End illusions

[Luchana]

Hi Steve,

you did another good looking.

That is amazing, that is unbelievable how many thoughts are there concerning this me. Thanks for that.
I will continue to really look. Thank you

:-) Yes. you did a wonderful investigation. When you look closer to the "other" related thoughts you will see that they are also about the self, me, in some hidden way. You can play with some more thoughts with curiosity just to be sure - they are ALL about the self. No exception.

Now let's exprole choice, decision and control with a simple exercise.


1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:


What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Take your time, make this as many times as it's possible during the day.

Have fun :-)

Much love,
Luchana

[Steve1991]

Hi Luchana,

You can play with some more thoughts with curiosity just to be sure - they are ALL about the self. No exception.

Yeah as i was looking across the street at a car you could see the mind interpreting that there is a me looking out at the car. And even thoughts of food it always relates back to self like I'm cooking I'm hungry.

That is a very good exercise that had stunned 'me' :)

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

I cannot find a chooser the hand just lifted no puppet here doing it.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

Nope and it is easy to check. That really is a shock that experiment.

What is it that is controlling the hand?

I cannot find anything controlling the hand movement. But how does it move? :0.
The decision just seems to be made and hand moves thought is always behind with its label gun. I have no idea how the decision is made not a clue.
When I look I can't find anything that makes the hand move and I can feel a lot of confusion and tension with this.
I will continue with this example and really study choice. Thank you.

[Luchana]

Hi Steve,

Yeah as i was looking across the street at a car you could see the mind interpreting that there is a me looking out at the car. And even thoughts of food it always relates back to self like I'm cooking I'm hungry.

It's good that you can see this.
But what is mind?
Can "the mind interpreting" be experienced other than a content of thought?
How mind is experienced exactly?
Just look for the simple facts.

I cannot find a chooser the hand just lifted no puppet here doing it.

Nope and it is easy to check. That really is a shock that experiment.

I cannot find anything controlling the hand movement.

You did an exelent looking.
The shock is actually very welcome :-)

Is there someone or something who is in shock?
Other than a thought about someone being shocked?

But how does it move? :0.

Who or what wants to know?
Can this one be found in experience?


You've skip three questions, so here they are again:

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Look vigilantly.

The decision just seems to be made and hand moves thought is always behind with its label gun. I have no idea how the decision is made not a clue.
When I look I can't find anything that makes the hand move and I can feel a lot of confusion and tension with this.

Another great looking and here come confusion and tension. It is all OK.
Just give time to this completely new seeing to settle down. It's like you see something, but the whole sistem refuses to accecpt it. Make the exercise with the hands, reply to the skipped questions again, genlty inquire and allow all the tension and confusion to be here.
You're doing really great.

I will continue with this example and really study choice. Thank you.

Your willignes to continue brings joy :-) Something important here - there is HUGE difference between study and looking at choice. Study is intellectual. Looking lead to experiential recognition that no one has ever had any choice.

We will come back to this later :-)


Much love,
Luchana

[Steve1991]

Hi Luchana,
Wow Lu hits the 'me' hard.

But what is mind?

Smiling. Mind is a thought so all we do is imagine we have a container for thoughts but we don't :0.

Can "the mind interpreting" be experienced other than a content of thought?

Nope it cannot. Theres experiencing then thought comes in and takes credit. a label can't experience anything.

How mind is experienced exactly?

Mind is literally just the current thought or thoughts only.

Is there someone or something who is in shock?

there is only a supposed character in shock and all that is entirely in thought. Wow i just typed that haha that was a little aha moment :) :) :)

Who or what wants to know?

There is no one here that wants to know. I cannot locate the questioner.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No the supposed controller is always late to the party. Always comes in after. I did this etc. In direct experience no controller can be found.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

there is nothing going off present experience.

How is the decision made?

No idea, its just seems to happen amazingly.

. It's like you see something, but the whole sistem refuses to accecpt it.

yes exactly always seems to be a back and forth.

Ok Luchana no more studying for me :) through the day I will continue to look. Thank you these last few days have been very intense and to the point.
Theres still a small amount of resistance in the back round, but I feel its a good thing. Like something does not want to give up without a fight. Even the hand exercise before I started to do it I went up the garden shed and started cleaning up there first:0 I never clean lol must be something trying to hide from the truth.

[Luchana]

Hi Steve,

you did excellent looking.

Wow Lu hits the 'me' hard.

:-) But the senstaion is not like pain.. there is sweetness in it, right?

there is only a supposed character in shock and all that is entirely in thought. Wow i just typed that haha that was a little aha moment :) :) :)

And I am smiling also... :-)

No the supposed controller is always late to the party. Always comes in after. I did this etc. In direct experience no controller can be found.

Oh, what a beautiful inside! :-) Yes, the controller is always late, but that doesn't stop him from behaving like an organizer of the party.

yes exactly always seems to be a back and forth.

Back and forth may last for a while or for some more. This can't be known in advance - for each one is different. sometimes it may last years :-) Seeing that there is no one running the show is just the first step, just a begining.

The question that may help while there is a seemingly back and forth is:

What is it that can move back and forth?
Is there something solid, inherent, separate that can make this action - back and forth?

Theres still a small amount of resistance in the back round, but I feel its a good thing. Like something does not want to give up without a fight. Even the hand exercise before I started to do it I went up the garden shed and started cleaning up there first:0 I never clean lol must be something trying to hide from the truth.

yea, so true and it happens with me also..as if suddenly there is something much more important to do than this investigation. But as you've notice very well - these are ways to protect something from being found out :-) something simple, extremely obvious when it is looked at.

And here we go aagain, diving into the choice with a simple exercise.

Take two glases with different beverages (milk and water, or juise and coke, or coffe and tea). It could be also something else. Put these glasses in front of you. Take couple of breaths, just to settle down a little. Look at glasses and choose one.
As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of taking glasses, puting something in them (etc) when 'you' control the process?

Watch like a hawk.


How the decision is made which glass to choose?

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?

Do ‘you’ choose?

Can a chooser be located?


Also investigate this not only during the exercise, but in the midst of your everyday life - while shopping - what to buy, what to prepare for dinner, what to watch, read, listen - examine. Each time when there is a feeling that I, Steve choose this or that - look.

Is this true?


Much love
Luchana

[Steve1991]

Hi Luchana,

:-) But the sensation is not like pain.. there is sweetness in it, right?

Yeah it definitely has a pull of truth to it. And is exiting to experiment into this false self. Sweetness is a perfect description.

What is it that can move back and forth?

Thanks for this, I will inquire when its needed.

Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of taking glasses, puting something in them (etc) when 'you' control the process?

nope there is no me making the tea. The tea just effortlessly got made.

How the decision is made which glass to choose?

there was just a selection and that's it. Hand reached out and picked one.

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?

from direct experience I would say automatically.

Do ‘you’ choose?

Always thought so but when you look at it there is no one here to choose.

Can a chooser be located?

Nope no chooser can ever be located.

[Steve1991]

Also investigate this not only during the exercise, but in the midst of your everyday life - while shopping - what to buy, what to prepare for dinner, what to watch, read, listen - examine. Each time when there is a feeling that I, Steve choose this or that - look.

Is this true?

Thanks Luchana,
I will continue with these exercises today and look at everything. Thanks for your help this is amazing.

[Luchana]

Hi Steve,

nope there is no me making the tea. The tea just effortlessly got made.

there was just a selection and that's it. Hand reached out and picked one.

you did another very good looking.

from direct experience I would say automatically.

Is there any other experience besides the direct one?

What is NOT happen automatically?

Always thought so but when you look at it there is no one here to choose.

Nope no chooser can ever be located.

nice :-)

What I suggest now is to go for a walk somewhere in nature. A small park nearby is a good option also. Walk for a while, sit somewhere and look arround. Trees, flowers, insects, birds, people's chatters, children's playing, sensations in the body, thoughts including the thought of I, Steve am sitting, looking and observing- All this is just one happening. Look at what is present and answer these questions:

Can the character chooses what to feel, what to think, whether go for a walk or not?

Does the character choose this story?

Can it chooses another story, a different one, instead of what already is?

Can the story of Steve be seen as what it is - just a story, including Steve?


Take your time.

Much love,
Luchana

[Luchana]

Thanks Luchana,
I will continue with these exercises today and look at everything. Thanks for your help this is amazing.

You are most welcome :-)

[Steve1991]

Hi Luchana,

Is there any other experience besides the direct one?

Nope:) only this here and now.

What is NOT happen automatically?

It is automatic the hand just reaches out and picks a cup. Cool. Before the thought of no control would scare me but now I can see the wonder and that means everything is a surprise. You never know whats happening next.

What I suggest now is to go for a walk somewhere in nature

. Will do, take my beautiful boxer pup for a. Long walk down the lakes and forest. Will get back to you with my discovery's.
Thanks

[Steve1991]

Hi Luchana,

Can the character chooses what to feel, what to think, whether go for a walk or not?

definitely not, thought come and go with no-one here choosing the content. Otherwise why would we pick stressful and harmful thoughts to ever arise. If there was a chooser we would constantly pick pleasant and happy thoughts. Same with feeling if we could choose we would never be stressed again. :) :) the character cannot choose to go for a walk the choice is made and walking happens+the story of the character being the doer.

Does the character choose this story?

nope the character does not. Storys always change and are largely based on past experience and conditioning that we feel that 'I' experienced. Again that was all a side story that was added on.

Can it chooses another story, a different one, instead of what already is?

impossible it is as it is. This is it we can't choose to be somewhere else because that is just imagination.

Can the story of Steve be seen as what it is - just a story, including Steve?

Oh wow. Steve is just a name given to this body. The belief that steve is located in this body is rubbish. There are steve's dislikes and likes and conditioning playing out in thought all to the apparent self that is believed to be here. I've noticed that the only time there is suffering is when we take the story to be us.

Will continue to keep looking thanks.

[Luchana]

Hi Steve,
you did a very good looking both the first and the second messages.
It was a wonderful walk, wasn't it?

definitely not, thought come and go with no-one here choosing the content. Otherwise why would we pick stressful and harmful thoughts to ever arise. If there was a chooser we would constantly pick pleasant and happy thoughts. Same with feeling if we could choose we would never be stressed again. :) :) the character cannot choose to go for a walk the choice is made and walking happens+the story of the character being the doer.

Exactly. Thoughts are coming on their own, no one choosing them.no one controlling, no one knows what will think next.
Is there any doubt that this is so?
If there is - please share.

What about responsibility?
Is there someone responsible for them ( thoughts)?

Steve is just a name given to this body.

So, the real thing here is a body.
Look at the body and write without using concepts - what is a body?
What does the word body point to in experience?

Is it the body that experiences, or is the body, too, experienced?


Take your time

Much love
Luchana

[Steve1991]

Hi Luchana,

It was a wonderful walk, wasn't it?

the walk was amazing.

Is there any doubt that this is so?
If there is - please share.

I can see that no one has any control over thoughts and feelings but sometimes still feel guilt from some thoughts and feelings. Example is if i have feeling of anger towards a work mate and thoughts that follow. That happened yesterday, we friends now:) :) :). Even tho the thoughts and feeling are not controlled by a me and the guilt is all just a play of the story it still seems to pull 'me' away.

What about responsibility?
Is there someone responsible for them ( thoughts)?

I can never find anyone to be responsible but now i can see this contradicts the above statement I made wow. This belief runs so deep even tho I can see its all a story.

what is a body?

body is a vehicle so that experiencing can happen.

What does the word body point to in experience

the word body just seems to point to an image of this body. But the word is not the the body.

Is it the body that experiences, or is the body, too, experienced?

oh yeah the body is experienced also.

Had some fear and resistance come in waves today. It wad left alone and passed by. Will continue to dig, thanks so much Luchana.

[Luchana]

Hi Steve,

I can see that no one has any control over thoughts and feelings but sometimes still feel guilt from some thoughts and feelings. Example is if i have feeling of anger towards a work mate and thoughts that follow. That happened yesterday, we friends now:) :) :). Even tho the thoughts and feeling are not controlled by a me and the guilt is all just a play of the story it still seems to pull 'me' away.

All this is normal. Seeing that there is no one here controling thoughts and sensations is one thing - yes, the main belief fails. But there are many other beliefs and they will gradually failing apart. This is just the begining, just the first step, sensations will continue arising and thoughts will continue claiming this and that. The show must and will go on :-) But when an emotion pop up and trigger surtain feeling it is not because the self is back. All the conditioning is not going to fail down in an instant, just like it does not build in a day :-)
Looking is very much the key.

I can never find anyone to be responsible but now i can see this contradicts the above statement I made wow. This belief runs so deep even tho I can see its all a story.

Yes, so looking that there is no one responsabile doesn't remove the feeling of responsibility.
But is that mean the this feeling belongs to anyone?

body is a vehicle so that experiencing can happen.

Can you give it another try - without using a concept? I know it is hard, but try :- )

Is it possible that this/life/what is is a concept?
With eyes closed, notice what is body?
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Don't rely on thoughts, memories, on what has been learned and heard.
Examine, curiously like a child. A child doesn't know anything.

Had some fear and resistance come in waves today. It wad left alone and passed by. Will continue to dig, thanks so much Luchana.

Fear, resistance, doubts, boredom, sleepiness, ... all these are part of the process. Trust it :-) And you are not alone. If the fear become stronger - share with me.

Much love
Luchana

[Steve1991]

Hi Luchana,
Had another walk today and sat and listened. Beautiful when you watch the body doing its thing and nature doing its thing also. Very peaceful.

But is that mean the this feeling belongs to anyone?

no there is no one here for the feeling to attach to when you look at it.

Is it possible that this/life/what is is a concept?

Honest answer is I really don't know.

With eyes closed, notice what is body?

When eyes are closed the body is just a sensation.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

no it cannot be know at all. Its only thought that comes up with ideas, but in experience its impossible to know.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

no the body does not.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

no shape and form just a sensation.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

In actual experience there is only a sensation. If I didn't refer to any thoughts I'd have no idea that I had a body.

Trust it :-)

will do thanks for everything you are amazing at really getting me to question everything.