Is there something more to be seen

[Vivien]

Hi Kamen,

V: So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value.

K: Here if I think about what I see, I will see different objects, which is not an AE. Is the AE + the lables from the past.
How can you comment on this?

Let’s say there is a thought table. That thought is a concept / label, but it’s pointing to something that is actually experienced. That ‘think’ can be seen, felt, smelled, even tasted and heard if you knock it.

So the word ‘table’ is pointing to something that is experienced here now.

Let me put it in more simple terms.

LOOKING is becoming aware of actual experience (AE). ‘Looking’ is just plain looking – noticing the raw experience of just colour, sound, smell, sensation and taste, in the present moment and noticing the labels and thoughts about the raw experience.

V: Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

K: I am not sure if I can be 100% sure even by looking, as the senses are limited as well.

Please read my previous post very carefully again.

In what other ways could you be certain what colors your socks are, or what is the weather like other than LOOKING and SEEING it in experience?

I'll do this and come to you again. Just wanted to ask you the questions about putting labels on everything in the NOW which are from the past.

Forget about the past for now, that is just more story.


Vivien

[Kamenkr]

Hi Vivien,

V: So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value.

K: Here if I think about what I see, I will see different objects, which is not an AE. Is the AE + the lables from the past.
How can you comment on this?

V: Let’s say there is a thought table. That thought is a concept / label, but it’s pointing to something that is actually experienced. That ‘think’ can be seen, felt, smelled, even tasted and heard if you knock it.

Yes, I understand this.

V: Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

K: I am not sure if I can be 100% sure even by looking, as the senses are limited as well.

V:Please read my previous post very carefully again.

I thought, that you ment LOOKING with the physical eyes, and not the AE. I red it again and I know now, that you mean just the looking. It could be with closed eyes. Looking what is experienced right now, without referring to past moments or other lables. Completely agree.

Vivien, I think I got what you mean. There has been a subtle separation. Feeling that really that I am the awareness somehow. I dropped this. In the actual experience it is just... life. And things like "destroying habits" can not exist, because there is no entity that has habits. Fears and other feeling (atleast today) are at best slight sensations and nothing more.

Now, on these similar lines, turn towards this seeming ego, and describe it

I can not. There is no such a thing. Or actually I feel this like a sensation that is floating around, in the present moment.

Where is this ego exactly?

I tryed to find it, but I can not. It just makes some sensation like a vibration.

How big it is?
What color it has? Shape? Size? Texture?

Again, it is impossible to see it.

And this awareness, I think I really somehow intellectualized it.

This discovery makes everything lighter and more simple.

Thank you very much.

Kamen

[Vivien]

Hi Kamen,

And this awareness, I think I really somehow intellectualized it.

Yes, it seems so.

Is it possible that the reason that you cannot find the ego is because there is no such thing as an ego (other than an idea)?

And what about mind? Is there an actual mind where thoughts come from?
Is there a mind outside of thoughts that talk about one?

Please make sure that you check it in experience, and don’t just think about the answers.

Let’s start investigating thoughts.

Generally there seem to be two kinds of thoughts:
1. thoughts which content point to something which is directly experienced, now in the moment.
2. thoughts which content point to nothing in DE (direct experience), rather to other thoughts content.

#1 would be ‘There is a table’, or ‘my hands are wet’, or ‘the flower is blooming’ - since something is SEEN at the moment, the thought points to something, even though table / hand / flower is just a label for something SEEN / EXPERIENCED.

#2 would be "I had dinner last night”, or “she said something nasty to me”, or “I want to be free”, or “I am going to do some shopping tomorrow”, etc.

Now please, gently observe your thoughts, noticing how do their thing, chatting about this and about that, labelling, interpreting, giving meaning to events and things, analysing how things could have done differently, and so on.
While noticing the dance of thoughts, how they go around in loops trying to find verification for their own self-appointed truth…. check for yourself if the above given statement is true.

Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more? If yes, please do give an example.
Does one set of thoughts point to something in DE and does the other one really points to another thought only?

Please spend a whole day looking at this. Check this again and again throughout your day.

Vivien

[Kamenkr]

Hello Vivien,

Please spend a whole day looking at this. Check this again and again throughout your day.

I have been doing this the whole day.

Is it possible that the reason that you cannot find the ego is because there is no such thing as an ego (other than an idea)?

I check and check and check for it everytime, but really I can not find it. I sometimes get my biggest fears and ask "who fears them", but I can not either find an ego.

And what about mind? Is there an actual mind where thoughts come from?

As we already said - what we call "mind" is the totality of the non stop popping lables or clusters of lables.

Is there a mind outside of thoughts that talk about one?

No thougts, no mind.

Please make sure that you check it in experience, and don’t just think about the answers.

I always check many times from experience, but sometimes some thoughts are reeealy subtle.

Now please, gently observe your thoughts, noticing how do their thing, chatting about this and about that, labelling, interpreting, giving meaning to events and things, analysing how things could have done differently, and so on.

I do this everyday many hours. Even in my sleep somehow.

Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more? If yes, please do give an example. Does one set of thoughts point to something in DE and does the other one really points to another thought only?

Not sure if you wanted me to spend only for this the whole day or for everything.
As till now I can not find another group of thoughts, but those thoughts could be divided in subgroups, for example,
the Non DE thoughts could be divided in groups - from the past and from the future. The thoughts past and future are again thoughts.
I can not find another type of thoughts, but what I see, is that thoughts (especially non DE) are actualy many and not a single one. Many, many layers of thoughts. Sometimes I feel they are on a base of hundred and even thousand of thoughts.

The DE thoughts come also in groups. For example, a dog is barking. The thoughts here are - animal, dog, I love dogs, my wife love dogs, barking, place of barking and so on... They come faster than a lighting together.

Thank you,

Kamen

Another think I see, as mentioned before, is that the DE thoughts come

[Vivien]

Hi Kamen,

Not sure if you wanted me to spend only for this the whole day or for everything.

Every post I give you is meant to be looked at for a whole day, repeatedly again and again, even if the answer seems to be pretty clear (50-100 times a day). Repetition which helps to bring about any realization.

And there is much more to realize than seen that there is no separate self. That’s really just step 1. There are many other beliefs that can hold the structure in place. That's why we are investigating the story.

I check and check and check for it everytime, but really I can not find it. I sometimes get my biggest fears and ask "who fears them", but I can not either find an ego.

What is the fearful story about there being no actual ego?
If there is no real ego, then what does this tell about you?

Dig deep.

As we already said - what we call "mind" is the totality of the non stop popping lables or clusters of lables.

But labels are thoughts, aren’t they?
And the totality of labels are just more thoughts, right?

But thoughts or the totality of thoughts are NOT a mind. Can you see this clearly?
And is there such thing as ‘totality of thoughts or labels’? Or is this just a story provided by a thought?

Can the TOTALITY of thoughts be experienced? Can there be more than one thought at a time?

Check, if there are thoughts might say that it’s so boring to look things again and again. They might even claim that “I already know that there is no mind, I ALREADY know it.”. If these thoughts come up, just notice that these claims on behalf of a me.

Watch out for these. When these thoughts are taken as face value, they can prevent repeated looking/investigation.
I’m not saying you have these thoughts, but they can appear at any time during the investigation.

As till now I can not find another group of thoughts, but those thoughts could be divided in subgroups, for example,
the Non DE thoughts could be divided in groups - from the past and from the future. The thoughts past and future are again thoughts.
I can not find another type of thoughts, but what I see, is that thoughts (especially non DE) are actualy many and not a single one. Many, many layers of thoughts. Sometimes I feel they are on a base of hundred and even thousand of thoughts.

The DE thoughts come also in groups. For example, a dog is barking. The thoughts here are - animal, dog, I love dogs, my wife love dogs, barking, place of barking and so on... They come faster than a lighting together.

The point of this exercise wasn’t about categorizing thoughts, although thoughts happily do that! They strive on categorization and analysis :)

The point was to help to differentiate what is actually experienced, and what is just a story ABOUT what is going on. To discern between real and fiction. To see that most of our thoughts have nothing to do with reality. They are almost constantly talking about something, which is more often than not is totally out of line with how things actually are. Thoughts almost create a virtual reality :) if we cannot see them for being only thoughts in the moment when they appear.

So it’s not just about observing thoughts, but seeing that the thought content is never ever a reality. To learn to discern between reality/experience and fiction.

Just notice thoughts; how much narration is going on. Whatever is happening thought has something to say about it. It’s constantly weaving stories about everything and everyone.

The story is so well run; the mechanisms are all in place. Thoughts have the tendency to appear as solid truths and it is so enticing to believe each and every one of them.

But are all of our thoughts depicting what is?

Some thoughts point to something, like ‘seeing something’ but other thoughts just point to more thoughts, exploding in a thought merry-go-round. :)

What if instead of thoughts offering solid truths, those explanations are nothing but assumptions? Theories at best?

Vivien

[Kamenkr]

Hello vivien,

Every post I give you is meant to be looked at for a whole day, repeatedly again and again, even if the answer seems to be pretty clear (50-100 times a day)

Yes, i just ment this only single question, but nevermind. I understand what you say.

What is the fearful story about there being no actual ego? If there is no real ego, then what does this tell about you?

The fearful story is not about having no Ego. I do not have fear. But I have always had deep fear from death and illnes, mainly death, maybe thats why I decided to seek the "truth". So eventhough I know I am not the ego, this fear comes sometimes. It is much weaker than before. I just wanted to make you know this. This fear of death and knowing that there will be death of the body in some moment is greater than the fear of loosing the ego.

But labels are thoughts, aren’t they?

Yes.

And the totality of labels are just more thoughts, right?

Yes.

But thoughts or the totality of thoughts are NOT a mind. Can you see this clearly?

Yes, I see this clearly. They are just pretty fast and pretty much and come looking like one thing, but they are separate and can not be "MIND". I understand you.

And is there such thing as ‘totality of thoughts or labels’? Or is this just a story provided by a thought

Yes, it is just a story and only the answer of your previous question.

Check, if there are thoughts might say that it’s so boring to look things again and again. They might even claim that “I already know that there is no mind, I ALREADY know it. ”Watch out for these. When these thoughts are taken as face value, they can prevent repeated looking/investigation.

I will try to watch out for such kind a thoughts.

So it’s not just about observing thoughts, but seeing that the thought content is never ever a reality. To learn to discern between reality/experience and fiction.

Wonderful. Right. When I am "Myself"or when I am in stillnes the thoughts are seen just as toughts, but with the time when they come and come and are millon then as you say they make a portal to a Virtual reality.

Just notice thoughts; how much narration is going on. Whatever is happening thought has something to say about it. It’s constantly weaving stories about everything and everyone.

The story is so well run; the mechanisms are all in place. Thoughts have the tendency to appear as solid truths and it is so enticing to believe each and every one of them.

Yes. As I said - a habit of a million thoughts making virtual reality.

But are all of our thoughts depicting what is?

No, ofcourse not. It is just illusionary reality.

Some thoughts point to something, like ‘seeing something’ but other thoughts just point to more thoughts, exploding in a thought merry-go-round. :)

Very well said. So one is lost in all these explosions.

What if instead of thoughts offering solid truths, those explanations are nothing but assumptions? Theories at best?

Yes, everything presented by this thought explosion is kind of illusion.

Thanks for your time,

Kamen

[Vivien]

Hi Kamen,

Yes, i just ment this only single question, but nevermind. I understand what you say.

I’m just wondering you can you look for a whole with each post if you reply twice a day? :)

This fear of death and knowing that there will be death of the body in some moment is greater than the fear of loosing the ego.

But how could the ego be lost? How could something that isn’t be lost?

The ego is not an entity, it is a thought system coupled with sensations labelled as ‘body’. There is no getting rid of the ego…how can something that isn’t, be gotten rid of?

So the ego is just thoughts + sensation. Nothing else.

And those thoughts and sensations won’t disappear, they just will be seen for what they are, just thoughts and sensations.

Yes, the body will die. But is there an I / Kamen / entity that could die with the body?

When I am "Myself"or when I am in stillnes the thoughts are seen just as toughts

What is this I that is moving between ‘myself’, stillness and the story?
Where is this I?

How does this I that is moving between myself, stillness and story is experienced?

And what does the word ‘myself’ point to in experience?

Please really look here. I asked very similar questions before, so you have to look deep. Go to the immediate experience of the I and myself and describe it.

Very well said. So one is lost in all these explosions.

One is lost in thoughts? Turn your attention to the one that can be lost in thought and describe this one as precisely as you can.

Vivien

[Kamenkr]

Hello Vivian,

I’m just wondering you can you look for a whole with each post if you reply twice a day? :)

Not really :))

But how could the ego be lost? How could something that isn’t be lost?

Yes, it is impossible.

So the ego is just thoughts + sensation. Nothing else.

Yes, totaly agree.

Yes, the body will die. But is there an I / Kamen / entity that could die with the body?

No, I inquired this - those are just old layers of stories. Nothing real.

How does this I that is moving between myself, stillness and story is experienced?

You are good.What a question. It triggered a reaction in me, in which I go in the stillnes (no there is no one there as well :D)

I need to stay with this question more. It purifies everything.

And what does the word ‘myself’ point to in experience?

The "being". The place without separation.

Please really look here. I asked very similar questions before, so you have to look deep. Go to the immediate experience of the I and myself and describe it.

That was interesting as well. The Myself is feeling like returning home, stillnes, getting away from thoughts, reducing thought. Tears were comming. I was not crying but they come. Is not the first time. The imagined self vanishes and as it vanishes I hear more of the noices around. What happened for the first time was a really deep peace and then I heard the fan of my pc. Then I decided to stay as a fan, because its more peaceful there than staying as Kamen. I stayed and it was good. Then a feeling of expansion came. Then fearful thoughts came, I recognised them and they subsided. After this I expanded more. I never felt this before. But then really a fear of "No chance to return, whatever happens" came. And I decided to call it for this session. I do not want to be impatient. There are some more things to work on, so this process can be easier and smoother.

I felt that somehow that if I continue to do this, It will not be possible to get back. I wanted to ask you. Whats your oppinion. Ofcurse I know, that "where is back" when this is some Ego state of the mind.
Have you had simillar experiences? It would be nice to share.

I remember one stupid video of Sadguru, claimung that 99% people die at enlightement. I do not know if this is going to be enlightement at all or It really could be true. Hope you can say something about this as well.

One is lost in thoughts? Turn your attention to the one that can be lost in thought and describe this one as precisely as you can.

I hadn't room for this one. I will answer it after I am done with I wrote to you.

Thank you very much,

Kamen

[Vivien]

Hi Kamen,
V

: How does this I that is moving between myself, stillness and story is experienced?

K: You are good.What a question. It triggered a reaction in me, in which I go in the stillnes (no there is no one there as well :D)
I need to stay with this question more. It purifies everything.

Just notice how the belief in an entity / I shows up…. So this text is read, and then it’s followed by the sense of stillness… but then a thought jumped in saying: “ It triggered a reaction in ME, in which I go in the stillness”.

This is the same belief that the question meant to target… can you see this?

Look closely… what if there is no I whatsoever, nobody who could move between two states, stillness and thought stories?
What if all this moving between stillness and thoughts just another story provided with a thought?

That was interesting as well. The Myself is feeling like returning home, stillnes, getting away from thoughts, reducing thought. Tears were comming. I was not crying but they come. Is not the first time. The imagined self vanishes and as it vanishes I hear more of the noices around. What happened for the first time was a really deep peace and then I heard the fan of my pc. Then I decided to stay as a fan, because its more peaceful there than staying as Kamen. I stayed and it was good. Then a feeling of expansion came. Then fearful thoughts came, I recognised them and they subsided. After this I expanded more. I never felt this before. But then really a fear of "No chance to return, whatever happens" came. And I decided to call it for this session. I do not want to be impatient. There are some more things to work on, so this process can be easier and smoother.

I felt that somehow that if I continue to do this, It will not be possible to get back. I wanted to ask you. Whats your oppinion. Ofcurse I know, that "where is back" when this is some Ego state of the mind.
Have you had simillar experiences? It would be nice to share.

This was some sort of a ‘spiritual experience’, which was nice and might brought some insights, but that’s all. Seeing that there is no inherent self is not an experience, not a state. All states come and go, it’s their nature.

It’s better to let this go. Since seeing through the self is a very ordinary thing. It’s soberingly ordinary. It’s not a different state than what is normally happening.

And the belief in the self is still was there in your experience.

Then I decided to stay as a fan

What is this I that has a power to decide?
Where is the decider in this very moment?

We have to revisit your expectations since they can be in a way to see the simplicity of what is.

So how do you imagine what will or should happen when the self is seen through?

Do you think that it’s a special state? Something different from ordinary life?

Is there an expectation of there being some pleasant emotions, like peace, ease, happiness, etc., and lacking some unpleasant emotions like anger, fear, sadness, impatience, etc.?

Please reply with some detail, and total honesty.

I remember one stupid video of Sadguru, claimung that 99% people die at enlightement. I do not know if this is going to be enlightement at all or It really could be true. Hope you can say something about this as well.

The internet is full of teachers and gurus and they are saying all sorts of things. But saying that people die at enlightenment us quite farfetched :) And the sad thing is that the words of gurus are often taken as facts, since we believe they must know what they are talking about. And when statements like this is taken for granted that can trigger fears.

But fearing this would be unfounded. First, there is no one to be enlightened. Awakening is about the discovery that there is no I at the core, no separate self. So who could be enlightened? An idea? And there is no one to die. Something that never existed other than an idea, cannot die. A thought is not entity that could die. Nothing can happen to a thought :)

V: One is lost in thoughts? Turn your attention to the one that can be lost in thought and describe this one as precisely as you can.

K: I hadn't room for this one. I will answer it after I am done with I wrote to you.

Please look at this then, and write what you find.

Vivien

[Kamenkr]

Hello Vivien,

Just notice how the belief in an entity / I shows up…. So this text is read, and then it’s followed by the sense of stillness

Yes, I know that I have believes in entities. This centence is very good indeed.

It triggered a reaction in ME, in which I go in the stillness

No, there wasn't a thought that says that to me. It is for you. It is not like I have this sentence once in my mind and it makes wonders.

This is the same belief that the question meant to target… can you see this?

I hadn't this belief at first.

Look closely… what if there is no I whatsoever, nobody who could move between two states, stillness and thought stories?
What if all this moving between stillness and thoughts just another story provided with a thought?

Yes, it is like that. I will stay with this today.

This was some sort of a ‘spiritual experience’, which was nice and might brought some insights, but that’s all. Seeing that there is no inherent self is not an experience, not a state. All states come and go, it’s their nature.

Yes, I know that it is not a big deal. It wasn't even that insightful somehow. I know that it is already a story, but I had a lot of "spiritual experiences" and this one was very strange and deep.

So you thing it is a normal process? Do you also see this indestructible Self and its magnificent nature? Yes in THIS you can not say it is that, but now I just tell this trough the mind. Because one thing is to see the separate self as an illusion somehow and still have some fears but live peaceful, but this here is something totaly different. In the experience it self it felt like the most normal thing I ever had.

It’s better to let this go. Since seeing through the self is a very ordinary thing. It’s soberingly ordinary. It’s not a different state than what is normally happening.

Do you see it like this? Yes indeed it is the most normal experience, but yet unexperienced and feels like NEW.

hen I decided to stay as a fan

What is this I that has a power to decide?
Where is the decider in this very moment?

The the decider was the seperate self. But It was better to do this, knowing that I had to go to sleep soon, so there was a distraction already and as you see it was better.

So how do you imagine what will or should happen when the self is seen through?

1. I imagine that I will loose my old beliefs totaly. It is impossible to know what will be done after this. Ofcourse no control will be there anymore.
2. I might die somehow. I don't really know why I write this. Yes. I know thats an illusion, but there is a desire to watch the thoughts, on whose behalf they are comming.

Do you think that it’s a special state? Something different from ordinary life?

It might look new, but is the most normal state. Just a different point of view. And it feels that it will burn everything I imagine to be.

Is there an expectation of there being some pleasant emotions, like peace, ease, happiness, etc., and lacking some unpleasant emotions like anger, fear, sadness, impatience, etc.?

Not at all. I feel, I could make somebody sad, because I will not act like I act now. It would be totaly unpredictable.

But saying that people die at enlightenment us quite farfetched

Could you pleace use another word, I do not understand what "ferfetched" means and there is no explanation nor translation of it to another languages in internet.

But fearing this would be unfounded. First, there is no one to be enlightened. Awakening is about the discovery that there is no I at the core, no separate self. So who could be enlightened? An idea? And there is no one to die. Something that never existed other than an idea, cannot die. A thought is not entity that could die. Nothing can happen to a thought :)

I think I will need time to stay with this.

V: One is lost in thoughts? Turn your attention to the one that can be lost in thought and describe this one as precisely as you can.

I don't feel lost in thoughts right now. When I close my eyes it is peaceful.

Thank you for your time.

Kamen

[Vivien]

Hi Kamen,

It’s time for me to take out the ‘Zen stick’! So be prepared :) My words might sound a bit blunt or even harsh sometimes, but it’s not personal. You are way too much in thinking, theorizing, and not investigating your experience. You might think you do, but you actually don’t. And it’s my job to point this out for you. Since we cannot go on like this. We are just wasting each other’s time.

First, you replied quite quickly again. I assume that you are in Europe, so it’s morning when you get my new posts, but you’ve replied just in a few hours, or maybe in an hour after reading it.

No matter what I write to you, or how short my reply is, you have to spend a whole day investigating what has been offered for you. Even if I give you only one sentence. Then spend a whole day with that single sentence.

I won’t reply back to you twice a day. And if you don’t put aside your intellect and start looking, then I won’t shy away giving you the same questions again and again, for weeks if that necessary.

Yes, I know that I have believes in entities. This centence is very good indeed.

OK, you believe in entities. But after you’ve discovered it, have investigated this, or you just left as it is, an intellectual conclusion without any investigation of direct experience?

V: This is the same belief that the question meant to target… can you see this?

K: I hadn't this belief at first.

We are often blind to our own beliefs. So you might think that you don’t have a particular belief, but your replies show otherwise. And it’s my job to tell you when you are fooling yourself with a belief without even seeing it.

V: Look closely… what if there is no I whatsoever, nobody who could move between two states, stillness and thought stories?
What if all this moving between stillness and thoughts just another story provided with a thought?

K: Yes, it is like that. I will stay with this today.

You see, you replied almost immediately, while you are aware that you have to look.

Don’t reply until you’ve looked with every single question many-many times through the day.
If you cannot finish in a day, then look for 2 days. You don’t have to write every day.
But you have to look in every hour, each day, again and again.

Are you aware that you are avoid investigating things?

Is this clear that we are not having an everyday conversation about this topic? That we are no just sharing things?

Is it clear that I"m not a teacher nor a guru to give you ideas?

I’m here to guide you… to give you pointers. That’s my job. Your job is to LOOK with every pointer. Nothing will happen in you are not willing to do the work. Only you can do it, no-one can investigate instead of you.

So you thing it is a normal process? Do you also see this indestructible Self and its magnificent nature?

This is an intellectual questions based on BELIEFS. So I won’t reply to these questions, since I won’t give you more things to BELIEVE IN.

This investigation is not about gaining more knowledge, more ideas.
Quite the opposite.
It’s about investigating the beliefs and ideas you ALREADY have.

imagine that I will loose my old beliefs totaly.

No you won’t. You are imagining this to be something much bigger than what it is.
Seeing through the separate self is just the first step. Not the end. It’s just the beginning.

I might die somehow.

That’s impossible.

In order to die, first, there has to be a real self here now, which could die or cease to exist as the result of this inquiry. But this is not the case.

There is not and has never been a separate self other than an idea, so there is nothing that could die.
Something that has never existed cannot die.
It can only be discovered for what it is, just a concept, and idea.
And an idea cannot die.

Not at all. I feel, I could make somebody sad, because I will not act like I act now. It would be totaly unpredictable.

Another belief that needs to be dropped. There is no I to act even now. So actions won’t change. You imagine it something bigger then how it is. Drop all ideas. Let it go.

Could you pleace use another word, I do not understand what "ferfetched" means and there is no explanation nor translation of it to another languages in internet.

I meant: not true

V: But fearing this would be unfounded. First, there is no one to be enlightened. Awakening is about the discovery that there is no I at the core, no separate self. So who could be enlightened? An idea? And there is no one to die. Something that never existed other than an idea, cannot die. A thought is not entity that could die. Nothing can happen to a thought :)

K: I think I will need time to stay with this.

Then why did you reply? Why didn’t you stay with it and replied only when you looked at it?

V: One is lost in thoughts? Turn your attention to the one that can be lost in thought and describe this one as precisely as you can.

K: I don't feel lost in thoughts right now. When I close my eyes it is peaceful.

The one that is supposedly can be lost in thoughts MUST BE HERE ALL THE TIME. Even when there is peace.
So there is no reason not to look for it.

What you are doing is called spiritual bypassing. You are simply not investigating the pointers I give you. You hardly looked with any pointers since we started this investigation.

I won’t give you long replies any more.
You have to do the work.

If you are willing to do that then go back to my previous post, and spend a WHOLE DAY investigating the pointers and questions there.

Reply only when you looked with EVERY SINGLE QUESTION.

If after reading this post you think that I ask too much, then probably you are not ready yet. That’s all right. We don’t have to do this investigation.

Ponder on if this inquiry is what you want, and if you have a full commitment to look for yourself. If not that’s all right. We can stop. That won’t be a problem with me.

But what has happened so far is not the way to go. This has to change.

Vivien

[Kamenkr]

Hello Vivien,

OK, you believe in entities. But after you’ve discovered it, have investigated this, or you just left as it is, an intellectual conclusion without any investigation of direct experience?

I investigate it and I got direct experience of it. The direct experience is, that I am stilness, emptiness which is full.

V: Just notice how the belief in an entity / I shows up…. So this text is read, and then it’s followed by the sense of stillness… but then a thought jumped in saying: “ It triggered a reaction in ME, in which I go in the stillness”..This is the same belief that the question meant to target… can you see this?

K: I hadn't this belief at first.

V: We are often blind to our own beliefs. So you might think that you don’t have a particular belief, but your replies show otherwise. And it’s my job to tell you when you are fooling yourself with a belief without even seeing it.

No, under reaction I ment, that It showed me the emptiness more. I mean I could stay as Myself.


Yes, there is no one. Just beliefs.

Don’t reply until you’ve looked with every single question many-many times through the day.

Ok. I thought I needed to speak with you more often. It is ok, because I need to stay in stillness more anyway and somequestion trigger sometimes more thoughts, but overall they deepen the "understanding", that there is no separate self.

Are you aware that you are avoid investigating things?

Yes, because I can stay in and as awareness and deepen or establish myself there. So I am a little overwhelmed by the investigation in moments that I can just stay in stillnes and just be there. Don't say its bad. It is very good. But I answer you why I might overlooked some question.

Is this clear that we are not having an everyday conversation about this topic? That we are no just sharing things?

Now I am clear.

Is it clear that I"m not a teacher nor a guru to give you ideas?

Yes, but some answers would not be bad. Pushing would help on some places maybe less than just simply share + explain. You actualy answered me to some questions and I am grateful. But If i trust you, maybe I could go trough this barrier easier than watching who has the barrier. You do not need to explain me. I just answer you. Everything is up to you. You are trying to help me.

I’m here to guide you… to give you pointers. That’s my job. Your job is to LOOK with every pointer. Nothing will happen in you are not willing to do the work. Only you can do it, no-one can investigate instead of you.

I am doying it whole day. With you, without you, with all the questions and without. I just answered some of them that I thought are deeper. And indeed you show me the separate self so I do not thing that I am wasting my time.

K ... imagine that I will loose my old beliefs totaly.

V: No you won’t. You are imagining this to be something much bigger than what it is.
Seeing through the separate self is just the first step. Not the end. It’s just the beginning.

Yes, you are right.

Then why did you reply? Why didn’t you stay with it and replied only when you looked at it?

I will not reply then if I have something to inquire.

The one that is supposedly can be lost in thoughts MUST BE HERE ALL THE TIME. Even when there is peace.
So there is no reason not to look for it.

Yes I see it. What If I when I close my eyes I see Myself and the floating thoughts asap. Should I fight them? I just stay as I am. And I see the answer very fast.

What you are doing is called spiritual bypassing. You are simply not investigating the pointers I give you. You hardly looked with any pointers since we started this investigation. I won’t give you long replies any more.
You have to do the work.

it's a pity you think like that, but it is up to you. I looked for a long time, for a lot of question. I would even say, whole days.

But what has happened so far is not the way to go. This has to change.

I do not actually understand, why you speak like this. I think, there are great results and I worked...

Just notice how the belief in an entity / I shows up…. So this text is read, and then it’s followed by the sense of stillness… but then a thought jumped in saying: “ It triggered a reaction in ME, in which I go in the stillness”.

I ment making my mind still here. Not another type of reaction, why did I write this like this. Just puts me in stillness.

Look closely… what if there is no I whatsoever, nobody who could move between two states, stillness and thought stories?


What if all this moving between stillness and thoughts just another story provided with a thought?

It is no one to move. This question just puts me in the now.

What is this I that has a power to decide?

It has not power to decide. Just imagination.

Where is the decider in this very moment?

Here - as an imagined Hero. Nothing more. Drawn with memories and thoughts.

So how do you imagine what will or should happen when the self is seen through?

There will be /is calmness.

Do you think that it’s a special state? Something different from ordinary life?

No, the special one is the Hero. It is indeed very simple.

Is there an expectation of there being some pleasant emotions, like peace, ease, happiness, etc., and lacking some unpleasant emotions like anger, fear, sadness, impatience, etc.?

Not at all.

One is lost in thoughts? Turn your attention to the one that can be lost in thought and describe this one as precisely as you can.

I can not put into words more than the fact, that it makes me to be still. Sorry.
The Hero is House of cards. The more I do this the better I see it.

Thank you,

Kamen

[Vivien]

Hi Kamen,

After your last post, I have a better understanding what is causing the misunderstanding between us. We mean by looking two very different things. We are simply talking about different things :)

I investigate it and I got direct experience of it. The direct experience is, that I am stilness, emptiness which is full.

Here is LU, the term direct experience refers to: color, sound, taste, smell, sensation, and the direct observation of the appearance of the thought (but not the thought content).

According to this “I am stillness” is NOT a direct experience, but a thought.
“emptiness which is full” is also NOT a direct experience, but a thought.

So what you consider ‘direct experience’ is a thought interpretation, but not the direct experience of sound, color, taste, smell, sensation and the noticing of thought.

No, under reaction I ment, that It showed me the emptiness more. I mean I could stay as Myself.

And this is the source of the confusion between us, that I tried to point out with my previous questions, but you’ve missed them, since you have quite strong beliefs in ‘Myself’, in ‘stillness’, and what all these labels means to you.

because I need to stay in stillness more anyway

This is a big misunderstanding that I was trying to point out before, so now I have to speak very directly.

We have to clarify that this investigation is NOT about ‘staying in stillness’ or ‘staying in Myself’. No.

We are not practicing anything or trying to stay in anything, not even stillness.
Stillness is not a direct experience, it’s just the lessening of thoughts.
What you call as stillness is a STATE.
Seeing that there is no separate self is NOT a state.
It’s not as state of being in stillness.

It doesn’t matter how much thought is present, it doesn’t matter how busy the mind is, seeing that there is no self does not depend on the lack or the lessening of thoughts. It’s not a state to be in.

It’s a deep visceral knowing REGARDLESS of there being stillness or not.

Only a separate self BELIEVES in stillness, and believes that it has to STAY in stillness.
Only the separate self BELIEVES that there is a REAL me, a real Myself (with capital M), so I have to go there, and stay there.
This is just a BELIEF on behalf of the separate self.

You have a solid idea what awakening means. And according to belief of the separate self it means to stay in stillness, what it calls as myself. But this is just a story. It is simply not how it is.

Yes, because I can stay in and as awareness and deepen or establish myself there.

This is the same belief again.

This is NOT awakening… this is a story on behalf of a separate self who thinks that it has to go and stay in and as awareness to establish itself there. But none of this is true. This is NOT what awakening is about. It is something very different.

I am doying it whole day.

But what you are doing the whole day is NOT what I am asking you to do.
I do not ask you to stay in stillness… quite the contrary.
Only a separate self could stay in stillness… if there were a separate self in reality… but there isn’t.

Yes I see it. What If I when I close my eyes I see Myself and the floating thoughts asap.

It’s not possible to see ‘myself’.
You might see something, but that something is not ‘myself’.
There is NO such thing as ‘myself’. Not even with capital M.

What you call ‘Myself’ is the separate self in disguise.

Myself = separate self

This is a trick of thoughts. Awakening is not what you think it is.

Should I fight them? I just stay as I am. And I see the answer very fast.

So this separate self believes that is has control, and has the ability to fight things.
But it’s impossible to fight anything.

This is just a thought story on behalf of a self who wants to fight thoughts in order to get rid of them and get into a state of stillness (no thoughts). But this is not awakening. It’s just a story.

I ment making my mind still here. Not another type of reaction, why did I write this like this. Just puts me in stillness.

But awakening is NOT about a still mind.
Mind as such doesn’t exist.

And there is NO YOU who could be put INTO stillness (into a state of no thought).
This I who wants to get into stillness is the separate self.

I hope my comments are clear. I tried to express this as clearly as I can, since you have a belief about awakening… a belief, which is not how it is.

So at this point you have to make a decision what is it that you want.

If you still want to believe that awakening is about getting into a state of stillness, then this inquiry is not for you.
I cannot help with that.
Since getting into stillness is just a belief on behalf of a separate self.

What I can help you with is get out of stillness, stay with the everyday human experience, and inquire what is this I that wants to run away from everyday life, wants to run away from thoughts, and get into a special state, what calls is my real self, or Myself.

So if you want to work with me, then you have to question every single belief you have.

You have to question:
- If awaking is actually about getting into a state of stillness (no thoughts)
- If thoughts are actually problem and needs to be get rid of
- If there is actually such thing as ‘Myself’ or this is just another trick of thoughts
- If awakening is actually a state to stay in
- If there is a control at all
- And many more.

Please really ponder on this. What I can offer for you is VERY different then what you are expecting to get.
I cannot give you what you want.

I can only point out to you that what you want is NOT awakening.
It’s just a desire and wish on behalf of a separate self.

You might be disappointed after reading this. If that’s so, I understand.
But I cannot help you with a dream.
I can only help you to see truth (which is not what you think it is).

Please read this post a few times carefully.

Vivien

[Kamenkr]

Hi Vivien,

sorry for the fast response, but you wrote a whole post about 2 words, that I used to describe the "feeling" of what is NOW, what I am, and it is just a try. I can never put this in words. I do not have any idea what is or how is it is just the present moment. I do not look for anything, do not have any desires and no fears or if they come they go.

You can never convince me, that I do not exist. Yes I am not the character I thought to be, I am not only the body. I am. I am always. It is from the inside this knowing. I could not see this before, but now it becomes clear. This is the direct experience. Try to deny it. What do you deny - you can never do this, as is to deny yourself? What do you want me to do? - There is nothing to do.
Everything unfolds automatically.

Describe who you are and what you are then. Put it into words.Then I will tell you - no those are just ideas.

I have the answers asap.

You have to question:
- If awaking is actually about getting into a state of stillness (no thoughts)
- If thoughts are actually problem and needs to be get rid of
- If there is actually such thing as ‘Myself’ or this is just another trick of thoughts
- If awakening is actually a state to stay in
- If there is a control at all
- And many more.

1. It is not as state. I am not a state.
2. No, I am in the middle. Everything comes and goes. I stay.
3. I will answer you after you tell me who you are. You will answer each word saying its a thought where its clearly not, but a try to communicate something that comes right now.
4. No! I do not have states. Everything unflolds from it self. How could there be diferent states?
5.Who could control what?
6. So many questions for what? What do I get? Who will get something? (Explanation - that is not a simple question, this is rhetorical question. Because you would say that I ask you.

Only thing that I am asking you, is to describe what you are with different words.

Please really ponder on this. What I can offer for you is VERY different then what you are expecting to get.
I cannot give you what you want.

I do not expect to get anything at all. What is to get? Everything is now.

I can only point out to you that what you want is NOT awakening.

What is awakening? Another idea...

You might be disappointed after reading this.

I am only disappointed that you take some words I use and make a whole post, where I never ment what you mean. Or this is some technique?

Thank you for your time. I imagined you how you are typing to me every day. The help you offer is very nice.
I am really grateful.

Kamen

[Kamenkr]

Hello again,

I stayed with the previous questions. The answers are pretty much the same. But there is some boiling in what we call body.
Yes, the body is only the history we learned. But as we think in this sense, there should be a future as well. But for who? In the direct experience there is not even a now...


When I stay with the questions, it is clear that I do not exist, then some pain comes at the surface, so then there is some resistance, which is recognised (but again on whos behalf is it comming...) and the pain becomes stronger and this becomes a vicious circle. But this is being seen and if the pain is more important than some current noice than, ther should be anyone for whom it is important.

When I say I am, I am always. You maybe think thats a thought. I am watching this right now. And this is actually absolute nothing. But is this nothing? That which is, which exists? What is this? What is the sound of the bird? It is not a bird. But it is not nothing as well. Convince me that you do not exist, or that the bird does not exist.

And again, when I mean the present moment, how could be there a present moment, without a past to compare? Who compares. But I just try to anser you somehow.

I am willing to continue this, whatever this is. I am willing to stay with your questions, as long as you want, understanding that you do not understand me some times, but even if you do not it is ok. I think you know what you are doing.

Who is this I that wrote the last sentence, you could ask? Could it be automatically written? Do I control this?

Thank you,

Kamen