements?
Do you find a thought before action?
How do you get out of bed? Do you find an intention, a thought and then action? Or getting out of bed just happens by itself, with thoughts sometimes claiming ownership "I had to get up for work"?


Next try this:
Put the palm of your hand facing up, and only curl (move) one finger each time (any finger), watch what is the difference of moving them with intention and then without intention, switch moving them with intention and without intention (but move them).
Do you find a real difference?
When you find yourself thinking about something else, and your fingers keep moving - does intention moves them, or they just move?
How is this intention controlled? Does intention affect action, or is that just something thought claims "I'm moving the 3rd finger now" but the movement just happens?

..is it the conciseness?

Conciseness is such a big thing in spiritual circles, books, videos.
But can you find something called conciseness? Isn't that another concept of thoughts, just like "I"?
Clearly there is "being conscious of", it's the same as saying "knowing of", or the experience of (red), but it's not a thing to be found.
Is consciousness (as a noun, a "thing") something you can find, or rather some logical conclusion?

More importantly,
Isn't the desire to find some higher entity to make sense of this, to give reason, purpose, just another attempt to find a self to cling to?.

With love,
Ron

Dear Ron,
Happy to have more talk to you and to find more clarity in these first steps, from the est of my new"old" life.

Are you controlling these movements?
Do you find a thought before action?
How do you get out of bed? Do you find an intention, a thought and then action? Or getting out of bed just happens by itself, with thoughts sometimes claiming ownership "I had to get up for work"?

No, I don't, control the movement, at least looks like no one owns the control! And yes, there is sometimes thought that is taking the ownership in a way.
For sure getting out of bed, not necessarily is happening within this order: first thought than action.

The example with the finger was very good!!!

Do you find a real difference?

No difference with or without intention, what's happening is absolutely the same experience!!!

How is this intention controlled? Does intention affect action, or is that just something thought claims "I'm moving the 3rd finger now" but the movement just happens?

You can act bough intentionally and not intentionally, here for me is more with or without awareness of it, but for sure that does not affect the action, it is just a thought that claims " I am doing it".
Because the intention is just another thought!

Is consciousness (as a noun, a "thing") something you can find, or rather some logical conclusion?

Like the transcendental Truth, the same with the consciousness-it is more like belief -it must be something.

Isn't the desire to find some higher entity to make sense of this, to give reason, purpose, just another attempt to find a self to cling to?

Yes, absolutely! "I"will meditate on it, but sound absolutely logical, because if there is something higher, that will make things so much easier in a sense.
I want to share about my walk today in the center of the city, "I " had that feeling like I am seeing the streets for the first time, all seemed to me so brand new. I was watching with someone else eyes.
It was so refreshing and nice!
Love,
Rumiana who is on a diet from tomorrow

Dear Rumiana,
Lovely! Especially the description of your walk around the city :)
Did you notice how our conversation flipped from what seemed like a struggle into this beautiful thing?

Let's take a look at the body, I'd like you to experience this with your next meditation.
So sit down for a while and sense "the body"..

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body (outside of the thoughts of a body)? Is there a body in experience?


I'm keeping a list of items I'd like to discuss with you, diet is coming in a bit, then love.

P.S. check if you have any PMs on the site from our admins, it tells you how to join the groups.

With love,
Ron

Dear Ron,
Thank you for your time and for opening such an interesting topic and questions.
I would like to investigate Body Questions via meditation a little bit more.
Yes,(I am a little bit confused about how to navigate in the forum), but I found the admin message and send a message to be added to the FB group, so nice!
So more from this investigation tomorrow, good night
Much love
Rumiana

Dear Rumiana,
No rush, we're now doing further investigation, you are welcome to set the pace, I'll be here.

Take care, hope to "meet" you soon.
with love
Ron

Dear Ron,
How are "you" that is not "you"?

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

All characteristics of the body, height, weight, tall, volume, shape can not be experienced in this empty space of being. No Shape, no form in the actual experience. No in, no out, but there is a sensation - the contact with the hard meditation cube, touching sensations of the fabric, so on.
Actually, no separation whats so ever between "you" as the experiencer of you and the environment, it is one, open vast space.
And today when I was exploring it, somehow, what I just knew intellectually, revealed to me - the phenomena(all around) is as empty as empty is this so-called Rumiana. I will have to look it further, it was small gleams.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?

No, if there is no entity, how you can find any boundaries? I am not experiencing such a thing as boundaries.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body (outside of the thoughts of a body)? Is there a body in experience?

The only experience that I can notice so far is this vastness, openness of beingness, with clarity, Body inexperience maybe is just a thought, at least it seems to me that way.
You have different sensations and the mind is labeling -pain, pleasure, etc.

Thank you Ron,
I am so happy to be able to share thoughts and crosscheck with you what is going on within this sort of mindfulness of the form meditation.
Keep looking,
Love Ru

Dear Rumiana,

Awakening seems to play by way of shifts followed by an integrations and embodiment. There is an experience that cannot be explained, followed by an interpretation of that experience and a settling in. I think it's important to have clarity after the shift as it is to have it. One easy trap is to fall into believing thoughts stories again to be real out of an old habit.

All characteristics of the body, height, weight, tall, volume, shape can not be experienced in this empty space of being. No Shape, no form in the actual experience. No in, no out, but there is a sensation

Right! The experience (the sensations, colors, smells, tastes, sounds) are there, but where is the body?
As for a "hard meditation cube" I hope it's a poetic metaphor because that is also not a real experience, it's a concept and a thought story.

Ron:
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?

Rumiana: No, if there is no entity, how you can find any boundaries?

That's an intellectual expiation, "if this, then that". The point here is to experience this and know, not to think about it and conclude. No matter how simple and trivial the question, always choose to have the experience otherwise you stay in story land - see that?

Ron: What is the ACTUAL experience of the body (outside of the thoughts of a body)? Is there a body in experience?

Rumiana: The only experience that I can notice so far is this vastness, openness of beingness, with clarity, Body in experience maybe is just a thought, at least it seems to me that way.
You have different sensations and the mind is labeling -pain, pleasure, etc.

The body is perhaps the most sticky part of the illusion of me. Isn't the body a concept in thoughts? Yes! Trust your experience but question the thought story. There is no real experience of a body! Thought content is NOT a real experience, thought content are pointers to something real, to other thoughts and to concepts, think of the word "sweet" which is a tag for a real experience, or "work" which is a concept.
Please make sure you experience this for yourself.


OK let's take another look at something fascinating - take your time with this.
Sit down for a bit and just watch the breath and let things quiet down a bit.
Identify a sound that is consistently there,
Identify a body sensation like maybe the hands, or the pressure from sitting.
open the eyes and find an object.
For a little while just see if you can drop the labels on each of these
- just feel sensations without tags,
- sound without interpretation ("it's a fridge humming").
- Can you look at the object and only see colors forming shapes without any meaning?
- Can you see how everything you look at becomes beautiful? (why is that?)


Now slowly start switching between these 3 items and notice:
- what happens to the image when you focus on the sound?
- can you focus on all of them at once?
- where does the knowing of the sensation (not the thought explanation - the recognition, the experience) is taking place?
- what about thoughts? Where do they appear?
- is there a location where this knowing appears?
- are there two? A sound and the knowing of the sound? Or is there just one, no gap, no distance between the sound and knowing of the sound? The sensation and knowing the sensation.
Is there anything at all outside of experiencing?

With love,
Ron

Dear Ron,
It has been a while till I find time to taste this 5 sense meditation, open up all senses and just be with the sensations coming.

Can you look at the object and only see colors forming shapes without any meaning?

Yes, this is not new, sometimes I am resting like this.

- Can you see how everything you look at becomes beautiful? (why is that?)

I couldn't get this, what is beautiful, then another thought again, but after a while, I ask myself, can you feel the beauty?
I will describe it more like this - everything is perfect, as it should be, just full, enough.

Now slowly start switching between these 3 items and notice:
- what happens to the image when you focus on the sound?
- can you focus on all of them at once?

If I focus on the sound, the image is still there, but at the same time is fading away. No, I can't focus on all items at once, it is very subtle, but my attention is going from one another sense object, can't be fixed at the 3 at the same time.
Why is it like this? What I can do is to drop all senses at the same time, but not vice versa.

- where does the knowing of the sensation (not the thought explanation - the recognition, the experience) is taking place?

This was hard to find, I could not say for sure, but seems to me like "nowhere" is more close to what I see.

- what about thoughts? Where do they appear?
- is there a location where this knowing appears?
- are there two? A sound and the knowing of the sound? Or is there just one, no gap, no distance between the sound and knowing of the sound? The sensation and knowing the sensation.
Is there anything at all outside of experiencing?

All is one, I could not separate them, all is happening at the same time, no gap between them, no separation. The experiencing, the experiencer, and the thing that you are experiencing are all one and the same thing.

Intellectually I knew that all that we can experience is only in our mind, but I couldn't digest it till now.
So much gratitude for this possibility to be able to see it.
I had doubts before, now I know.

Thank you Ron, as you are part of this seeing too
LOve Rumiana

Hi dear Rumiana,
Thank you for the kind words!

All is one, I could not separate them, all is happening at the same time, no gap between them, no separation. The experiencing, the experiencer, and the thing that you are experiencing are all one and the same thing.

Well done, the was the purpose of all the questions :)

Intellectually I knew that all that we can experience is only in our mind, but I couldn't digest it till now.
So much gratitude for this possibility to be able to see it.
I had doubts before, now I know.

Awesome!
Is there such a thing called "mind"? Of course we use it in expression, but is there a mind to be found?


Now let's go back and look at food. This is a grater topic, desire and aversion which is beyond the scope of LU, but I could point you in the right direction if you wish to investigate further (after we're done).

I suggest you pick a day, make a decision to not eat any chocolate (or sweets at all) on that day, you can do it! Don't do this looking for any purpose other than to look with curiosity at the desire, it's not for a purpose of diet.
You can investigate a much deeper question here (if you like) and look at what it is that is wrong with the current moment?
What is it that is solved when you have food in your mouth?
What are you running away from?
But don't tell me because this is a bigger inquiry that I can't go into here, but do your own inquiry and you may find some very very deep emotions.

So with that decision (no sweets today), you will at some point feel an urge to get it, hopefully you'll remember that it's your day off and not just get some on autopilot.

Typically when you try to diet, you use diversion tactics, right? You try to avoid thinking about it, avoid exposure to the food, avoid avoid avoid! Not here, here you are going to look at it and not run away!

OK, so now that you have the urge, get that food item and look at it, but you are NOT eating it today!
So here you are so close to it, you could just eat that chocolate, and find a sensation in the body when you keep depriving yourself. Do new thought stories arise? Watch... don't eat it, it's not going to kill you, I promise 😉.
What happens if you don't run away from the sensation but allow it to be?


With love
Ron

Hi Ron,
We haven't talked for a while.

Is there such a thing called "mind"? Of course, we use it in expression, but is there a mind to be found?

Very interesting question indeed, who is thinking -what is the 6th conciseness, you are talking to so-called label Buddhist here, we are milked with this terminology otherwise from where all words are pouring in this communication.
To whom I am talking to right now, as everything is happening just in my dream.
Mind -If you search you will not find it, as no matter that we have seen that identity, Ego does not exist, still we are in a dream, in the world of relative truth, conditioned conciseness.

Test with the sweet worked: I succeed for one day, but did not succeed to dissolve the desire.
You know, I know that urge for sweetness is emotional dissatisfaction when you crave love, usually, you end up eating chocolate or cake, and opposite when you are happily in love and you are receiving actual energy of love, you forget about it...
Intellectually all is clear, that I am feeding emotional hunger, but that doesn't help too much...
That habitual pattern is strong...

Let's talk about Love, if I do not exist, and if I am you and you are me, and we all are one then, why people fall in love? Who they really love -maybe these are Ego games?

Love
Hungry for change-Rumiana

Hi Rumiana,
Yes, long time 😁

Test with the sweet worked: I succeed for one day, but did not succeed to dissolve the desire.

If that was so easy! You didn't share the details of how it went, but did the intensity of wanting drop when you were looking at the item, letting the sensation be there, not running away from it? I quit smoking 20 years ago doing just that, long before I knew about self and no self. Not running away from the craving, but facing it, is powerful.


Like I said, we can't get into desire and aversion here, it's a big topic.

Let's talk about Love, if I do not exist, and if I am you and you are me, and we all are one the
n, why people fall in love? Who they really love -maybe these are Ego games?

You are not far from the truth, the word love refers to very different things. If you recall how you felt when the self was seen as an illusion, tears and joy, crying and laughing... that was love, a recognition that all is one, if you like, that everything is you, that you are everything. This is not a personal you, there is no personal you, just the whole of experience. Love can also arise when you look at another human and recognize sameness.

But what we often call (romantic) love takes on a very different meaning, it really means "love me", "need me", "provide me", "complete me". As long as you seek completeness or approval in someone else, that's not love, it can seem that why for a while, while they seem to satisfy that need, the promise is there.

What is behind the seeking of approval, and ultimately love?
What is hiding under the need to be liked or loved or appreciated? It's similar at work, with friends and even with strangers.
Is it actually what they think about you that makes you suffer, that is the problem? Or is it what YOU think that THEY think about you which is the problem?

When it is a problem isn't the cause how you are reflecting your own beliefs about yourself on other people?
Are you not taking everything they do or say and transforming it into your view of what they say and do?
Could these be beliefs you have about yourself, beliefs you don't want anyone to ever know?

Have you heard of Byron Katie? That is perhaps the best next step to take now to figure out where the beliefs that cause you suffering are hiding. She has a lot of free stuff and some books.

I hope you find the above useful, I feel like this thread is complete for what we do in LU . You know how to reach me if you have any questions, or if you'd like to share anything, and you're most welcome to!

Again, it has been a pleasure guiding, chatting and getting to know you a little.

With love,
Ron

Dear Ron,
Thank you, yes, it was not that easy, I didn't face it really, I was more like avoiding it, to be honest, but I will do it again.
Yes, in a while desire is gone, I have done it with different topics, true it works!
Thank you for your wise guidance, how you know what questions to put, from where all this wisdom is pouring?
Really?
Who I am talking to?
Yes, I know where to find you, thank you for inviting me into your world to talk more, I will be glad too.

Last questions: hmmm, absolutely we have no strength to face it, our own beliefs for ourselves, and through the others, we can see them, they are like a mirror to us.

Thank you for giving me so much, unspeakable!

You were right, all these about love, that I use to search, was romantic understanding about love.
When you are self-enough, self-sufficient, self-complete ( when the self does not exist in reality) when you are all, what you can search in a partner, except just to give love, to be there if need it.

Тhanks for this revelation, it was a wonderful journey, up to new meetings Ron
Love Roumiana that is not searching anymore