Life

[Ronaldo]

Hi Brane,
Yes, you got the quote function :)

This is not boring to me. To the contrary. I appreciate your time and I see now what is the purpose of it and why this has to be done in this way

Thank you, I'm happy this is how you feel about it.

for example, I should not chat with you, but continue working:)

OMG you read my mind! I find it hard to keep myself from responding while trying to work...

Your description was helpful, perhaps the only point worth another look is how the decision was made:

Based on the view and previous experience that the chocolate will not do me any good, and I should avoid it.

No argument that this is what it seems to be, but that implies that a thoughts know and thoughts causes action. You may find this short talk by Spira of interest https://youtu.be/V560v1eQJzA?t=58


Can you describe for me how you see the illusion of "me"? What creates the illusion?

And then, what creates identification with the body?


Regards
Ron

[Brane]

Hi Ron,
thanks for the reply and questions.

No argument that this is what it seems to be, but that implies that a thoughts know and thoughts causes action. You may find this short talk by Spira of interest https://youtu.be/V560v1eQJzA?t=58

Thanks for sharing Spira. I see what you mean with the choce of thoughts. On the creation of self with after the first thought, as Spira discussed, I will touch upon below when I reply to your second question. Just one thing to clarify about thought and actions. I see that thought can not think, and they are just thoughts. That is clear. Also, that the choice is not done by the "self". This is even more clear. Also, i see that thoughts do not initiate action on their own. However, there is a relationship, not causal, between thoughts and respective action. For example, I walk down a street, and a thought arise that i left the kitchen stove on. I immediately change the course of action, because I do not want my appartment to put on fire, and head to the apartment. So, what I am saying, there is a relationship between the thought, the knowledge, or knowing (whatever that is) which suggests that is stupid to let your appartment burn, and the action that took place. I am, again, not saying that it was the thought that caused the action, but rather an element to be considered in this process. Had the thought never appeared, I would have continued walking and the appartment would burn:), and the action would have never happened. I see that this is not about the exercise on choices we had, but i wanted to clarify it anyway, and see if we are on the same page here.

Can you describe for me how you see the illusion of "me"? What creates the illusion?

I would like to expand here by relying on experiential observation, if I may. Since 2019, I've been doing an online course I mentioned in the introduction to this post, a course which uses similar method as the LU, but takes a more gradual way. However, the emphasis is on analytical meditation, and there has been tremendous progress by doing it. That was for the context. I found about the LU by watching Jackson Peterson on Youtube, where LU was mentioned. I immediately checked the page, and started reading the book Gateless Gatecrashers. I read some chapters, which left me nearly without sleep, but from being relaxed and curious, not tensed. I did a regular meditation practice in the morning, and for the first time i could just "be" during the meditaion - or what in Buddhism is said: non-mediation without distraction. I then went to take a walk, and suddenly boom - I saw nothing, that there is nothing to see, and the self is just an illusion. I started firstly laughing, and then everything around just manifested in a natural way - as it is. The feeling was like dropping thousands pounds for my shoulder (this is a quote i read somewhere), but the feeling was like it. So simple and familiar, but yet so fresh and exciting. The whole week after that was like the body was on vacation, relaxing naturally, with occasional bliss. No sense of doer, just life is doing itself. This feeling has dropped in the last week, but i am aware that this is normal.
Anyway, how do i know that the self is an illusion? Let me give an analogy. It is like somebody was convincing me whole life that in the room (which let's say I never entered) next to mine there is a person living. One day, I opened the room and I saw the room is empty. This is how sure I was when i had the glimplse of emptiness and seeing that self is an ilussion. There was never self in the room. It has been always epmty. Somebody was lying to me.
So back to your question. What creates the illusion?
Two things come to my mind. The world around helps this illusion to be reprocuded continously. Like the ideology of self is present through language, stories, concepts, etc. Million things.
The second, more important for the experience, is what Spira mentioned - how after the first thought an illusion is being created. This i could only see and observed after I had realization a few weeks ago. I could basically trace how the second thought perpetuates the self. There is awareness immediately kicking in after the first thought or the second, acknowledging the creation of self by a thought. This was not the case before. The observation is now going up and down, it was more stronger in the first week that now, but never left. There is, for example, a thought about work and the relationships there, and then the second and third thought include the self in this event and then creating scenarios that are not real, reproducing the self continously.

And then, what creates identification with the body?

The after-after first thoughts that create identification of self with the body. A similar process as described above.

Thanks for the questions,
Brane

[Ronaldo]

Hi Brane,
Thanks for the great descriptions!
Regarding cause and effect, I only can see according to where "I am" in this never ending deepening.
This was a good example (stove left on) and you correctly raise the circumstantial evidence here that points to thought causing action, which any court will accept. Only, in direct experience we cannot know that the thought was the cause of the body turning back, the content of thoughts isn't a trusted whiteness, I caught them cheating so many times before (to keep my analogy going). Furthermore, so much, most of the actions are clearly not the cause of thoughts, a thought is often the afterthought, agree? Again, this raises a lot of suspicion that something isn't seen fully, why the exception?
In addition, we don't know what time is and how this unfolding is happening, the story seems like a narrative all along, not the actual appearances, it is quite possible that the thought appears at the right time because it has, and it's simply an unfolding happening all at once - I've had such glimpses but not something I can see now, and so my conclusion is - I don't know, and it's perfectly fine.


You had a beautiful awakening, and hopefully you retain some of that conviction, but now this is gone. When it's gone, there is a desire to see it again, to be in that state again and forever... you've probably already experienced that desire. No special state is permanent, and it's as good as yesterday's meal.. what matters is to see the illusion at any time - now. If not, the seeing of no self, becomes a belief in no-self.
So my job here is to help you see it now. Seeing the empty room analogy is something so powerful and so you'll never be fooled again, but the story of Brane is still being told, isn't it? You are still often lost in thoughts or see the world as outside of you, is that correct? That too will just keep on happening.


In the illusion of me, there are few culprits, language is one of them, thoughts referencing an "I" are clearly there, but there is more.

The world around helps this illusion to be reprocuded continously.

Is there a body 'Brane' made of matter, and there is a world outside of Brane made of matter? And is that outside world experienced by that body/mind through the senses?
The other day you clearly expressed how the body cannot be experienced, which is it?
I don't want an intellectual reply, you're smart and you'll give me the right one :-p I want you to experience it.
Look at an object - see if there is any evidence that the object is outside of you?
Is there an object at all? What is actually seen?

Close your eyes and listen - find a constant sound and let the labels drop... what is left?

R: what creates identification with the body?

B: The after-after first thoughts that create identification of self with the body. A similar process as described above.

Isn't the body a huge contributor to the "me"?
Once again, sit and watch carefully.
What tells you that the heartbeat is coming from that location?
When you have an itch, what tells you where to scratch?


Ron

[Brane]

Hi Ron,
thanks again.

Furthermore, so much, most of the actions are clearly not the cause of thoughts, a thought is often the afterthought, agree? Again, this raises a lot of suspicion that something isn't seen fully, why the exception?

Thoughts are just thought, I see that, there is no doubts about it. I just noted how they cannot be totally ignored when looking at process of action taking place. This was my concern. I also cannot understand the whole process, but i am fine with it. What matters is that thoughts are coming and going and nobody can do much about it. This is very clear.

You had a beautiful awakening, and hopefully you retain some of that conviction, but now this is gone. When it's gone, there is a desire to see it again, to be in that state again and forever... you've probably already experienced that desire.

The question is what is gone? On the one hand, you are right. The blissful feeling is gone, but this is anyway not a common state. So, there is no longing for it. The approach is to let everyhing come and go. What remained after the seeing is the sense of no-seperation and sense of oneness and openess to the people and the world around. Hard to put in words, but you know what i mean. Also, there is a radical change towards thoughts. I am much more open towards them. They are just coming and going and i am just letting them do so, like a good friend. It seems as a completely natural process thoughts to appear and dissapear, and this i can clearly see now, unline before. On the other hand, i find myself distracted and there is a chance this to become a belief, there are still stories where "Brane" is in centre of attention, but the identification with those stories dropped. Stories about the future are often silly, and sometimes funny. However, deepening is needed and I am willing to do so.

Is there a body 'Brane' made of matter, and there is a world outside of Brane made of matter? And is that outside world experienced by that body/mind through the senses?

There is no Brane and I have no idea what "matter" is:), or how to be experienced. Mind seems as a very elusive concept, and i cannot experience mind though the senses.

The other day you clearly expressed how the body cannot be experienced, which is it?
I don't want an intellectual reply, you're smart and you'll give me the right one :-p I want you to experience it.
Look at an object - see if there is any evidence that the object is outside of you?

I cannot experience body. I can experience labelling of body, but when looking at is it is impossible to experience body. I do not know how to do it.

Look at an object - see if there is any evidence that the object is outside of you?

Is there an object at all? What is actually seen?

thanks, a good pointer. I looked at my TV. I see only a colour, black colour, if i can say, but rarther just experience of a colour. It is interesing how the impulse for conceptualization drops when seeing the thing as it manifest itself. And I feel no-seperation with the TV. I just dont know how to describe this better.

Close your eyes and listen - find a constant sound and let the labels drop... what is left?

It seems that there is just a sound.

Isn't the body a huge contributor to the "me"?
Once again, sit and watch carefully.
What tells you that the heartbeat is coming from that location?
When you have an itch, what tells you where to scratch?

There is a relationship between what is going on with body and "me". For example, I feel a pain in the lower back and there is labeling as "body pain" or my "body hurts." So, there is a relationship, but the body does not do the labeling alone. There is a sensation plus labeling which equals "my body".

When you have an itch, what tells you where to scratch?

There is a sensation of an itch, and then there is a reaction.

Cheers,
Brane

[Ronaldo]

Hi Brane,
Very clear, I liked your replies and I think as far as LU is concerned, this is as far as we go.
As you know, seeing no-self is a first step in a lifelong removal of other beliefs and conditions - if life take you in that direction...

At this point we usually ask a few final questions and let other guides take a look and see if we missed anything.
After confirmation you will be invited to join our unleashed FB group and other threads on LU will open up.

Is there anything else you'd like to look at, or would you like to answer these now?

Thanks
Ron

[Brane]

Thanks Ron, you were very helpful and it was pleasure to go with you through this process. I learned a lot from you and the methods used here. I will now just wait and see what will come next. There is no pressing question now.

Thanks again and i hope we stay in touch,
Brane

[Ronaldo]

OK, this thread will hence stay on the Gate and trickle down and down with time.
You are welcome to post here anytime in the future, or change your mind and have access to this wonderful community, or guide others.

It has been a pleasure to explore with you, you are very welcome.

best regards!
Ron

[Ronaldo]

Hi Brane,
Sorry for misunderstanding!
As I pointed out, here are the final questions that I will show to other guides to see if there is anything that we might have missed and that my guiding was clear. Other guides may or may not have further questions for you.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialog?

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen?
How does it work?
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Thanks
Ron

[Brane]

Hi Brane,
Sorry for misunderstanding!

Thanks Ron, and no worries about it.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is not a separate self and it never was. Even though the seeing happened only a couple of weeks ago, it seems like the life before becomes a distant memory. Hard to put this in words.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

Self is just a story, a story which claims ownership of the “body”, and creates an illusion that self and body are a unified entity. Sensations in the body are being translated as my sensations, or my body sensations. For example, a sensation of pain is being labelled as "my body hurts," creating in this way the illusion of me and body as experiences and entities. The self is being made in many different ways, external and internal, but it comes down that self is a kind of a chain of thoughts created by “mind.” After the seeing happened, this process can be observed now with more attention and alertness

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialog?

When it comes to the world around us, and the life itself, it does not change anything. Life is the same. i still find myself distracted with toughts about "Brane", and still sometimes there is a sense of uneasiness, but this is losing power, and it takes now much less time. What changes is the perception, and it would not be fair to say that this shift in perception is not a big deal. The biggest difference has been the relationship towards thought. They come and go, and there is nobody and no thing that can do something about it. Recognizing this as a natural process it is a big relief. Also, after recognizing and seeing that there is no I, it seems like the life is taking its natural course. There is the sense of “being” around. I am noticing that the impulse for labelling of objects has been dropping, and things are manifesting as they are. It is hard to describe this lack to conceptualize in words. There is also a sense of openness and compassion that somehow shows up naturally, and sometimes the intensity supprises me.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

A few things I would say. The one that pushed me over was the moment when I was reading the book Gateless Gatecrashers. The guide was suggesting that “thinking, seeing, breathing”, is just happening, and there is no mechanism behind this that we can see or experience. After that I started to observe these experiences throughout the day and here cracked something. It was so obvious that the "seeing, thinking" is just happening, but never seeing it in this way. I could directly see the illusion at that moment. Then it dawned to me why the realization is often described as simple and ordinary, and why is being overlooked. The deepening happened while talking to Ron, especially the last exhange about objects as well as how the sensations plus labelling create the belief of “self and my body.”

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen?
How does it work?
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Choices are happening. It is very clear now that this happens almost automatically. I can observe this process of hanging around, and how the body moves, and how things are getting done. Even when I am distracted in thoughts, The doing is still happening. For example, I was making coffee today, while talking to my partner and not even thinking about the process of making coffee. However, the coffee was served anyway.

6) Anything to add?

It feels like that everyday there is something new to learn. I wrote before that the first week after recognition, it felt like the body was on vacation. It still feels a bit like it, but now what dominates is the sense of simplicity. Everything is simple and ordinary. The sense of seeking also drops down. I am fine with having something, but also fine without it. However, this should not be seen as a sort of passivity or lethargy. There is curiosity to go deeper and see what comes up. But this is different than the seeking.

[Ronaldo]

Thank you Brane,
You skipped one small section, could you add a sentence or two about that?
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience:

Ron

[Brane]

Sorry for that.

I hope I am reading the question below in a right way.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience:

It would be nihilistic to say that since there is no seperate self, that there is zero responsibility in life, and everything is meaningless. Quite to the contrary. There is a deeper sense of knowing, or call it whatever, that accompanies this life. There is a sense of responsibility about living beings, and life around us. There is no self, but there is so much everything else that we naturally care about.

[Ronaldo]

Thank you.
Yes, the question spans more than one level, on the one hand there is nothing you are responsible for, there is no you and no free will available, and yet, as you pointed out, anytime a self is assumed responsibility arises in the story of me.

This can take a couple of days, I'll keep you posted.
Best
Ron

[Ronaldo]

Hi Brane,
That was quick :) There are no further questions.
It has been a short but pleasurable dialogue with you, exploring these further.

Next your username will turn blue and you'll be invited to the Unleashed group etc.

As you already know, this is the first step in a lifelong deepening, happy to have shared this with you!

Regards
Ron

[Brane]

Thanks Ron, I enjoyed this very much as well. Happy to be a part of the group:)