Hi Dana :)
You're asking great questions. I'm going to answer most or all of the questions, but I'd like to refocus the inquiry into fewer topics at a time. Please pause and ask each question, but only answer back the questions in blue.
my actions seem to be influenced by thoughts but what actually makes them from a thought into action?
Indeed, "seem" is the right observation, but does it stand scrutiny of direct experience? This can be observed. One key point is that either they do, or they don't, if you find that sometimes they seem to... what about all the other times they don't? Is it possible that action is just happening and thoughts claim they caused or planned the action?
When you take a shower, notice how the hands performs pretty complex tasks, without any direction of thought. The action is not exactly the same, not repetitive, it changes and varies every time. Washing the body, the hair, is there thought proceeding each action?
When eating, is there guidance of thought? Or when eating thoughts chatter about whatever? You cannot have more than one thought occurring at a time, can you?
What about if a thought says "Time to eat!", will eating happen? Always?
If eating does happen, are you sure it's the thought that caused the eating? Seems that way... but did you ever find yourself chewing on a bag of potato chips or whatever?
Don't take my words for any of this, observe it, be certain this is correct.
Also don't go into thoughts and explanations - trust your direct experience and not the stories thoughts say.
It takes some relaxation to just allow what is obvious to be trusted.
What is your conclusion then?
What I do find is that they [thoughts] have control over my attention
How do you know this to be true? Is there a you that has attention, or is attention something that just shifts and changes all the time? It's simple, sit for 10 minutes and focus on breathing, the attention will shift from sensations to thoughts to sounds and sights and thoughts and thoughts again... is attention something Dana controls? Or attention happens and shifts, no controller, no doer at all? If Dana IS the controller of attention, why does it shift when you want it to stay put? Fact is, attention is just as controllable as thoughts are...
Are thoughts controlling a process, or it's a thought story: "I am focusing on my breath" after focusing on the breath already occurred? Notice carefully how often the thought will come after the action and explain it.
Do you know what your hands are doing/where are they resting right now?
Only when there is noticing, there is a thought claiming "it's more comfortable this way", but was there a controller? Watch closely,
do thoughts actually do anything or do they come and say "I caused that".
No. It seems like there’s a person deciding them but when I observe each one specifically I see that if just comes up.
Right.
Who am I talking about when I say “I see”?
I think it’s like this: I have an experience. Someone. I don’t know who but there’s an experience occurring. Thoughts come into it and for a second I’m just observing them, until a thought comes in and says “I’m observing this thought”. But this is just another thought and can’t observe anything.
Is there an I that observes thoughts and images and sounds? Or could this be a belief, a thought story?
Can an "I" be found? Can a thinker and an attention shifter be found?
What if there are just the sounds and visions and sensations and thoughts?
The experience of sounds and sensations and thoughts alone.
it seems that I have control over observing and my attention. Like there’s a difference between times when I’ve decided I’m going to observe my thoughts and when I’m completely in them. I don’t understand this phenomenon. Who decides if I’m observing closely? Is this a thought? It doesn’t seem like one.
I discussed most of this above, but why do you assume someone needs to direct attention? There is no real person Dana who directs attention, thinks, acts, looks, there has never been one, yet this all happens.
Yes, there is a body with a tag "Dana" there are lots and lots of thoughts and stories about that Dana character, but where exactly is Dana? Can you point a finger where is this I exactly? Where are the thoughts coming from? Pointing to the head is just a belief isn't it?
You've already seen that you can't birth thoughts, you cannot think at all! Thought appear, it happens, just like a sight happens and a sound happens - a thought happens, attention happens.
R: Can you have no thoughts at all? If so, how do you do it?
D: yes, I can seem to do it for a very very short period of time. This is what happens:
A thought comes up, maybe from reading your instruction: “ok I’m not thinking now 3,2,1.” Then for a tiny moment there’s no thoughts, and then what I described above.
Attention shifting from thought ("3, 2, 1") to something else, like sensation for a short duration, than thought comes again, that is DE. The appearance of control is just the story of the thought, why can't you stop it or control the duration of no thoughts?
Can you only have pleasant thoughts, say for only 10 minutes?
No, not even ten seconds.
😔 comon..
But there is a sense of control like I mentioned above but for a very short period.
But also, it’s not always the case. I can’t always have a thought “let’s think of a duck” and ALWAYS the next thought, a duck will be there. Sometimes this thought that seems to decide doesn’t really decide. I see this.
It’s still confusing though because there is a pattern and i don’t understand what creates it.
Nice, yes, thoughts create the illusion of a controller and a thinker and decider - like a 5 year old riding a bike "look at me!" There seems to be a pattern, but is there a controller of the pattern? We could go and speculate "how was this pattern created?" but here we cannot go into thoughts explaining and theorizing because no truth can come out of it, no seeing will occur by thinking (thoughts) because thought are creating the illusion.
Take an ant, no thoughts there, right? Yet the ant builds nests, finds new paths, communicates with others, have a hierarchy of ranks, etc. etc. Is that so different than humans?
Is it possible that thought are a layer of stories that do nothing at all except come up with explanations and stories?
thought is always there and it almost doesn’t seem like a thought. What do you think?
When the dream of thoughts is dense enough - there isn't enough gaps to even notice them... this is almost the norm.
That's why it's important to insert moments of attention, focusing on other things as we discussed. Is that something you can decide to do, or will this just maybe happen?
I look forward to what you discover next.
I really gave you a lot of pointers, I think you should take a couple of days for it 😎
Ron
