Looking for Guidance

[LosingIt]

Is the story of Paul a series of thoughts (words/images) or is it something that can be experienced directly in the experience of your physical senses?

I think I see where you're going with this...No, I don't see how the story of Paul can be experienced in my physical senses, he is only experienced in the realm of words/images/thoughts.

If you look at any object in your vicinity, and spend some time exploring the actual sense of what is seen i.e. an image, can you find an observer seperate to what is being seen or is there simply images present?

Well, there is simply an image present...In this instance, a ballpoint pen. But my mind wants to barge in and talk to me about all of the associations about "pen": writing, penmanship, different types of pens, me learning to write, signing contracts, etc. And then associate them with my story. Which seems to create this feeling of observer and observed, and statements like "paul is holding this pen with his left hand" and "paul writes notes with a ballpoint pen".

Do you make seeing happen in any way or is seeing just present? Is there any sense of being seperate from what is seen?

Seeing seems to just happen, I have no need to will seeing/sight to happen. Again, I think the separation barges in when I relate the things being seen to associations with my story, and I continue with what seems to be a near perpetual internal monologue on my part. I see something, I make associations, I add to Paul's story. I create/see separation.

[amrita]

Hi,

I think I see where you're going with this...No, I don't see how the story of Paul can be experienced in my physical senses, he is only experienced in the realm of words/images/thoughts.

I'm glad you can see where we are going with this :).

In terms of experience we can only ever experience the ever-changing now through our physical senses. Is this something you can agree with? Does the past exist (outside of special types of thoughts that we call memories)? Does the future exist?

When you say Paul is only experienced in the real of words/images/thoughts is Paul the actual thoughts themselves or is he the witness or observer of those thoughts?

For example, is the thought "I am Paul" actually Paul or is he the observer of the the thought?

Amrita x

[LosingIt]

In terms of experience we can only ever experience the ever-changing now through our physical senses. Is this something you can agree with? Does the past exist (outside of special types of thoughts that we call memories)? Does the future exist?

I am very familiar with the concept of the perpetual present. The "past" occurs only in the present in my thoughts/images/memories of the past. The "future" is only a mental construction of images/thoughts that we conjur up in the present. So neither the past nor the future actually exist, there is only this present moment and "we can only experience the ever-changing now through our physical senses".

When you say Paul is only experienced in the real of words/images/thoughts is Paul the actual thoughts themselves or is he the witness or observer of those thoughts?

For example, is the thought "I am Paul" actually Paul or is he the observer of the the thought?

I think you mean "realm" instead of "real". Okay, so I would say that Paul/I am the observer/witness of the thoughts. The thought "I am Paul" is a thought that "I" am observing and this thought/observation is not actually "Paul". The actual Paul would be the observer of the thought "I am Paul".

[amrita]

Hi,

When you say,

The thought "I am Paul" is a thought that "I" am observing and this thought/observation is not actually "Paul". The actual Paul would be the observer of the thought "I am Paul".

What is is about the thought "I am Paul" that makes it more believable than the thought "I am not Paul"?

What is it that gives the observer/witness a sense of "me-ness" or "I-ness"?

love

Amrita

[LosingIt]

What is is about the thought "I am Paul" that makes it more believable than the thought "I am not Paul"?

I feel that I have some continuity with the concept of "Paul", with this body that has been named "Paul", with memories of Paul, with people I know that call me "Paul" and share with me the (somewhat) overlapping memories of "Paul". To me the concept of "Paul" represents my brain/body and it's relationship to the rest of the world/universe. So the "I am Paul" statement is more affirming of this story and my relationships with other people and the world up until now. Stating "I am not Paul" would be a negation of the story about Paul that I tell myself and the negation of the story that is (somewhat) confirmed and refined by my relationships with other people.

What is it that gives the observer/witness a sense of "me-ness" or "I-ness"?

Again, I would say it's the continuity of my memories, the continuity of the story of Paul, and the "confirmation" of me as "Paul" by my friends and associates. Maybe there is also this continual sense that there is this pilot, "me", that is behind my eyes looking out into the world, and taking in much of my experience/environment through the eyes, ears, nose, mouth. All of this sensory input from the environment seems to coalesce behind my eyes and between my ears. And somewhere behind the eyes and nose, and between the ears is the witness/observer/me/Paul/the conscious one. I feel like I'm taking it all in, making judgements, and making decisions based on the input.

[amrita]

When you say

I feel that I have some continuity with the concept of "Paul", with this body that has been named "Paul", with memories of Paul, with people I know that call me "Paul" and share with me the (somewhat) overlapping memories of "Paul".

Is it more the case that there is a "belief" or "assumption" that there is a seperate entity called Paul that is superimposed onto the raw experience of life?

Because everyone you know believes something does that necessarily make it true?

As has been said many times, this inquiry is about exploring what is actually going on in your direct experience (DE) rather than beliefs about what is going on if that makes sense. of course I am aware that we are using language/concepts as pointers to what lies beyond language and thought. I am sure you know the parable of the buddha pointing at the moon and saying to look at the moon not the finger (of concepts and language).

In direct experience (DE) can anything resembling "Paul" be found except in thoughts of "Paul"

If for some reason your thoughts and memories of Paul were erased would "Paul" exist?

Maybe there is also this continual sense that there is this pilot, "me", that is behind my eyes looking out into the world,

If you relax, close your eyes and "look" at your DE can you find this pilot? If so, what does it feel like? Does it have a certain shape, size, colour?

[LosingIt]

Is it more the case that there is a "belief" or "assumption" that there is a seperate entity called Paul that is superimposed onto the raw experience of life?

Yes, probably. It's just an assumption that is so hard to overcome.

Because everyone you know believes something does that necessarily make it true?

Of course not, and I do understand this intellectually. I just feel that I have been brainwashed (to believe that my ego exists) Even though I'm aware that I've been brainwashed,it's difficult to overcome the programming.

As has been said many times, this inquiry is about exploring what is actually going on in your direct experience (DE) rather than beliefs about what is going on if that makes sense. of course I am aware that we are using language/concepts as pointers to what lies beyond language and thought. I am sure you know the parable of the buddha pointing at the moon and saying to look at the moon not the finger (of concepts and language).

Yes, and I understand the Korzybski "The word is not the thing" and Alan Watts, "The menu is not the meal"

In direct experience (DE) can anything resembling "Paul" be found except in thoughts of "Paul"

This is hard to say. If I delve into it deeply, of course the word "Paul" is just a signifier. I can say the word "Paul" is just a signifier, like the Buddha's finger. But is there no unifying essence of "Paul" the corporeal being? This grouping of cells, this brain, this nervous system, this aggregation of unique DNA? Of course the word "Paul" is just a word. You could write it on a piece of paper, crumple it up, and nothing bad would happen to my body/nervous system. But if I divorced myself from the concept of having a name, if you called me ______, wouldn't I still be some-body, somehow at least somewhat separate? I think if you challenged me more about my responses here, it may be helpful. I feel I don't so much cling to the name "Paul" anymore, but maybe I cling to my body/brain. Sorry, I'm frustrated here.

If you relax, close your eyes and "look" at your DE can you find this pilot? If so, what does it feel like? Does it have a certain shape, size, colour?

I cannot find the pilot when I am in DE mode. It's just so hard to maintain this mode for more than 3-5 seconds before thoughts, judgements, worries, images, abstractions move in. I have been practicing and trying to bring more awareness of DE, both during my formal sitting meditation, and also at certain points during the day, and especially when I go for walks in nature. There are moments when I am able to stop thought and see nature, and I see nature in a non cognitive way, and things look more "new" to me, because I'm not assuming anything about them. I'm not assuming "That's a tree" or "that's a flower" or "that's a bird", and it's wonderful, and feels a bit childlike. But again, it doesn't last long before I'm back in my head. I really feel I get DE. I just feel that I'm so cerebral that it's extra difficult for me to sustain thoughtless DE for any real length of time.

I do feel I'm close to a breakthrough. I hope I'm not frustrating you. I do feel that my ego wants to maintain it's alleged continuity. I will continue to think about your questions and do your exercises in earnest. I'm trying to answer your questions as honestly as possible. Thank you for all of your pointing/coaching so far.

I'm going for another nature walk tomorrow, and I plan on meditating in nature and really focussing on DE.

[amrita]

Hi Paul,

Please don't worry about frustrating me. There is no pressure or rush and we can take as long as we need to or as long as you are prepared to keep looking. One thing I pick up from your last answer is that maybe you are trying to hard - the looking should be gentle and kind and not forced, more an expression of genuine curiosity rather than an effort of will if that makes sense.

When you say,

I cannot find the pilot when I am in DE mode. It's just so hard to maintain this mode for more than 3-5 seconds before thoughts, judgements, worries, images, abstractions move in.

What is about the thoughts that pull you out of DE? Is it possible to dis-identify from the content of the thought and simply be aware that a thought is taking place?

Maybe as a start just try counting how many thoughts arise in the space of a minute. Try not to get caught up in the content of the thought and simply note that there a thought, oh look there's another one. A classiic metaphor is that thoughts are like clouds blowing across the sky - the unbound field of awareness so we are aware that thoughts are occurring but not getting caught up or identified in the contents of the thought.

[LosingIt]

Please don't worry about frustrating me. There is no pressure or rush and we can take as long as we need to or as long as you are prepared to keep looking. One thing I pick up from your last answer is that maybe you are trying to hard - the looking should be gentle and kind and not forced, more an expression of genuine curiosity rather than an effort of will if that makes sense.

This makes sense, and you are probably correct in your assessment. I tend to be type "A". I'll try to put less pressure on myself and try to focus on curiosity rather than will. Thank you for your patience and willingness to continue working with me.

What is about the thoughts that pull you out of DE? Is it possible to dis-identify from the content of the thought and simply be aware that a thought is taking place?

Maybe as a start just try counting how many thoughts arise in the space of a minute. Try not to get caught up in the content of the thought and simply note that there a thought, oh look there's another one. A classiic metaphor is that thoughts are like clouds blowing across the sky - the unbound field of awareness so we are aware that thoughts are occurring but not getting caught up or identified in the contents of the thought.

I have tried the cloud metaphor before, but I like your idea of counting the thoughts that arise, which helps get me in the "oh, there's another one" space "here's the second one" and so on. I meditated for 20 minutes, and only counted 20 thoughts, and I feel that this method is very helpful. I feel that there is a greater space between the thoughts and less identification with them. I have a longer meditation planned for tomorrow morning and will try this counting method again.

Thank you!

[amrita]

Hey that sounds good,

When you say

I meditated for 20 minutes, and only counted 20 thoughts, and I feel that this method is very helpful. I feel that there is a greater space between the thoughts and less identification with them

Is there any sense of "Paul" or "I" or "me-ness" in the space between thoughts arising?

Do you make the thoughts happen or do they simply arise?

Is there any way of predicting what the next thought will be?

Another tip is if you catch yourself in a train of thought/fantasy just simply note "thinking is occurring" and come back into the present DE. Perhaps it may be useful to reflect on what feels more real DE or thinking about experience.

Amrita

[LosingIt]

First off, regarding my last post, I have to say that 20 "thoughts' is maybe low. I'd say I had 20, well-formed thoughts. It seems like many of the thoughts that do arise are a little less defined when I'm in more of a DE state.

Is there any sense of "Paul" or "I" or "me-ness" in the space between thoughts arising?

Good question. I just got done with a 30-minute meditation. I felt I was able to get into more DE as the session progressed. It was interesting. I was in my office/meditation room and I heard the sound of a fan in the attic running, birds outside my window, and a little traffic. I had my eyes closed and saw darkness, shadows and some amorphous, dim lights. I counted the thoughts as they arose. I'm going to refrain from telling you how many (because I feel I turn it into a competition and I'll start trying to will stuff, and in your previous instructions you had mentioned not trying to will it too hard). I found that as the session advanced well-formed thoughts arose less and I felt more in tune with my body tensions, and those tensions decreased over time. The thoughts that arose the most were thoughts of me explaining to you my meditation experience. It was me trying to make sure I remembered events of the session and would be able to relay them to you properly.

So now I will answer your question: I guess I still see "myself/Paul" as the observer of the "no thought"/body tension/nameless sounds. Even when my consciousness is devoid of thought there seems to still be this locus of awareness that I call "me". I could use another language or not call it a different name, but there is this feeling of someone/the observer.

Do you make the thoughts happen or do they simply arise?

Well, they seem to simply arise. Could I will them? Could I say at 10pm today I will think of a blue cat, and set my alarm, and then concentrate on the imagery and thoughts of a blue cat? Yes? But the thought of "I will think of a blue cat at 10pm today" simply arose in the present. How could I plan it out and make this specific thought arise? There is no way to predict it. You could only "plan" it in the present moment, set a timer for a time to think about it, then think about it further at the time desired. But the "plan" would just arise in the present moment.

Another tip is if you catch yourself in a train of thought/fantasy just simply note "thinking is occurring" and come back into the present DE. Perhaps it may be useful to reflect on what feels more real DE or thinking about experience.

I will give this a try moving forward, and I can report back.

[LosingIt]

Another tip is if you catch yourself in a train of thought/fantasy just simply note "thinking is occurring" and come back into the present DE. Perhaps it may be useful to reflect on what feels more real DE or thinking about experience.

Me:
I will give this a try moving forward, and I can report back

I had a profound meditation today for 40 minutes. Maybe the deepest meditation I've had. I got very into DE with my eyes closed. Just feeling what I felt in my body and seeing what was behind my eyelids. And hearing what was being heard. When thoughts arose, they were declard thoughts, and soon they dissipated. There were long moments were it seemed that the "I" had disappeared and thoughts had disappeared, or at least faded.

For the last 5 minutes or so, I had my eyes open, and I stared at a pattern on a cloth. It was just a pattern, and for the most part I didn't say the word "flower" to myself, but that was what the pattern was of.

So, after I got up from meditation. I would say, yes, my judgements and my verbalizations came back. But maybe I feel a little bit more of a distance from them. At least for the next 15 minutes.

Now, hours later, I feel like my ego is back. "I" am typing this. And who is this "I"/experiencer? It feels like a "controller" inside my head, behind my eyes and between my ears.

I think something that really reminds me of my ego is my irritations. Without going into them, there are things that irritate me. And when these things happen, I think Paul really comes into my awareness. "I am Paul and of course I am irritated by X. I've always been irritated by X. I am a person that gets irritated when X happens.

Maybe I'll try to say "thinking is occurring" in more of my non-meditational life. When I'm just daydreaming during the course of a day. Or worrying about something.

Paul

[amrita]

Hi,

When you say

So now I will answer your question: I guess I still see "myself/Paul" as the observer of the "no thought"/body tension/nameless sounds. Even when my consciousness is devoid of thought there seems to still be this locus of awareness that I call "me". I could use another language or not call it a different name, but there is this feeling of someone/the observer.

and

Now, hours later, I feel like my ego is back. "I" am typing this. And who is this "I"/experiencer? It feels like a "controller" inside my head, behind my eyes and between my ears.

can you find this "locus of awareness" or "ego" in DE? If so, can you describe it? How do you know it's there? Is it a sensation? Is it a thought or image? Or is more of a belief that something *should* be there? Is it possible to experience life without identifying to a "me" or "I" and simply experiencing DE?

In DE is there any sign of an "I" or an "ego" at the centre of experience or is there simply experience (sensations. images, thoughts)? Do you own or control what is going on in your DE or is the experience simply occurring?

And lastly, a few more questions/pointers about thoughts.

Can you control thought at all? Can you make a thought appear and disappear? Can you stop thinking "negative" thoughts and only have "good" thoughts? Why are some thoughts more believable than others?

[LosingIt]

can you find this "locus of awareness" or "ego" in DE? If so, can you describe it? How do you know it's there? Is it a sensation? Is it a thought or image? Or is more of a belief that something *should* be there? Is it possible to experience life without identifying to a "me" or "I" and simply experiencing DE?

Hmmmm.. I don't know. You may be correct that it is more of a belief that something "should" be there. Maybe it feels like there is some "will" towards a conscious attention on something: a sound, a sight. Like there is a will that chooses what to pay attention to. It is probably random though...

In DE is there any sign of an "I" or an "ego" at the centre of experience or is there simply experience (sensations. images, thoughts)? Do you own or control what is going on in your DE or is the experience simply occurring?

I guess the experience is simply occurring. But there is this "I" phenomenon that keeps barging in and wants to own it. I don't think that I own anything.

Can you control thought at all?

Such a difficult question. I want to believe that I control my thoughts. But, I don't know what I will be thinking about 15 minutes from now. As alluded to in a previous answer, I could set an alarm on my phone for 15 minutes from now that says "Think of a green chihuahua" and when it goes off, and I see the phrase ""Think of a green chihuahua" I will think of a green chihuahua. But the idea of ""Think of a green chihuahua" occurred randomly in some past present moment. I had no control over it. I could have just as easily set my alarm to say "Think of a red labrador".

Can you make a thought appear and disappear?

I feel like when I'm in meditation and an abstract thought arises, and I say to myself "thought occurring" that this somehow wills the thought to go away. Because I'm no longer focussing on it and giving that thought energy/focus/resistance.

Can you stop thinking "negative" thoughts and only have "good" thoughts?

No, definitely not. Both negative and good/positive thoughts arise in my conscious awareness. I feel though, that if I make some willful decision to "be more positive" that more positive thoughts tend to arise. Who is making the decision to be more positive? I don't know. And the words "positive" and "negative" are relative opinions.

Why are some thoughts more believable than others?

The empiricist in me wants to say, "because certain things are proven. Like water, at sea level, boils at 212 degrees fahrenheit". This is testable and repeatable. The realist wants to say that nothing is certain, because everything is relative and approximate.

[amrita]

Hi,

When you say...

Maybe it feels like there is some "will" towards a conscious attention on something: a sound, a sight. Like there is a will that chooses what to pay attention to. It is probably random though...

Do you mean you "feel" something is there that makes choices which you identify with as you, a self or an "I"? if so, can you find a location for this "something" in DE? Again, how do you know its there or is a belief that something *should* be there. Please take your time to explore your DE in meditation and in your normal life looking for any sign (however subtle) that there is a sense of self that can make choices.

Is it the case that in DE choices, thoughts simply arise without a self needed to generate or create them and we later invent a story that there is a self, I, me that is in control that we become strongly identified with. However, when we start looking we cannot find this self anywhere. This inquiry is about looking into DE and seeing, really seeing there is no self, I, person anywhere to be found and consequently stopping believing in the story, like one day waking up and no longer believing in Santa!

So the work is to keep looking/exploring DE as much as you can for any subtle signs of this self (eg a tension, contraction, set of sensations/thoughts) and look at it and see if "you" exist in these sensations or thoughts.

Meanwhile, here is an exercise to explore the idea of thought causing an action.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk and report back when you ready.



Amrita