The Gate

Hi Molly,

About identification… when the self is seen through, it doesn’t mean that from that on there will be no more identification at all. It also doesn’t mean that all sorts of suffering or discontent will stop.

When there is any form of suffering (even just the slightest discomfort), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.

but the sense that there is an experiencER is the only one which causes a pause. It's the one that seems to arise the most subtly. It is the least 'seen' of arising phenomena but there are undoubtedly thoughts arising that there is an I who is the experiencer. And when it comes to the topic of truth, there's still a sort of energetic movement towards it.

Yes, and that is totally normal. Seeing that there is no separate self is just the first step, just the beginning. There are many other beliefs that needs to be looked at AFTER, so those beliefs can loosen up and fall away over time… which could take years.

At the beginning, for almost everybody, there is a flip-flopping back and forth between seeing and identifying. Even after the self is seen through. The old conditioning of identifying is still strong, and there is a pull back to identify. So at this stage, which can last some time (and it cannot be known in advance how long it will take, maybe years), looking should go on to help to stabilize this flip-flopping.

but the sense that there is an experiencER

Yes, the sense of an experiencer can arise, of course.
The question is:
Is there an actual, real experiencer arising, or is this just a sense, a SEEMING thing, and not a real experiencer?

Could I check with you whether you think the above sounds like a fair representation, or whether anything written exposes possible hidden assumptions of etc?

Maybe there is a hidden expectation (?), that no more identification will or should happen after seeing no self. Also, that not a single sense of a self or an experiencer should arise any more. Or maybe that no more unpleasant sensations should happen…?

Look at these… do you expect any of those?

Should identification stop altogether?
Should any form of suffering or discontent stop?
Should there be no more unpleasant emotions?
Should the self will never ever believed again?
Should there be a 24/7 clear seeing?

Vivien

Great, thanks Vivien, perfect, these questions keep it real!

Should identification stop altogether?
Should any form of suffering or discontent stop?
Should there be no more unpleasant emotions?
Should the self will never ever believed again?
Should there be a 24/7 clear seeing?

Any arising desire for reassurance or anything is inside the story (like seeking reassurance from yourself!)
And the story will do whatever it does, including going back and forth between seeing and not seeing or whatever.
What's left after looking carefully at all your questions, is that what the whole experience seems to be made of... it seems to be strong and knowing and not personal....so best to stick with that! When story drifts back in, simply check for this separate 'I' - it's not there!

The question is:
Is there an actual, real experiencer arising, or is this just a sense, a SEEMING thing, and not a real experiencer?

Yes 100% it's a seeming thing, no real experiencer in existence - I love it!

Your questions have been incredibly helpful Vivien, and your time has been so appreciated - God, what a thing to do for people! How to say 'thank you' Vivien?!!

Hi Molly,

Your questions have been incredibly helpful Vivien, and your time has been so appreciated - God, what a thing to do for people! How to say 'thank you' Vivien?!!

You are most welcome :)

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

Vivien

It looks like I have no more questions Vivien. 😊 I'm sure plenty of stuff will come up, but when you noticed there was expectation - in this case expecting/ thinking there was an I who would 'find out' - it really drove home that there's noone there who could have a need...to find out or understand etc. And that relaxed the whole movement/ push. Thst 'need' has gone and it's freeing.

Thoughts come up clearly saying 'I want, I need' about things, anything, or a worry comes up, and it seems real for a moment. Then 'Aah look there's noone here' and it just sort of dies, drops away. It's a wonderful thing!

There was an urgency to find information about non-duality, which isn't like that now. But it would be great to be involved somehow and am wondering whether you might know of a good way to stay connected?

Mainly I just want to thank you for your generous giving of time and precise digging questions- it's remarkably direct and really stands out. Thank you, and thank you again 🌿

Hi Molly,

But it would be great to be involved somehow and am wondering whether you might know of a good way to stay connected?

We have a FB group that you will be invited to after we finished our conversation. There you can connect with others who also seen that there is no separate self in life. Also, we can become FB friends, and you can write to me any time if something comes up.

What we usually do at this stage of the process is to ask some final questions that I will show to other guides to see if there is anything that we might have missed and that my guiding was clear.

Are you ready for these final questions?

Vivien

Thank you for this information
Yes plz do send the questions,
Thank you

Hi Molly,

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

There never was a separate self being experienced. What was always being experienced was arising phenomena - thoughts sensations and perceptions. Thoughts make claims about there being an 'I' which is separate from the rest of experience: they claim that thoughts and sensations happen inside a body, and that perception is evidence of an outside world. But where's the evidence of this in experience? The body arises as images - images which are seen but which can't think or know anything themselves- rather they are known. When an image of 'my face' or another face comes up - what's the difference? Both just an image. Thoughts arise as words and pictures. What is the actual experience of 'I am hungry' for example? There's the arising thought-words, an arising sensation, maybe a mental image of the stomach to support the storyline, maybe even the image of a sandwich. The arisings match up with one another in terms of storyline, but all that has been experienced are arisings, only arisings. Where is the 'I' part, 'the one' who it all happens TO? There is no other place, outside of experience, where it could be. All of the experience of being hungry has been explored and no person has been found in it. Its' existence is claimed in the content of a thought, but there's nothing more than the claim itself to be found.
What is different now is when thought content arises which isn't useful to what's going on, it is soon dropped. It may be believed to begin with, but then there's a recollection that it's meaningless and not impactful, then it drops away.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Before this dialogue, there was a period of 2 years of noticing the nature of thought and questioning. There seemed to be progressively less of a vested interest in the content of thought, as identities that came up were dismissed as not true. But still, when an I thought arose, it still 'felt like me' - there was still an identification, something not clearly seen.
When thought is felt to be 'me', it's a totally different perspective from when it's just random thought, being generated for a story line without any 'me' around to make it special. Then the thought seems very different, impersonal. Before that the thoughts are always prioritised because it is 'your own' and it is thought that there is something to be gained personally.
But when there is seen to be no person outside, all just experiencing without an inside and outside, gain doesn't make sense.
In this way, the interest in thoughts is beginning to slow.There are lots of habits and automatic reactions in place, but there's no such thing as a 'me' to be protected, or a 'me' to find something out, and it's already very freeing.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Thoughts arose claiming that there was an 'experiencer' observing these arisings, and was assumed to exist as a separate observer, despite having never been found anywhere. One of Vivien's many poignant questions was something like 'Who says there's an experiencer?' And I think that was it - it was the same voice-thought-arising again just making another claim for identity, just like the others - nothing special. The whole 'I am the observer' identity wasn't different or more powerful than any of the others - just a few words arising, making a claim, in exactly the same way as all the previous identities: as a simple arising. And this claim was right there 'inside' or a part of experience, as were all the others - so it was seen that 'inside' and 'outside' and 'separate' are not in existence.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

The meaning of all 5 words depend on there being a 'separate self' in existence.
The 'feeling' of being in control, choice and making a decision is nothing other than a thought saying so. The impression is that there are a series of thoughts, conjured up by 'I', each thought aware of the other thoughts and impacted by the previous ones - then the end product is the decision that 'I' made. But what is experienced? The thought comes from nowhere, definitely not chosen. And where is the proof of cause and effect? All there is is the current thought content making a statement now, freshly - the previous thought is nowhere to be found. There is never any actual decision- making, even when there's apparent indecision and reference to memory eg 'Do I want tea or do I want coffee today?'.'Well yesterday I had tea. I think I like tea better at the moment....yes, I'll have tea.' All that has been experienced is arising thoughts, each with their own content: some claiming to be past, yet all happening in the present; all claiming to belong to a self, which is unfindable. If the image of the body arises to substantiate the impression that that there is a solid 'I, this image is also just another arising.
There cannot be any such thing as free will if there is no separate, cut-off part of experience for the quality of free will to belong to. Free will is an idea, as are the other 4 words, an idea that can only exist in a story where existence is cut off into parts so that they can interact with the other parts.

b)

What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

This 'I' has a job and a family. The 'I' may well continue to be responsible in the way that the story has gone so far, because I is a whole lot of intricate thoughts patterns which tend to keep coming up in a similar vein to the previous. But there is no saying what happens in a storyline: since there is no separate self, there is nothing to decide to be responsible or not responsible, so it's just whatever's happening happens.
This story has always had this character in it that looks after family members, children at school etc. This could be said to be responsible. But where's the doing of that? Where's the part where a decision is made other than thought content? Independently arising thought content say so, the thought patterns tell a story of responsibility - but if there's nobody owning those thought patterns, if they just arise effortlessly, then where's the effort? No doing can be found.

6) Anything to add?

Nothing else thank you 😊

Hi Molly,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to ask other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Other guides might have further questions, and if they do, I will bring them to you.

Vivien

Thanks to you and the other guides for your time in this

Hi Molly,

Other guides have no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Please don’t forget that this is just a beginning. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of conditionings, which needs further looking to help them to dissolve. All sorts of old beliefs, emotions and feeling can come up to see them and feel them. Please don’t stop looking if you want things to deepen.

If something comes up and you don’t know how to deal with it, please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look. I do further looking private sessions (video calls) and emotional work. If you are interested, you can read more about that on my website (you can find the link in my signature).

Vivien

What a set-up Liberation unleashed is, with aftercare too!
I don't have a FB account as yet but will certainly make one for this! (Btw Molly is a nickname and Annabella is what a FB account would have to say I'm guessing).
It's great to know you have other types of sessions available too, thanks for all the info, and thank you for the remarkable generosity of you and the other guides, gifting out your time in this way, it's an unparalleled service!
Thank you!

You are most welcome :)