My journey

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monika,
Great, so you've noticed (again) all senses appearing and thoughts passing, you describe the experience of "quietness" or perhaps "peacefulness" - would you agree that is not a new type of experience, rather something describing the LACK of thoughts, stress or worries? There is no "quietness" as an object to be found, correct?

Do you control the shifting of attention between the senses and the thoughts?
Alway answer from fresh looking, even if you think you know the answer - this is key.


You've already provided some answers to the questions below, but I want to be thorough, so please answer each of these questions, not from memory, not from thinking - try it as many times as you need to be sure. It's very simple if you keep it to direct experience:


How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?
Can you decide what thought will come next?
Can you stop a thought in the middle?
Can you trace back where thoughts are coming from?
Can you see where they are going?
Can you find a thought-generator?
Can a thinker be found who’s making these thoughts appear?

Please take your time with these,
You're welcome :) and have a good night,
Ron

[Punjab1]

would you agree that is not a new type of experience, rather something describing the LACK of thoughts, stress or worries?

Yes, I do agree Ron that peace I felt wasn’t new . I felt it because I wasn’t busy in thoughts or worries. I was looking at everything the way it was.

Do you control the shifting of attention between the senses and the thought?

No, I do not control the shifting of attention between senses and thoughts. It all happens automatically, if I hear a loud noise my attention go towards that , I can’t stop myself smelling things . Thoughts come whenever they want to come.

How do you make thoughts into existence?

Thoughts come and I follow that thought. For example, a thought say time to get up. I then get up and start my day, or if a thought say ‘time to have a cup of tea ‘ I get up and make tea for myself.

Can you decide what thought will come next?

No I can’t decide what thought will come next. Something I have thoughts about my past, about things I should be doing, a current situation. These thoughts try to tell me what will happen next.
I have noticed that when I meet people my thoughts about them comes up but it is up to me to follow that story or not. Whenever I am passing my old house, thought about that house comes . I can’t decide my next thought. If I ask myself what would be my next thought, it just goes quiet.

Can you stop the thought in the middle?

No I can’t stop my thoughts in the middle. They come so quickly and leave in no time. They are like a shooting star.

Can you trace back where thoughts are coming from?

I tried to pinpoint where thoughts are coming from but couldn’t find that. They come all of a sudden from nowhere and disappear the same way as well. I tried to follow, where they are going and I couldn’t find the thought I could only hear whatever was happening in the room . Like I could hear the noise of the kettle.

Can you find a thought generator?

No I can’t find the thought generator. Thoughts just come randomly. I am aware of them, but I don’t know who is the generator. It seems like they come from empty space and disappear in the same space.
Ron I don’t know if I was able to express what you asked me or not.
Kind regards
Monika

Can a thinker be found who’s making these thoughts appear?

No there is no thinker in my head. Thoughts just come whenever they want to come. Every time I look at something, thought about that thing comes. If a new situation comes, my thoughts about that situation start to come. But there in no thinker, it all happens by itself.

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monkia,

You did a nice investigation.
You noriced that there is no control over the shifting of attention - it moves freeliy between the sensations and thoughts.
You also noticed that there is no controller of thoughts, they appear and they are gone, it's not up to you.
You also noticed that there is no thought process, no thinker - there are just thoughts.
Very nice!

Keep noticing these items whenever you become aware of it all through your day.

Now let's go a bit deeper.

Thoughts come and I follow that thought. For example, a thought say time to get up. I then get up and start my day, or if a thought say ‘time to have a cup of tea ‘ I get up and make tea for myself.

Are the thouhgts casing action?
Or is action (doing) happens and thought comment on it?

Try this:
put your palm (hand) facing up, and only curl one finger each time (any finger), is a thought controlling the movement?
Watch very carefully. What is the difference of moving them with "thought intention" and then without intention? Switch moving them with thought and without thought (but keep moving them). Do you find a real difference? When you find yourself thinking about "blah", and your fingers keep moving - does thought moves them, or they just move? How is this controlled? Does the thought really affect action, or is that just something thought claims "I'm moving the 3rd finger now" but the movement just happens?

Where are your hands right now? Did you put them there with a thought? Or now a thought says "yea, this is comfortable this way, so I put them there?"

Let me know what you find,
Ron

[Punjab1]

Good evening Ron
Are the thoughts causing action?
Or is action (doing) happens and thought comment on it?

The answer for this question is action happens and thought comments on it. Same with my early morning getting up thought as well. Thought comes and says it’s time to get up, but I decide if I want to get up straight away or stay in bed for longer.
I tried the exercise you told me to do . I noticed that I didn’t follow all the thoughts all the time. Movement was just happening.

My hand right now is typing and writing is just happening. Thoughts did come that I need to send Ron a message but it didn’t decide when and what to write.
I will carry on with the looking .
Kind regards
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monika,

The answer for this question is action happens and thought comments on it. Same with my early morning getting up thought as well. Thought comes and says it’s time to get up, but I decide if I want to get up straight away or stay in bed for longer.

Who is that "I" that decided if they want to get up or stay in bed?
Is there a Monika who listens to the thoughts, and then decides what action to take?
Can you find her?

Best regards
Ron

[Punjab1]

Good afternoon Ron,

Who is that "I" that decided if they want to get up or stay in bed?

That ‘I ‘who say’ stay in the bed ‘is also a thought but because I am so busy in thoughts so don’t observe them and just trust them. They are all thoughts.
My inquiry says there is no Personal ‘I’ but whenever something big comes in life, I don’t inquire and just think it’s all happening to Monika.
Then fear comes and my thoughts give me the worst outcome and living with those uncomfortable thoughts is so hard.

Monika does not decide the actions. Action just happens.
But I do identify with thoughts but ‘who’ is identifying? If there is no me then who is identifying and deciding to go with a thought or not?

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monika,

whenever something big comes in life, I don’t inquire and just think it’s all happening to Monika.
Then fear comes and my thoughts give me the worst outcome and living with those uncomfortable thoughts is so hard.

Getting out of bed isn't scary I hope :) No need to go directly to big scary life events, look at the simple everyday "actions" and "decisions" - be 100% clear, look if what is done, is being controlled by a "self" or by some entity? Don't go to imagination, you have already seen what is real and what is fiction (thoughts). If there is something that thinks and controls - find it.

Monika does not decide the actions. Action just happens.
But I do identify with thoughts

Sit and let the thoughts come up - watch carefully what is this "identification with thoughts"?
Is there an identification taking place? Please describe how this works.

‘who’ is identifying? If there is no me then who is identifying and deciding to go with a thought or not?

There has never been a "me" - never, and yet experience is happening, thought stories are happening. No actor, not thinker, actions happen, thoughts are known. Realizing this or not does not change anything, everything will keep being as it is, as it has, so there is nothing to fear.

[Punjab1]

Good evening Ron

Thank you very much for your lovely message! I specially like these lines

Realizing this or not does not change anything, everything will keep being as it is, as it has, so there is nothing to fear.

Sit and let the thoughts come up - watch carefully what is this "identification with thoughts"?
Is there an identification taking place? Please describe how this works.

I am going to carry on looking with little things and let you know tomorrow, about my experience.
Just want to say thank you for your pointers to the truth. I know it’s nothing to learn, nothing to think.
Kind regards
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Just want to say thank you for your pointers to the truth. I know it’s nothing to learn, nothing to think.

You are very welcome, it's a pleasure to see pointers getting through :)

Have a good night,
Ron

[Punjab1]

Good afternoon Ron

I tried to see what is this idenfication with thoughts but got tangled in the thoughts. Really feeling stuck. Please help!

Your message keeps on coming in my head.

realizing this or not does not change anything, everything will keep being as it is, as it has.

I don’t know what else to write

Everything I want to write is not from my direct experience so ,I am going to leave it.

Kind regards
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Good afternoon dear Monika,

Do you experience any fear or frustration? Know that both are very common during this inquiry. If there is fear in the way, please let me know so that we can look at it. Like I said, there is already no self, it has never been anything but an idea, thoughts and sensations that are believed to be a body and a mind. Believed by whom? Not by you Monika, there is no you Monika, never has been, not even right now! So nothing is going to change, only that belief can be dropped.

I tried to see what is this idenfication with thoughts but got tangled in the thoughts. Really feeling stuck. Please help!

It's a bit tricky, what is there that can identify with a thought? What is there to a thought besides the thought?
let's visit this one again when things get clearer.

Please place your hand on the table, close your eyes.
Does the sensation tell you which is hand and which is table?
When you move the hand, it becomes more clear which is hand and which is table, but look carefully, does the sensation say which is which? Does it say what it the table made of?
What does? (what suggests what the table is made of, or which is the hand or the table)?


Now find a sound that is constantly there.
Close your eyes and listen..
Does the sound say anything about how far it is?
Does the sound say anything about what is producing it?
What does?

Let me know what you find!
Regards
Ron

[Punjab1]

Good afternoon Ron

How are you? Thanks for your lovely message! I really appreciate everything you are doing for me.

For the last couple of days, I felt so frustrated because somewhere inside I felt that everything is so simple and I know that,and same time my old habits were there.

Let’s start the work:
I have done the exercises you asked me to do:
I put my hand on the table, closed my eyes, felt the sensation. When I opened my eyes , thought labelled the
Hand and table . Another thought labelled that sensation was coming from my hand,but actual sensation was just a sensation.

Now find a sound that is constantly there.
Close your eyes and listen..

With this exercise, sound didn’t tell me, about location or where it was coming from. Thought came and labelled everything . Like the sound was coming from microwave. Sound was just a sound.

I also noticed that this morning when I was driving the car a thought came that need to fill the car with fuel. Within minutes I was at a petrol station filling the car. Everything happened automatically. I (Monika) didn’t do anything.

Many thanks
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Hello Monika,
You're welcome :)

For the last couple of days, I felt so frustrated because somewhere inside I felt that everything is so simple and I know that,and same time my old habits were there.

Frustration can be a sign of resistance, or that you're trying to grasp things through thinking. When frustration is felt during this inquiry, allow it, it's just what appears at the moment, and all is allowed, ease into sense perceptions, if that's available.

I also noticed that this morning when I was driving the car a thought came that need to fill the car with fuel. Within minutes I was at a petrol station filling the car. Everything happened automatically. I (Monika) didn’t do anything.

Good, but did the thought cause the action?
"Going to have breakfast now" - is that what will cause breakfast to happen? Please give examples from experience.


Now that you've recognized that the sound is just the sound, and the sensation is just sensation, let's look into the next deep source of illusion, the body. Does the body experience sensations and thought? Or Is the ‘body’ just another thought label for sensations?

Sit quietly for a few moments, then start noticing, please don't skip, try each one of these!

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ refer to?
What is the actual experience of the body?

Have fun with this, look with curiously and patiently, don't jump to a conclusion.
Reagrds
Ron

[Punjab1]

Good evening Ron

Happy new year to you!

You gave me lots of homework yesterday, Tried to look here are my findings:

Good, but did the thought cause the action?

I am still working on this one. I know thought doesn’t cause the action.
Action occurs, then a thought arrives stating Monika did it. For example after getting home from work, a change of clothing always occurs. Thereafter the thought labels the action that I (Monika) has changed.

. Does the body experience sensations and thought?

No, the body doesn’t experience sensation and thoughts.
Sensations just happen automatically like thoughts.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No, it can’t be known how tall the body is. Only thought comes and put the label about how tall or short the body is.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No, the body doesn’t have any weight or volume. Only thought comes and labels the weight.

In the actual experience does the body have shape or form?

In actual experience the body doesn’t have any shape or form, only thought(s) comes about shape and forms.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

I don’t feel any boundary between body and clothes.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No , there is no boundary between the body and chair, just sensations and thoughts that I am sitting on the chair.

I

s there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

Ron, I don’t know what you mean. When I look at something, it’s normally the thing. Then the thought labels that thing like inside the box or outside.

What does the word/label ‘body’ refer to?

I don’t know what to write, for an example if I have a headache, sensation felt and thought comes about that the head is hurting. So the head and pain is the label.
By the body being labelled means the body we identify as Monika.

What is the actual experience of the body?

The actual experience of body is the breathing, sensations,listening, smell and taste.

What I’ve written maybe wrong Ron, so I apologise if that’s the case.I’ve never really thought about the body in this way. But I am ready to explore. Please guide me

Many thanks

Monika

[Ronaldo]

Hello Monika,
Happy new year!

Your replies about the body are correct, but I want to be sure you are speaking from experience, e.g. when you say something like:
"No, the body doesn’t have any weight or volume. Only thought comes and labels the weight."
Do you actually notice the full range of sensation, and the labeling of the sensation with qualities like size, weight, etc?

Also you may have slightly missed the intention of this question:

R:Does the body experience sensations and thought?

M: No, the body doesn’t experience sensation and thoughts.
Sensations just happen automatically like thoughts.

Yes, sensations and thoughts just happen, but the question was rather, in direct experience, does the body sense, see, hears, thinks, or perhaps, there is no knowledge of a body with sight, sound, sensations and thinking?
Try it for yourself. In direct experience (without thoughts explanations):
Is hearing done through the ears?
Are sights seen through the eyes?


The question about inside and outside refers to what is considered inside "my body".
The question is again:
"Is there an inside or an outside [to the body]?"
Does sensation say what is inside the body, and what is outside the body? If you for example focus on breathing, heart beating, blood pumping - is it known that these are inside, and a sound of the refrigerator is coming from the outside?

Ron: What does the word/label ‘body’ refer to?

Monika: I don’t know what to write, for an example if I have a headache, sensation felt and thought comes about that the head is hurting. So the head and pain is the label.
By the body being labelled means the body we identify as Monika.

Pain is a type of sensation, isn't it? What is there to pain besides a sensation If you remove any thoughts saying "my pain", "horrible pain", "my head hurts"?
Try this: close your eyes and pinch your arm.
What is the the experience? Is this sensation coming from a body?

What is the experience of a head?
If looking in the mirror what is seen? Colours and shapes, correct? If using hands to feel, all there is is sensations.
And without touching there are sensations from other abstract parts like lips, nose, around the eyes, etc.

So, in other words, the label "body" refers to... a thought.

R: What is the actual experience of the body?

M: The actual experience of body is the breathing, sensations,listening, smell and taste.

What is the experience of breathing? Isn't breathing made entirely of sensations? Sensations in "nose", "throat", "ribcage", "abdomen" etc? "filling up with air" for example is not something you experience, it's a thought story.

If you've done each of the previous exercises, you should have noticed that all there is are sensations, colours, sounds.
Is there a body experienced directly?

I hope the examples I gave you will help demonstrate how you go about doing this investigation, how you de-construct what you consider "me" and "my body" into the actual experience, and then what thought stories claim. We are not rejecting the thoughts or going to war with thoughts. Thoughts will continue to come, continue to offer explanations, we only notice that, and say "yes" to what is appearing and to what is known.
By all means - please take your time and repeat these, it's worth every second of your time to be perfectly clear.

Monika, how are you feeling about your investigation so far? Besides the occasional frustration, are you experiencing any emotions when seeing these things?

Regards,
Ron