Conceptual Understanding vs Experiential Knowing

[warissem]

Hi pockets

I recommend for you two videos, I wish they will be of some help.

https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c

https://youtu.be/WNiZiCwcBZU

Warissem

[pockets]

Hi Warissem,

Thanks for your patience with me. I have watched both videos a couple times. I hadn't heard the description of needing honesty, and it did make me witness the emotion of "feeling defensive", but I was very aware of the feeling, which is not something I am always used to.

As mentioned in the video, my conceptual understanding and trust has come from so many descriptions from people that just make sense and feel right. I think I have the desire, and I want the desire, but the fire that Lisa expressed in the second video sounds more powerful than I can honestly claim, which then lead me to witnessing feelings of fear of not being able to be honest and open enough to see through "myself".

My observations of thoughts feel hazy and not precise. They don't feel crisp and obvious like my sense of touch or taste.

[warissem]

Hi pockets

There is an exercise for you :

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.

Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "insert name" is located.
Touch the exact location of Pockets (your name).

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel "Pockets" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Pockets” (If any).

Tell me what you experienced and found, by the way of direct experience.

Warissem

[pockets]

Hi Warissem, thanks for the exercises.

Were you able to find and feel "Pockets" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?

Couldn't feel what was aware of other sensations in the same way I could feel sensations themselves.

Where is it?

It didn't feel anywhere particularly. The closest i could describe is behind/within, but not as a single point, but as spaciousness. But it doesn't feel separate from the sensations.

What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?

No, a spaciousness/separation, but not any/thing, but not nothing.

What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Pockets” (If any).

There were no body sensations that were me. Almost feels like i am whats "behind" all the sensations. When I touched my face i did not feel "behind them" in the directional sense, but behind them in a observational sense, like they were on a screen.

These feel clear at times and hazy at others.

[warissem]

Hi pockets

Thanks for your answer, I will come later to you.

Warissem

[warissem]

Hi pockets

Couldn't feel what was aware of other sensations in the same way I could feel sensations themselves.

Sure, the eye cannot see itself directly.

It didn't feel anywhere particularly.

Yes, it has no particular location.

The closest i could describe is behind/within, but not as a single point, but as spaciousness.

This sentence is not given from direct experience. Have you seen awareness behind/within ? Have you seen it as spaciousness ? When you don't see something, it is better to say : I don't know.

But it doesn't feel separate from the sensations.

Yes, the sensations, all appearances and thoughts are not separate from the knowing of them.

What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?

No, a spaciousness/separation, but not any/thing, but not nothing.

Can you give an answer to the same question after having looked at direct experience ?

There were no body sensations that were me. Almost feels like i am whats "behind" all the sensations. When I touched my face i did not feel "behind them" in the directional sense, but behind them in a observational sense, like they were on a screen.

Look at direct experience and tell me if awareness is behind sensations ? If it is the case, there will be a separation between them. Have you seen really that there is no separation between the knowing and what is known ?

These feel clear at times and hazy at others.

Would you clarify for me : what is clear or hazy ?

Warissem

[pockets]

Hi Warissem, hope things are well.

This sentence is not given from direct experience. Have you seen awareness behind/within ? Have you seen it as spaciousness ? When you don't see something, it is better to say : I don't know.

Perhaps my confusion is in the word “seen”. I haven’t /seen/ it as spaciousness, but when I looked to what was experiencing, it felt open and behind (compared to every-day autopilot), but I don't know exactly what that means, because it didn’t feel like i was seeing it clearly. This is roughly what I meant by hazy. I understand your feedback, and will try to be more clear. I don't know where it is.

Can you give an answer to the same question after having looked at direct experience ?

I’m sorry, I cannot give it clearly at this time

Look at direct experience and tell me if awareness is behind sensations ? If it is the case, there will be a separation between them. Have you seen really that there is no separation between the knowing and what is known ?

I have not directly seen the lack of separation, or perhaps I don't understand exactly what separation means. I am only seeing anything when I am fully in the exact moment of experiencing a specific sensation. When I am actually experiencing a sensation(s), that is all there is in that exact moment.

Would you clarify for me : what is clear or hazy ?

Clearness is when I am actually experiencing a sensation(s), the haze is the labeling/conceptualizing about what I am experiencing and how they relate to the questions you are asking. Practically, this manifests itself as experiencing and then “catching” myself thinking, but getting the two things confused due to a lack of clarity, and giving answers that I think are in my direct experience but are actually a mixture of direct experience and conceptualizing about direct experience without even realizing I am doing it :)

Thanks,

[warissem]

Hi pockets

Fine. You are going slowly but surely, as it is said. There is an exercise for you, I wish there will be more clarity.

Go for a walk in a park or outside the town. Observe what is going on : describe what is seen, what is heard, what is smelt, what is tasted if so, sensations, feelings. Keep on for a half day and write back.

Warissem

[pockets]

Hi Warissem,

Fine. You are going slowly but surely, as it is said.

Thank you for the encouragement :)

Observe what is going on : describe what is seen, what is heard, what is smelt, what is tasted if so, sensations, feelings. Keep on for a half day and write back.

I spent a day doing as you suggested. Countless times (hundreds) I could feel myself slipping out of directly experiencing sensations and instead falling into the content of thoughts. Each time I gently intended to directly feel instead.

In direct experience there was pressure on my feet, tingling on skin from wind, minor dull pain in my lower back. pulsing pressure in my lips, itchy tingling in my nostrils. There was slight damp warmth on my skin. I perceived pressure from my heartbeat, and my shirt against my chest when it beat. I perceived increasing warmth and pressure on my feet throughout the day. As i perceived these, I felt myself immediately labeling them with their names. When I sat down for a while, there was a short period where after my hands were very still, they felt like raw sensations of pressure and not like "hands".

There was bright colors and shapes, moving shadows cast from trees in the wind. Many colors and shades, graffiti on walls, bits of broken glass that shimmered bright light. Blue skies partially obscured by dark grey slow moving clouds.

There were tens of distinct sounds; cars, birds, wind, voices, low rumbling, water running, sounds of my arms brushing my shirt as I walked, the sound of air in my inhale breath. Tasted saltiness in my mouth, but otherwise didn't experience tastes, nor many smells.

As I write about them, I am not currently experiencing them, but observing thoughts about them.

[warissem]

Hi pockets

As I write about them, I am not currently experiencing them, but observing thoughts about them.

Sure you can not write about them during the experience.

Now, a homework exercise : take what you wrote in your last post and write down the experiences without using I or me. Example :

There were tens of distinct sounds; cars, birds, wind, voices, low rumbling, water running, sounds of my arms brushing my shirt as I walked, the sound of air in my inhale breath.

Re written as : There were tens of distinct sounds; cars, birds, wind, voices, low rumbling, water running, sounds of arms brushing the shirt during the walking, the sound of air in inhale breath.

What is coming up as feelings, sensations after having done the exercise ?

Is a me or an I necessary for things to be done ?

Warissem

[pockets]

there was pressure on the feet, tingling on skin from wind, minor dull pain in the lower back. pulsing pressure in the lips, itchy tingling in the nostrils. There was slight damp warmth on the skin. there was pressure from the heartbeat, and the shirt against the chest when it beat. There was increasing warmth and pressure on the feet throughout the day.

There was bright colors and shapes, moving shadows cast from trees in the wind. Many colors and shades, graffiti on walls, bits of broken glass that shimmered bright light. Blue skies partially obscured by dark grey slow moving clouds.

There were tens of distinct sounds; cars, birds, wind, voices, low rumbling, water running, sounds of the arms brushing the shirt during the walking, the sound of air in inhale breath. Tasted saltiness in the mouth.

What is coming up as feelings, sensations after having done the exercise ?

Just to clarify, when you say "coming up as feelings", are you referring to direct experiential feelings, or emotional/thought-content feelings? I will do my best to answer both ways

1) Direct experiential feelings after doing the exercise. There was more perceiving of raw sensations (for example, shirt the body, pressure in the lower back) and less thought content, for a period of time. The sensations themselves did not feel different.

2) Emotional/thought-content. I felt like the distinction was apparent but subtle. For example, changing the text: "my arms" to: "the arms", made me think "Well these are the only arms that are being perceived. There are no perceived sensations from any arms other than these, so what's the difference?." I still struggle with this. I can agree that "I" am not necessary for the experiencing of arm sensations, but then why are only those sensations perceivable, and not the sensations of the arms of another person (for example)?

The change from "Tasting saltiness in my mouth" to "Tasting saltiness in the mouth" also made me wonder where (spatially) that sensation is found. For example, what it is about the actual sensation of taste makes me "know" that it's in "my" mouth? How does awareness differentiate these types of sensations? It clearly does, in my direct experience, taste and pressure are distinct and unique, but why, and how? Are they in different locations? Are they made of the same thing? These are some of the questions I found in thought.

Is a me or an I necessary for things to be done?

Sensations happen on their own. If "I" choose to focus on direct experience, I can mostly distinguish sensations from thought-content, and can sometimes notice when I slip out of directly experiencing things and into thought. So in that regard, "i" am not necessary for things to be done, and I am not necessary for sensing to take place. But "I" do feel necessary to remind myself to perceive direct experience.

Hopefully I approached your questions correctly.

Thanks for sharing the exercise, it spurred a lot of inquiry.

[warissem]

Hi pockets

2) Emotional/thought-content. I felt like the distinction was apparent but subtle. For example, changing the text: "my arms" to: "the arms", made me think "Well these are the only arms that are being perceived.

Are you thinking or do thoughts arising without your help ?
Do you see a me to whom arms belong or is it just a thought that you believe ?

There are no perceived sensations from any arms other than these, so what's the difference?." I still struggle with this. I can agree that "I" am not necessary for the experiencing of arm sensations, but then why are only those sensations perceivable, and not the sensations of the arms of another person (for example)?

What is this "I" struggling or wanting to understand ? Look.

The change from "Tasting saltiness in my mouth" to "Tasting saltiness in the mouth" also made me wonder where (spatially) that sensation is found. For example, what it is about the actual sensation of taste makes me "know" that it's in "my" mouth? How does awareness differentiate these types of sensations? It clearly does, in my direct experience, taste and pressure are distinct and unique, but why, and how? Are they in different locations? Are they made of the same thing? These are some of the questions I found in thought.

A lot of questions, the truth is not among thoughts. You have to look and have faith in what is seen. It is of no help to
go to thoughts nor believe them. For the sake of understanding, "mouth", "arm" are only concepts pointing to appearances. What is here is seen with or sans concepts. Even a baby who does not know any concept sees what is here.

Sensations happen on their own. If "I" choose to focus on direct experience, I can mostly distinguish sensations from thought-content, and can sometimes notice when I slip out of directly experiencing things and into thought. So in that regard, "i" am not necessary for things to be done, and I am not necessary for sensing to take place. But "I" do feel necessary to remind myself to perceive direct experience.

The same question as above : describe this "I" for me.


Warissem

[pockets]

Hi Warissem,

Are you thinking or do thoughts arising without your help ?
Do you see a me to whom arms belong or is it just a thought that you believe ?

Thoughts come whether i notice intention or not. I see thoughts come. Some thoughts are so convincing and distracting that there isn't awareness of direct experience. When I feel the direct sensations on my arms, for example, I shortly find thoughts with contents about my/the arms, then re-notice the sensations themselves. when this happens, it feels like the arms are just arms, not /my/ arms.

What is this "I" struggling or wanting to understand ? Look.

The i struggling and wanting to understand is a thought. After writing that sentence, i reminded myself to look at direct experience (this intention to do so was ALSO a thought that I observed). This pattern continued. For a moment I saw thoughts happening very quickly, starting one after another, like a very fast train of thought that I could see.

i have observed that thoughts and focused attention on sensations cannot happen at the exact same time.

truth is not among thoughts.

for the first time in my direct experience, I can very quickly recognize that thoughts are just thoughts. But it feels like the second I recognize this, there is almost immediately another thought in its place, endlessly, even as I am typing.

The same question as above : describe this "I" for me.

"I" is just happening. "I" is sometimes raw sensations, sometimes it is thought. they feel similar/close together

felt a very slight moment of a strange feeling when experiencing this

Thank you

[warissem]

Hi pockets

Thoughts come whether i notice intention or not. I see thoughts come.

What is intention outside of thought ?

Some thoughts are so convincing and distracting that there isn't awareness of direct experience.

Knowing thoughts without taking their train is also direct experience.

When I feel the direct sensations on my arms, for example, I shortly find thoughts with contents about my/the arms, then re-notice the sensations themselves. when this happens, it feels like the arms are just arms, not /my/ arms.

Yes, there is no you having arms.

The i struggling and wanting to understand is a thought. After writing that sentence, i reminded myself to look at direct experience (this intention to do so was ALSO a thought that I observed). This pattern continued. For a moment I saw thoughts happening very quickly, starting one after another, like a very fast train of thought that I could see.

Yes, good observations.

for the first time in my direct experience, I can very quickly recognize that thoughts are just thoughts. But it feels like the second I recognize this, there is almost immediately another thought in its place, endlessly, even as I am typing.

Yes, the separate self, you, is thoughts about a thought.

"I" is just happening. "I" is sometimes raw sensations, sometimes it is thought. they feel similar/close together.

You said previously that "I" is a thought, how can it be a sensation? give more details about you see in direct experience.

felt a very slight moment of a strange feeling when experiencing this

There is no you, no separate self in any shape or form. Look.

Warissem

[pockets]

Hi Warissem.

What is intention outside of thought ?

Intention is thought. I have seen this. But, it only feels like thought when "i" look very closely. 99% of my "intentions" just happen without recognition.

Knowing thoughts without taking their train is also direct experience.

May I ask what you mean by "taking their train"? Sometimes it is hard to discern the extent to which I was watching thought vs watching content of thought/being absorbed.

You said previously that "I" is a thought, how can it be a sensation? give more details about you see in direct experience.

"I" appears to be whatever is happening in an exact moment, which can be thoughts, and it can be sensations. But when I looked to direct experience of sensations today, i was immediately met with thoughts about the sensations. Instantaneously. The transition from sensation to the conceptualization of sensation was so quick that I couldn't see where it started. it could go to a sensation of pressure, then to the conceptualization of pressure and back to the sensation of pressure very rapidly. I don't know what "I" is at this time.

Yes, the separate self, you, is thoughts about a thought.

The thoughts of thoughts and recognition of thoughts come so quickly that it feels like there is no room to just be.


Thank you, Warissem.