The Gate

Hi Dana,
I sent you a PM - please check the upper right corner where your user name is.

And yet when I tasted and bit into the orange it was much more real than the thought. I can’t describe it differently than how I described the thoughts because as we already said, words can’t capture the actual experience.
I can’t say the thought didn’t resemble the experience of eating the orange, but on the other hand I also want to say that it was nothing like it! Because the real experience is real and the thoughts aren’t.

Right, any words we use to describe things are tags, so the word “apple” is a tag to this indescribable experience of color, smells, tastes and sensations.  We are bound by the use of language when communicating and that is a clear obstacle, but what I’m trying to point to is the ACTUAL difference between the taste of an apple, and any taste-thought of an apple - not how well you can describe it in words - which you clearly can’t.  I think this point is clear, just wanted to reiterate :)

Thoughts do resemble the real thing, but most thoughts aren't actually about things ("it tastes bitter with a hint of cherry"), but about concepts and about other thoughts: "he was so rude!", "what should I do about this?", "I am already I late" - it's clearer to look at this with simple things to realize this.

Keep doing these all through the day, can you take a sip of cold/hot water without tags - just as a raw experience? 

Now let's take a deeper look at thoughts.
What is it exactly that you do in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?
Can you decide what thought will come next?
Can you stop a thought in the middle?
At what point do you know this is a thought?

Please read each question and see what is in your direct experience. Do it as many times as you need.
Let me know what you find,
Ron

Hi Ron! Hope you’re well.

what I’m trying to point to is the ACTUAL difference between the taste of an apple, and any taste-thought of an apple - not how well you can describe it in words - which you clearly can’t. I think this point is clear, just wanted to reiterate :)

Yes, got this, thanks!

Now let's take a deeper look at thoughts.
What is it exactly that you do in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?
Can you decide what thought will come next?
Can you stop a thought in the middle?
At what point do you know this is a thought?

It seems that “I” don’t do anything to think. Thoughts appear on their own. They just pop up.
There are thoughts that have an intention. For example, “I will now think of a yellow duck”. Then the next thought that pops up is a yellow duck. So there does seem to be a way to decide what my next thought will be. But the thing is that the thought that popped up before it, the one intending to think of a yellow duck, was not summoned by anyone. It just pops up.
I can stop a thought in the middle. I did this: I set a timer for ten seconds. In those ten seconds I tried my best to only think of a duck. Then when the timer rang I immediately switched my thought think of a cow (as I decided I would do beforehand). It worked. However, when I try to stop a thought in the middle on my own, it doesn’t seem to work. Because it’s all just thoughts. The thought stops when it stops and another interrupts it and “I” have no control over it.
I can’t really find the I that decides this. It’s just like this: there comes a thought out of nowhere saying “let’s think of a yellow duck”. Then there’s a thought of the duck. There isn’t a person deciding it. It’s a thought that leads to another thought.
And no, I can’t predict what the next thought is going to be because it’s all just thoughts that pop up. There’s no person to predict. When I try to predict, this is what happens:
“Okay, I’m going to predict the next thought.” (This one appeared as a result of me writing the last sentance).
“Hmm, maybe it’ll be about _____.”
And then I realize (another thought) that this thought^ just popped up, it was the next thought and I hadn’t predicted it. There is no way to predict the next thought. Sometimes, for short moments it seems like there is no person because when I try to predict thoughts I notice there’s no “I” to predict them, there’s just thoughts.
I assume this is what you’re trying point me towards. And it’s starting to become clearer. It’s still confusing. These thoughts have a very personal sense to them, like they’re “mine”.

Could you clarify the last question?

Also sorry if this was messy, it’s hard to talk about it in an organized way because it all seems connected. Also if I don’t respond shortly it’s because I’m taking my time with these and trying my best for them to sink in.

Have a great day,
Dana

Hi Dana,

For future reference, please try to quote each question and reply to it, it will make the reading easier.  If you're using a phone or tablet it could be cumbersome, I know, there is an app you can try which is LU-aware (aware... wow!) https://www.tapatalk.com

It seems that “I” don’t do anything to think. Thoughts appear on their own. They just pop up.

Exactly

There are thoughts that have an intention. For example, “I will now think of a yellow duck”. Then the next thought that pops up is a yellow duck. So there does seem to be a way to decide what my next thought will be. But the thing is that the thought that popped up before it, the one intending to think of a yellow duck, was not summoned by anyone. It just pops up.

Right, the original thought just appeared out of nowhere.
Did you ever try to say "let's talk about ducks" and the next thought is about eating cake? So it's not always the case, is it?

Yes, there is an appearance of thoughts leading to other thoughts, they do seem to create stories, don't they?
but can you find an actual link from one to another thought?
Or would it be more correct to say they each appear out of the blue, and sometimes tell a related story, maybe referring to a previous thought?
Either way, are you the creator of any of these thoughts? Do you have any control of the story they tell?
Does one thought know about the other, or know anything at all? Are they sentient?

I can stop a thought in the middle. I did this: I set a timer for ten seconds. In those ten seconds I tried my best to only think of a duck. Then when the timer rang I immediately switched my thought think of a cow (as I decided I would do beforehand). It worked.

You are describing a process where you 'decided' to think of ducks, and then decided to think about cows (nice choice of animals BTW) - so this does not sound like stopping a thought in the middle, I'm sure you didn't have a single 10 minute thought about ducks. Did you notice how long a thought seem to take? Each is usually less than a second, but there may be almost no noticeable gaps.

However, when I try to stop a thought in the middle on my own, it doesn’t seem to work. Because it’s all just thoughts. The thought stops when it stops and another interrupts it and “I” have no control over it.

Exactly!

I can’t really find the I that decides this. It’s just like this: there comes a thought out of nowhere saying “let’s think of a yellow duck”. Then there’s a thought of the duck. There isn’t a person deciding it. It’s a thought that leads to another thought.

Are you sure it's a thought that leads to another thought? Is this always the case?
To state this you have to actually find a link, not just base your statement on analysis = thoughts. If it's true find it, or it's nothing but speculation, right? We are after indisputable experiences, claims about what may be is not going to cut it here.

And no, I can’t predict what the next thought is going to be because it’s all just thoughts that pop up. There’s no person to predict. When I try to predict, this is what happens:
“Okay, I’m going to predict the next thought.” (This one appeared as a result of me writing the last sentance).
“Hmm, maybe it’ll be about _____.”
And then I realize (another thought) that this thought^ just popped up, it was the next thought and I hadn’t predicted it.
There is no way to predict the next thought.

Nice looking.

Sometimes, for short moments it seems like there is no person because when I try to predict thoughts I notice there’s no “I” to predict them, there’s just thoughts.
I assume this is what you’re trying point me towards. And it’s starting to become clearer. It’s still confusing. These thoughts have a very personal sense to them, like they’re “mine”.

Very nice, no need to try anticipate the point of pointing, only to follow it to where the pointing points (a new version of “How much wood could a woodchuck chuck" 😁). Yes, if you clearly see that there is no Dana there try these next:
What about when looking at a cup without tagging?
Tasting, smelling, sensing - is there a "Dana" there?
Try it, look at a glass of water for example, tags/thought will come up, but just ask yourself "what is this wonder?" and look for the answer... is there a Dana looking? or is there just what is seen?

Could you clarify the last question?

You mean "At what point do you know this is a thought?" - when "inside" the content of the thought - do you know it's a thought? Or do you know it was a thought when another thought says "ah, that was a thought!" or just tags it "thought"?

Can you have no thoughts at all? If so, how do you do it?
Can you only have pleasant thoughts, say for only 10 minutes?

Could it be that sometimes you have control over thoughts, and sometimes you don't? Or only thought says sometimes you do?

Is there any doubts about Dana actually controlling thoughts?
How does it feel to see this? (not a pointer, I want to know how you feel about this)

Let me know :)
Ron

Hey Ron!

For future reference, please try to quote each question and reply to it, it will make the reading easier. If you're using a phone or tablet it could be cumbersome, I know, there is an app you can try which is LU-aware (aware... wow!) https://www.tapatalk.com

Yup, I’ll do that. Sorry about that :)

can you find an actual link from one to another thought?

No I can’t find something that connects them in a definite way. They just come up into my experience. Sometimes they’re connected to what I previously thought and sometimes they’re random.
What I do find is that they have control over my attention, even if it’s just for very short periods of time. For example if someone is talking and I’m thinking (daydreaming) and I become aware my attention isn’t on him, I may have a thought “ok I’m gonna listen to him now”. Then my attention will be on him for a short while. And I won’t have any thoughts, just listening to him. This is exactly what I don’t understand- intention. Thoughts do seem to have results. And yet they aren’t anything more than words or pictures popping up into my experience.

Also control over actions. This is also intention. I don’t understand it because my actions seem to be influenced by thoughts but what actually makes them from a thought into action?

Either way, are you the creator of any of these thoughts? Do you have any control of the story they tell?

No. It seems like there’s a person deciding them but when I observe each one specifically I see that if just comes up.
Who am I talking about when I say “I see”?
I think it’s like this: I have an experience. Someone. I don’t know who but there’s an experience occurring. Thoughts come into it and for a second I’m just observing them, until a thought comes in and says “I’m observing this thought”. But this is just another thought and can’t observe anything.

Does one thought know about the other, or know anything at all? Are they sentient?

No, they’re just thoughts.

Are you sure it's a thought that leads to another thought? Is this always the case?

This isn’t always the case. But there is a pattern. I get the fact that it has to be my experience, since that’s the only truth I know for sure. But it does leave me thinking there is a link somehow since it’s not all completely random. There isn’t a link that decides the thoughts, more like somehow a system that points them. That’s what it seems like, although from my actual experience there is nothing like that. It’s all just thoughts popping up out of nowhere that, as you said, sometimes follow the same storyline.

You are describing a process where you 'decided' to think of ducks, and then decided to think about cows (nice choice of animals BTW) - so this does not sound like stopping a thought in the middle, I'm sure you didn't have a single 10 minute thought about ducks. Did you notice how long a thought seem to take? Each is usually less than a second, but there may be almost no noticeable gaps.

It seems that when I try to stop thoughts what happens is there’s a thought before it that says “I’m gonna stop the next thought in the middle. Then there’s a next thought and then I’m pretty sure it gets interrupted by a tiny thought which is really hard to notice but sometimes I do, which says “I’m gonna stop this now”. (It already stopped it!) and then the other thought stops in the middle. This is all very confusing and hard to observe because it’s happening so fast. But I’m pretty sure this is what happens.

Even in all of these, it seems that I have control over observing and my attention. Like there’s a difference between times when I’ve decided I’m going to observe my thoughts and when I’m completely in them. I don’t understand this phenomenon. Who decides if I’m observing closely? Is this a thought? It doesn’t seem like one.

You mean "At what point do you know this is a thought?" - when "inside" the content of the thought - do you know it's a thought? Or do you know it was a thought when another thought says "ah, that was a thought!" or just tags it "thought"?

I think I’m aware or the fact that I’m experiencing a thought when there’s sort of a switch, maybe initiated by a tiny thought that I didn’t notice, in my attention. The switch is from what the thought’s “saying” to just being aware of the fact that I’m having a thought. During this time it does seem that true thought continues and I’m aware I’m thinking.

Yes, if you clearly see that there is no Dana there try these next:
What about when looking at a cup without tagging?
Tasting, smelling, sensing - is there a "Dana" there?

I don’t know if I clearly see it yet. Sometimes, I think :)
No, there’s just experience. I’m aware of a body, sensations and the senses. And that’s it.

Try it, look at a glass of water for example, tags/thought will come up, but just ask yourself "what is this wonder?" and look for the answer... is there a Dana looking? or is there just what is seen?

Did you mean water instead of wonder?
Yes, I see. There’s just the experience of what’s happening, there’s no “person”.

I will leave the rest of the questions for tomorrow so I’ll be able to give them my full focus.

Dana :-)

Hi Dana,
OK, I'll be waiting for the rest. To answer your question:

R: Try it, look at a glass of water for example, tags/thought will come up, but just ask yourself "what is this wonder?" and look for the answer... is there a Dana looking? or is there just what is seen?

D: Did you mean water instead of wonder?

No, I meant wonder ☺️
Is that thing in the glass "water"? Water is a tag and it points to this wonder, magical thing that you can never understand. So rather than trying to understand it, try to really see it, there is just what is seen, taste it, and there is just the taste and sensation which are again, ineffable.

Catch you tomorrow
Ron

Can you have no thoughts at all? If so, how do you do it?

When I try, a thought comes up after less than a second. Sometimes they’re very quick and hard to notice and sometimes they’re clear.
But yes, I can seem to do it for a very very short period of time. This is what happens:
A thought comes up, maybe from reading your instruction: “ok I’m not thinking now 3,2,1.” Then for a tiny moment there’s no thoughts, and then what I described above.

Can you only have pleasant thoughts, say for only 10 minutes?

No, not even ten seconds.

Could it be that sometimes you have control over thoughts, and sometimes you don't? Or only thought says sometimes you do?

There is no one controlling the thoughts. They come up on their own. Sometimes they have a sense of identity to them. And they say “ok I want to think about ducks now”. And then there are thoughts about ducks, for a second and then there are different thoughts again without anyone deciding it. But there is a sense of control like I mentioned above but for a very short period.
But also, it’s not always the case. I can’t always have a thought “let’s think of a duck” and ALWAYS the next thought, a duck will be there. Sometimes this thought that seems to decide doesn’t really decide. I see this.
It’s still confusing though because there is a pattern and i don’t understand what creates it.

Is there any doubts about Dana actually controlling thoughts?

There is still a bit of confusion regarding what I wrote above.
But other than that, no, because thoughts can’t be controlled and even when they seem like there are being, that’s not always the case, which means there isn’t anyone there who decides them.
When I’m just experiencing something, in my experience there is no “Dana”. Because Dana is just a thought.
But I am still there.

How does it feel to see this? (not a pointer, I want to know how you feel about this)

I feel that I do see that I have no control over my thoughts but not the fact that “Dana” doesn’t exist quite as clearly yet. Even though I get that Dana is just a thought it hasn’t sunk in yet.
In the times when it’s clear, it’s very freeing and it amazes me. It’s also kind of weird. But mostly amazing, realizing thoughts were always happening spontaneously and me thinking it wasn’t, was also happening spontaneously. Takes a lot of pressure off, too. But also a lot of questions still which I’m not sure what they are yet, other than the ones I already wrote.

And this one:
If I decide that for a whole day, whenever I have a thought of a duck I will clap my hand. Then I go on with my day, and in the middle of it I think of a duck, then another thought comes up that realizes it was the duck and I clap my hand.
It seems like the “deciding to be aware of duck thoughts” thought is always there and it almost doesn’t seem like a thought. What do you think?

~Dana (or maybe not?😹)

Hi Dana :)

You're asking great questions. I'm going to answer most or all of the questions, but I'd like to refocus the inquiry into fewer topics at a time. Please pause and ask each question, but only answer back the questions in blue.

my actions seem to be influenced by thoughts but what actually makes them from a thought into action?

Indeed, "seem" is the right observation, but does it stand scrutiny of direct experience? This can be observed. One key point is that either they do, or they don't, if you find that sometimes they seem to... what about all the other times they don't? Is it possible that action is just happening and thoughts claim they caused or planned the action?

When you take a shower, notice how the hands performs pretty complex tasks, without any direction of thought. The action is not exactly the same, not repetitive, it changes and varies every time. Washing the body, the hair, is there thought proceeding each action?

When eating, is there guidance of thought? Or when eating thoughts chatter about whatever? You cannot have more than one thought occurring at a time, can you?

What about if a thought says "Time to eat!", will eating happen? Always?
If eating does happen, are you sure it's the thought that caused the eating? Seems that way... but did you ever find yourself chewing on a bag of potato chips or whatever?

Don't take my words for any of this, observe it, be certain this is correct.
Also don't go into thoughts and explanations - trust your direct experience and not the stories thoughts say.
It takes some relaxation to just allow what is obvious to be trusted.

What is your conclusion then?

What I do find is that they [thoughts] have control over my attention

How do you know this to be true? Is there a you that has attention, or is attention something that just shifts and changes all the time? It's simple, sit for 10 minutes and focus on breathing, the attention will shift from sensations to thoughts to sounds and sights and thoughts and thoughts again... is attention something Dana controls? Or attention happens and shifts, no controller, no doer at all? If Dana IS the controller of attention, why does it shift when you want it to stay put? Fact is, attention is just as controllable as thoughts are...

Are thoughts controlling a process, or it's a thought story: "I am focusing on my breath" after focusing on the breath already occurred? Notice carefully how often the thought will come after the action and explain it.
Do you know what your hands are doing/where are they resting right now?
Only when there is noticing, there is a thought claiming "it's more comfortable this way", but was there a controller? Watch closely, do thoughts actually do anything or do they come and say "I caused that".

No. It seems like there’s a person deciding them but when I observe each one specifically I see that if just comes up.

Right.

Who am I talking about when I say “I see”?
I think it’s like this: I have an experience. Someone. I don’t know who but there’s an experience occurring. Thoughts come into it and for a second I’m just observing them, until a thought comes in and says “I’m observing this thought”. But this is just another thought and can’t observe anything.

Is there an I that observes thoughts and images and sounds? Or could this be a belief, a thought story?
Can an "I" be found? Can a thinker and an attention shifter be found?
What if there are just the sounds and visions and sensations and thoughts?
The experience of sounds and sensations and thoughts alone.

it seems that I have control over observing and my attention. Like there’s a difference between times when I’ve decided I’m going to observe my thoughts and when I’m completely in them. I don’t understand this phenomenon. Who decides if I’m observing closely? Is this a thought? It doesn’t seem like one.

I discussed most of this above, but why do you assume someone needs to direct attention? There is no real person Dana who directs attention, thinks, acts, looks, there has never been one, yet this all happens.
Yes, there is a body with a tag "Dana" there are lots and lots of thoughts and stories about that Dana character, but where exactly is Dana? Can you point a finger where is this I exactly? Where are the thoughts coming from? Pointing to the head is just a belief isn't it?
You've already seen that you can't birth thoughts, you cannot think at all! Thought appear, it happens, just like a sight happens and a sound happens - a thought happens, attention happens.

R: Can you have no thoughts at all? If so, how do you do it?

D: yes, I can seem to do it for a very very short period of time. This is what happens:
A thought comes up, maybe from reading your instruction: “ok I’m not thinking now 3,2,1.” Then for a tiny moment there’s no thoughts, and then what I described above.

Attention shifting from thought ("3, 2, 1") to something else, like sensation for a short duration, than thought comes again, that is DE. The appearance of control is just the story of the thought, why can't you stop it or control the duration of no thoughts?

Can you only have pleasant thoughts, say for only 10 minutes?

No, not even ten seconds.

😔 comon..

But there is a sense of control like I mentioned above but for a very short period.
But also, it’s not always the case. I can’t always have a thought “let’s think of a duck” and ALWAYS the next thought, a duck will be there. Sometimes this thought that seems to decide doesn’t really decide. I see this.
It’s still confusing though because there is a pattern and i don’t understand what creates it.

Nice, yes, thoughts create the illusion of a controller and a thinker and decider - like a 5 year old riding a bike "look at me!" There seems to be a pattern, but is there a controller of the pattern? We could go and speculate "how was this pattern created?" but here we cannot go into thoughts explaining and theorizing because no truth can come out of it, no seeing will occur by thinking (thoughts) because thought are creating the illusion.

Take an ant, no thoughts there, right? Yet the ant builds nests, finds new paths, communicates with others, have a hierarchy of ranks, etc. etc. Is that so different than humans?
Is it possible that thought are a layer of stories that do nothing at all except come up with explanations and stories?

thought is always there and it almost doesn’t seem like a thought. What do you think?

When the dream of thoughts is dense enough - there isn't enough gaps to even notice them... this is almost the norm.
That's why it's important to insert moments of attention, focusing on other things as we discussed. Is that something you can decide to do, or will this just maybe happen?

I look forward to what you discover next.
I really gave you a lot of pointers, I think you should take a couple of days for it 😎
Ron

Hey Ron :)
Still working on it. This isn’t my official reply to the last one you sent, but i have two questions that’ll help me continue.
I see that many of my actions don’t have anything to do with thoughts that caused them.
But when I think “I’m gonna move my hand” and actually MEAN it, with intention, it happens.
Even though I see it’s not the actual thought that did that, the action is connected to the thought about moving the hand and that’s why I can’t say that actions just happen on their own. Thoughts do have an influence on actions.
What do you think in reference to this inquiry?
Also, how do I “watch” my actions and what makes them happen? It’s pretty hard, it was clearer with thoughts. It works when the actions are automatic, like if I’m just talking and words are coming out of my mouth, or showering, like you said. But its hard when it’s actions that occur after thoughts, like I mentioned above.
Any tips?

Thanks,
Dana

Hey Dana, why are you still up? :)
I hope you're home for the weekend!

I see that many of my actions don’t have anything to do with thoughts that caused them.
But when I think “I’m gonna move my hand” and actually MEAN it, with intention, it happens.
Even though I see it’s not the actual thought that did that, the action is connected to the thought about moving the hand and that’s why I can’t say that actions just happen on their own. Thoughts do have an influence on actions.
What do you think in reference to this inquiry?

I think it's great that you're not taking my word for it :) If you need to experience it 1000 times, than that's what it will take.

So from a purely logical standpoint does it makes sense to you that most actions are automatic, but some are controlled? And what takes and gives that control sometimes and not other times? Did you ever find something called "intention" available or not available to you? What would hand you that intention? See the paradox? Wouldn't it be far more in alignment with experience to say that intention comes and goes when it does?

Clearly, you don't claim control over digestion, sweating, immune system, pumping blood, growing hair and nails, but you do claim control over things like driving a car while singing with the radio, or dancing, why is that? Because there are no thoughts about them, there are far less or no sensation involved unless something goes wrong.

The illusion that thought play require watching many times, they are both easy to spot and not so easy, and as you turn into more complex scenarios, so it gets trickier to see with clarity. No amount of explanation or debate will do the trick here, doubt comes from thoughts and you either learn to trust your actual experience, or keep believing in thought stories.

What you may be missing here is what you called "with intention" as I discussed above. Try this instead: put your palm facing up, and only curl one finger each time (any finger), watch what is the difference of moving them with intention and then without intention, switch moving them with intention and without intention (but move them). Do you find a real difference? When you find yourself thinking about "blah", and your fingers keep moving - does intention moves them, or they just move? How is this intention controlled? Does intention affect action, or is that just something thought claims "I'm moving the 3rd finger now" but the movement just happens?

So, two things here - is intention something Dana controls, and is intention even required for action, for doing anything?
If Dana is the controller of intention, there needs to be a faculty that can be turned on and off - is there one?
And does anything that the body does is controlled and preceded with thought (via intention) is another question.
Look in direct experience, without the tales that thoughts tell, that is what's real.

Also, how do I “watch” my actions and what makes them happen? It’s pretty hard, it was clearer with thoughts. It works when the actions are automatic, like if I’m just talking and words are coming out of my mouth, or showering, like you said. But its hard when it’s actions that occur after thoughts, like I mentioned above.

We're not asking what makes them happen, we're are asking is there is a controller that can be found? So anytime awareness of action that is taking place right now arises - look, was it planned, proceeded by a thought? Are you choosing it? Do you control the movement etc?

Direct experience is real - water feels wet, thought content is not a real experience, the word "water" or the imagination of it is not wet, you can see that with every single thought. You have to see the fallacy of the belief in being the thinker and controller and doer - that Dana is running the show. Trust what is observed in direct experience, the thoughts are about Dana, but Dana is not the one having any thoughts, Dana is a fiction only existing in thoughts about Dana.
Where is Dana, can you find her?

I hope this is of some help
I think we need to add another day,
Night :)
Ron

Hi Ron!
Haha, yes I’ve been going to sleep late.
I’m really busy for the next couple days sadly. My schedule is not up to me.
But this is very important to me and I want to keep inquiring so just right now I’m going to partially respond to your last messages, and ask some questions, so that I can keep watching my experience throughout the day with more clarity. Hope that’s alright. Also I really appreciate how much effort you put into the messages and how you make sure to explain it clearly and in depth.

So:
I see that no one controls thoughts.
I see that many actions don’t happen as a result of any thought.
But, when I have a thought “I’m gonna raise my foot” it doesn’t necessarily happen. And then the same thought, but with a knowing that I’m actually gonna raise it, and it raises.
So, from my direct experience, it seems like:
1. The thought of raising the foot is what, not necessarily led, but affected the foot rising. Like, if that thought didn’t happen the foot wouldn’t have been raised. Some action is affected by the thoughts that are before it, it’s not completely random.
2. I don’t know who controls “intention”, just like thoughts it seems like it just comes up, but also that it does control action. For example, if I take the experiment with the hand that you said: when I curl my fingers with an intention I can control how they’ll curl, and without, when I’m thinking “blah” they move in a more random way.

Do you think I should focus more on seeing if someone is controlling intention rather than if intention control action?

Gn :)
Dana

Hi Dana!

Thanks for letting me know, and thank you for the comments :) Take your time, I really overloaded you with pointers because your questions were good and I want you to get it. I think if you re-read the past few posts and redo the exercise, it's valuable.

We are looking at experience and the main tool is posing a question, and in the gap between the end of that question and the next thought - something happens, something either shows or doesn't. Did you ever notice that anytime you had a "a-ha!" moment, it was not an outcome of intensive thought activity, It came from silence, from nowhere and between thoughts.

Other than the queries, I sometimes add an exercise, but the purpose here is similar - observation, not thought analysis.
I think you are trying to approach this too much as an experiment that must have perfect concordance and outcome, it's just not going to work on that level, it's enough to doubt what you always assumed to be 100% true .
You don't have to be fully convinced at this point that a thought can never cause action, this is actually fairly advance and not required. What is critical is the question of control.

So let's delay any inquiry that is about cause and effect, and focus on figuring out if you are you the thinker of thoughts and doer of actions? We can even assume for simplicity that thought does cause action, so what?

Do you have control of thought? Yes, there is an appearance of control.
What is intension? A decision to act or do, right? is intension an entity you can find? Or is intention a thought? "I want to eat now", "I should be more patient", the thought projects an intension, but are you the creator of that thought? Isn't it exactly like other thoughts? I know what you're thinking - but does a thought lead to another thought? OK, so there are patterns of thoughts, are the patterns your creation, did you ever have a choice in creating the patterns you want?

Take some time, pose a question, don't go into thinking and analysis...
Have a good rest of weekend :)

Ron

Thanks, this is clearer. I’ll keep looking, chat soon :)
Dana

Hi Ron!
I’ve had a very busy week and I see why having a relatively quiet mind is important for Looking. It was hard to remember to do it while I had things to get done all the time.
But I did partly, and I see that everything is just happening. Most of the words I say and actions I do are not are planned, they just occur and come out of me. And then the actions that are from thoughts, the thoughts themselves do have a personal sense and seem like I planned them, but really they just occur as well.
What I think would help me see it clearer is questions/pointers like you said to me “can you predict the next thought?” These really make it clearer.
What do you think is next?
Hope you’ll have a good weekend :)
Dana

Hey there Dana,
Yes, busy lifestyle makes it harder to look, but I'm glad you've seen this.
Did this cause any emotions to realize you're not the thinker of thoughts?
Do you still doubt if actions are just happening or if they are an outcome of your desire and plans?

Please tell me.

Some pointers are easier to see than others, and some things are easier to depict via some action, I also like that one :)

Do you have a sense of "I am"?
Where are you located?


Regards,
Ron

Yes, the emotions that arise are really weird. It’s an identity crisis. I don’t know who I am (in the times when it’s clear that I’m not the controller and there is no controller). It’s kind of an empty and lost feeling.
I think I do doubt it because there are times when it still seems like there is a thought I thought and then an action that was a result of the thought. And it feels like my doing. But this is only when I don’t look closely and am absorbed in all of it. When I’m able to concentrate on looking I can’t find the controller.
There is also intention which is seems like I have control over but then again who controls the thought that made intention happen?
I think I just need to spend some more time looking and observe with guiding questions in mind and it will become clearer.
My sense of “I am” does exist, and it comes just from the place of... I’m here. I am experiencing this, that I know for sure. I am here. Other than that I don’t have a sense of me, when I really look.
I can’t locate when I am, it’s just the actual experience. Like, I know I’m here because I am experiencing this. But I can’t locate it.
What’s next? What should I do for it to be clearer?
Dana :-)