Getting liberated in Brazil

[deniselias]

Hi, Kalle!

I mean it in the most simple way. Like looking for your pants!!!!!

Well, the thing is - I cannot look for the "I" like I look for my pants because it is not a thing or an object.
But if it is not a thing, I am not able to look for it the way I look for things, right? But I can look for a memory, and a memory is not an object as well... So I don't know if looking for the I the way I look for my pants and not finding it proves it doesn't exist!

Where is this "I" ????

I can't locate it.
This proves it doesn't exist?
Maybe I'm too attached to the idea that this "I" is this point of view inside my head that feels like the "experiencer", the "observer", the "interpreter"...

I still don't get it.... :-(

Dênis

[seeadler]

Hi Denis :-)


In this inquiry, for only once in life, you have the opportunity to find out what is actually really there, and what is only imaginary, only thought content.

As I we agreed in the beginning, I am asking questions and you look in actual experience, what do you find.


So yes, you can look at a memory, like "a friend from old days". You can't deny there is appearing this thing we call memory/thought, right?
But your friend is not appearing, right?

So the actual experience - what you really know for sure - of "memory of a friend" is: Thought.
Right?

So, you look for your pants and find: pants, i.e. sensations labelled "pants".
You look for your old friend and find: Thought.
You look for Santa Claus and find: Thought.


Now, is this word "I", or "me, my, self" other perceived than as thought?


Can a thought direct attention??

[deniselias]

Hey Kalle!

So yes, you can look at a memory, like "a friend from old days". You can't deny there is appearing this thing we call memory/thought, right?
But your friend is not appearing, right?

Yes. What appears is a representation of my friend. Not the friend itself.

Now, is this word "I", or "me, my, self" other perceived than as thought?

No, it isn't.

Can a thought direct attention??

I'm not sure. If a thought is an content of awareness, it seems that it doesn't hava "initiative". It just appears and vanishes.
I'm still insecure about it...

Dênis

[seeadler]

So yes, you can look at a memory, like "a friend from old days". You can't deny there is appearing this thing we call memory/thought, right?
But your friend is not appearing, right?

Yes. What appears is a representation of my friend. Not the friend itself.

Yes, but what is the direct experience of this "representation" ? (Seeing/Hearing/smelling/tasting/feeling/thought)

Can a thought direct attention??

I'm not sure. If a thought is an content of awareness, it seems that it doesn't have a "initiative". It just appears and vanishes.
I'm still insecure about it...

Now, don't rely on anything you have learned or heard or read. If you want to be crystal clear about that, it has to come from your own experience! And that's why you can really trust it and why it can never be taken from you.

If now there is a knocking at your door - is there first a thought appearing, saying: "now quickly, attention to "hearing", please" ? Or, is attention immediately with the sound?

If you are typing an email, and your attention is suddenly gone with a thought about some yesterdays discussion... did "you" do it by purpose??

When I ask you to direct your attention somewhere, and you think: "ok, now I'm gonna do that" - does this thought come from some "special deciding entity" you can find in AE, or is it.... just another thought, appearing by itself?


Is there any control of this processes, or could it be that it is just happening?

Look at the billions of complex life processes going on in your body, without which you would die after one second.

Look how life also in other nature is unfolding in this overwhelming variety and intelligence - is there a controller?


:-)

[deniselias]

Hey, Kalle! Thank you for answerig so fast!!

Yes, but what is the direct experience of this "representation" ? (Seeing/Hearing/smelling/tasting/feeling/thought)

Thought.

If now there is a knocking at your door - is there first a thought appearing, saying: "now quickly, attention to "hearing", please" ? Or, is attention immediately with the sound?

Attention perceives immediately the sound, and then a thought may appear.

If you are typing an email, and your attention is suddenly gone with a thought about some yesterdays discussion... did "you" do it by purpose??

No, I didn't. The thought about the discussion appeared by itself and then my attention followed it.

When I ask you to direct your attention somewhere, and you think: "ok, now I'm gonna do that" - does this thought come from some "special deciding entity" you can find in AE, or is it.... just another thought, appearing by itself?

Gosh, it appears by itself!!
But it is a kind of response to what you asked ME.
I see that the thought appeares by itself... but it only could appear because of the circumstance, because of what "I" have lived and learned and memorized... right?
My point is - this specific thought could only appear in "me", in this moment... I see that this "I" is just a bunch of thoughts... but I still percieve a "me", an identity, a point of view that seems very particular...
So if "I" is made by thoughts, why I still have this feeling of being an entity that is separate from the world?

Is there any control of this processes, or could it be that it is just happening?

No control... wow, this is a little overwhelming! So I don't choose anything? No free-will?

Look how life also in other nature is unfolding in this overwhelming variety and intelligence - is there a controller?

Life unfolds - this I can observe. If there is or there is not a controller, I cannot be sure. At least, I can't be sure using the senses, feelings and thoughts.

Regards!
(I'm very excited with this conversation and the discoveries you've been showing me!)

[seeadler]

I see that the thought appeares by itself... but it only could appear because of the circumstance, because of what "I" have lived and learned and memorized... right?

I don't know why a certain thought appears ;-)
Living, learning, memorizing - was there ever an "I" in charge, in control of that?

Imagine you would have been raised in a completely different culture in Siberia, would your thoughts be the same?

My point is - this specific thought could only appear in "me", in this moment... I see that this "I" is just a bunch of thoughts... but I still percieve a "me", an identity, a point of view that seems very particular...

Look carefully: Can you really separate this feeling of me from the experience?

If e.g. there is an itch, look carefully: is there a) the itch and b) a "me" percieving it?
or just "itch"?

can you really find something that perceives everything? or thoughts telling "I perceive"?

So if "I" is made by thoughts, why I still have this feeling of being an entity that is separate from the world?

Tell me more about this feeling of being separate from the world.
Is it a sensation somewhere?
A thought?


------------------------------------
Let's do another exercise on how thoughts interpret reality.

Place an apple or a similar fruit on a table in front of you.
Look at it, ignoring thought stories, and investigate:

Where is seeing happening? Outside or inside?
Just in the seeing, is there "inside and outside"? If yes, where?
The seen, does it more look like 2D or 3D, when you ignore the thought stories about it?

Look carefully: Is there actually an apple seen, or just "colour"?
Where does the name of the colour come from?
Does what you see already have a name when you see it, or it just is?
Can you notice the gap between seeing and labelling?

Is there an entity "I" that perceives that perceived object, or is there just "percieving"?
Do you "think" the experience, or there is just experiencing?

many questions.... but definitely worth to work it through thoroughly.

warm wishes,
kalle

[deniselias]

Hi, Kalle!

Imagine you would have been raised in a completely different culture in Siberia, would your thoughts be the same?

I believe that my thoughts would be completely difrerent if I lived in Siberia - or even at a house on the next street!

Can you really separate this feeling of me from the experience?

No, I can´t. But it seems that every experience that occurs with "me" brings this "I-thought" with it. And this makes me think that the "I" is there...

can you really find something that perceives everything? or thoughts telling "I perceive"?

I don't get it... there are multiple experiences happening in the universe right now; I perceive only some of them. And it seems that if I perceive some experiences and not all of them is because there is a "focus" of the awareness, which is the "I".

Tell me more about this feeling of being separate from the world.
Is it a sensation somewhere?
A thought?

Not sure. Maybe it's a conclusion. My senses interact with the world. I conclude that there is an "I" (the subject) and the world (the object).

Where is seeing happening? Outside or inside?
Just in the seeing, is there "inside and outside"? If yes, where?
The seen, does it more look like 2D or 3D, when you ignore the thought stories about it?

Strange... when I look at the apple in this way, outside and inside disappear. There is only the seeing, and it looks 2D, as a pattern of colour and light.

Look carefully: Is there actually an apple seen, or just "colour"?
Where does the name of the colour come from?
Does what you see already have a name when you see it, or it just is?
Can you notice the gap between seeing and labelling?

It´s just colour. The name of the colour comes from a memory. One day I learned that this pattern of shape and colour is called "apple".
It just is, and the name is recalled after recognizing the pattern.
Yes, I can notice the gap between seeing and labelling.

Is there an entity "I" that perceives that perceived object, or is there just "percieving"?
Do you "think" the experience, or there is just experiencing?

I don't know!! I'm stuck!! Again, you asked ME to look at the apple... "I" did it and, even recognizing that there is not an apple, but a pattern of colour and light, and that I don't think the experience, this "I-feeling" is there!!
I think that it's difficult for me to understand this point - if there is no "I", how can "I" direct the attention to the apple? If there is no "I", what is writing these words? What is looking at the apple?

Even the experiencing seems to have a localization... this localization comes from the fact that I (and not my son, for example) is looking at the apple. This makes hard to see that there is not an "I".

Wow, I'm upset for not geting it!!!

[seeadler]

can you really find something that perceives everything? or thoughts telling "I perceive"?

I don't get it... there are multiple experiences happening in the universe right now; I perceive only some of them. And it seems that if I perceive some experiences and not all of them is because there is a "focus" of the awareness, which is the "I".

Sorry, that was expressed unclearly. I meant:
do you find "a perciever", or something that perceives, separate from the experience.

You basically answered that one:

Can you really separate this feeling of me from the experience?

No, I can´t. But it seems that every experience that occurs with "me" brings this "I-thought" with it. And this makes me think that the "I" is there...

Exactly, thought automatically puts an "I"- label to experience. And then "it makes you think" an I is there, yes - or better: "I"-ing / "selfing" happens.
Maybe because we've been told for so long that we are "somebody", an entity that is independently thinking and acting :-)

Tell me more about this feeling of being separate from the world.
Is it a sensation somewhere?
A thought?

Not sure. Maybe it's a conclusion. My senses interact with the world. I conclude that there is an "I" (the subject) and the world (the object).

Please have another look at the hearing exercise (Nov 19)!.

But maybe it's more about this:

I don't know!! I'm stuck!! Again, you asked ME to look at the apple... "I" did it and, even recognizing that there is not an apple, but a pattern of colour and light, and that I don't think the experience, this "I-feeling" is there!!

To prevent a misunderstanding... of course there is a feeling of me, of being there :-) ...but the assumed "thinker", "doer", i.e. a controlling entity is not there!
Can you see?
Everything happens effortlessly by itself - we are just trained, conditioned to believe being separate...


For now just that, I'll come back to you later.

Kalle

[deniselias]

Hey, Kalle!

I observe that the experience is one thing, and my mind keeps telling me that there is a subject ("I/me/myself"), an object and an action.
I realize that this is not true - that these three aspects are only labels and the experience can't exist if we remove one of them.

of course there is a feeling of me, of being there :-)

Now this changes everything!! There is a feeling of me, of being there... but this is awareness "localized", right?? It's not an "I".

I think I'm getting closer...

...but the assumed "thinker", "doer", i.e. a controlling entity is not there!

What still puzzles me is this - Awareness is experiencing life through "me", or throught this localization that I used to call "me". At this very moment, I am writing these words... you are telling me that there is nobody controlling anything? But it seems that I am choosing each word! I even stop and think about the best way to express the ideas I want to express...
I still don't get the absence of will.
I think this is the last thing that is preventing me to see it!

Warm regards,

Dênis

[seeadler]

Hey, Dênis

What still puzzles me is this - Awareness is experiencing life through "me", or throught this localization that I used to call "me". At this very moment, I am writing these words... you are telling me that there is nobody controlling anything? But it seems that I am choosing each word! I even stop and think about the best way to express the ideas I want to express...
I still don't get the absence of will.
I think this is the last thing that is preventing me to see it!

ok. When "you stop and think about..." can you actually see and know who or what decided to stop?
Or is "stopping to type" happening and a thought immediately just labels "I stopped because..." ?

When there is "choosing words", "comparing ways of expression" - is there other than a lot of thoughts appearing quickly by themselves?

When you e.g. say "I want to express very clearly, it's my will" - in AE is there more than a thought, labelling other thoughts and sensations, that appeared by themselves?

When you e.g. say "It's my free will to donate blood" - who or what made this thought "I want to donate blood" appear in awareness?
More honest would actually be to say "An impuls for donating blood is seen" ;-)



Then... I think I didn't say there is nobody controlling anything - I asked if it's possible to find a controller.

thinking, choosing, typing, stopping obviously happens, I don't know how.


..and: Is awareness experiencing? I mean it sounds good, but... how you know there is awareness separate from experience? are there other ways to describe IT?

of course there is a feeling of me, of being there :-)

Now this changes everything!! There is a feeling of me, of being there... but this is awareness "localized", right?? It's not an "I".

;-) good that we got clear about this.
"Being there", "awareness localized" - you can try to grasp it in many ways. Call it I, or THIS, or pineapple.
....and, does this "awareness" actually have a fixed locality?

I think I'm getting closer...

I think so, too :-)

[deniselias]

Hello, Kalle!

ok. When "you stop and think about..." can you actually see and know who or what decided to stop?
Or is "stopping to type" happening and a thought immediately just labels "I stopped because..." ?

Well, this is an shocking perception, and it seems that some time is necessary to get used to it! But it is true - I don't choose anything! The thoughts simply appear by themselves!

"An impuls for donating blood is seen" ;-)

I like this!

..and: Is awareness experiencing? I mean it sounds good, but... how you know there is awareness separate from experience? are there other ways to describe IT?

Maybe.... life?

....and, does this "awareness" actually have a fixed locality?

Awareness seems to accompany all the experiences.

Dênis

[seeadler]

Great.

I need some sleep now, almost midnight here ;-)


just let it all settle down a bit.

I have still a few nice exercises for you, so we can still deepen this.


meanwhile - enjoy how everything is being done for you :-)

[seeadler]

Hey Dênis,

how are you doing?

Well, this is an shocking perception, and it seems that some time is necessary to get used to it! But it is true - I don't choose anything! The thoughts simply appear by themselves!

Everything is "given", isn't it?

Breathing happens by itself.... Seeing, Feeling happens by itself... Thinking happens by itself.... and focussing, too.

Life unfolds, like everywhere around.

Awareness seems to accompany all the experiences.

I'm not sure, but: can you separate "awareness" from "experience" ?



------------------------

here a great exercise on the question if thoughts can actually understand reality!

Think of f.ex. a fruit of which you are sure you have it at home - let's say a ripe peach..
First, imagine very intensely the smell, the texture of it's surface, the density and weight...
Imagine biting into it- the sound, the juicy texture, the taste in the mouth.. as good as you remember.
Write all that down.

Now go to kitchen, take the real peach. Smell it, feel it, take a bite... eat it.

Now ask yourself:
Does your description on the paper have anything to do with the experience itself?

Can a word -like sweet or juicy- know anything of the experience itself?

In general, does thought know ever anything of experience?

Are thoughts able to understand reality?

enjoy ;-)

[deniselias]

Hello, Kalle!
How are you?
I'm fine, and I noticed two interesting thoughts/beliefs/"malwares" in my system.

1 - the belief that I will experience selflessness. How can "I" experience selflessness????
I realized I was imagining that the experience of selflessness would be experienced as... the self (or through the self)!!
This is (was, I hope) getting in the way!

2 - the belief that, if I realize that the self does not exist, then nothing has any sense, and everything will be sad and meaningless. I think this is a kind of fear of loosing the I, the "know world", "life as I know it".

I think that recognizing these two things are good. I hope I have already got them out of the way. But if you feel important to say anything about it, you're welcome!

Everything is "given", isn't it?

I think I still have a kind of attachment that holds me from accepting that this is it. I think I feel like I'm loosing something; I'd like to ask you some help with this.

I'm not sure, but: can you separate "awareness" from "experience" ?

No. Awareness and experience are glued together!

Does your description on the paper have anything to do with the experience itself?

It is just a pointer. The description points to memories of the experience. But they don't relate to the experience itself.

Can a word -like sweet or juicy- know anything of the experience itself?

No. Words are "maps". And maps aren't the terrain.

In general, does thought know ever anything of experience?

No, Thoughts are just a system of representation. They are disconnected from the experience.

Are thoughts able to understand reality?

No. Thoughts can think about the reality, they can indicate something real. But they aren't the direct experience of the reality.

Regards!

Dênis

[seeadler]

hey Dênis,

I'm fine thank you :-)

I noticed two interesting thoughts/beliefs/"malwares" in my system.

1 - the belief that I will experience selflessness. How can "I" experience selflessness????
I realized I was imagining that the experience of selflessness would be experienced as... the self (or through the self)!!
This is (was, I hope) getting in the way!

I'm not completely sure what you mean, but it sounds like you expected a feeling of "not being there"... right?

And yes, how can "selflessness" be a new experience, if there never was a "self" anyway?

Notice how the whole idea of the doer, the thinker, the knower "Dênis" has always been happening just in thoughts.


Realization usually doesn't happen with a big "bang", fireworks etc.
But there might be a slight shift in perception happening over days or weeks.
This realization is more like a gentle beginning of something.

How does it feel being/talking with other people now? Any difference?

2 - the belief that, if I realize that the self does not exist, then nothing has any sense, and everything will be sad and meaningless. I think this is a kind of fear of loosing the I, the "know world", "life as I know it".

Was it just a belief, or do you now feel something like "sadness" or "fear"?


------------------------------
Let's have one more exercise :-)
Lay down or sit down in a relaxed position.
Relax your eyes, they might close, relax your mouth and jaw, now let awareness sink from head/thinking down to body/feeling.

Just in feeling, without thinking about...
Can you know the size of your body?
Can you know the weight and scope?

In actual experience, does your body have a shape or form?
Is there a boundary between "body" and "clothes"?
Is there a boundary between body and matress/chair/mat?

Is there something like "inside" and "outside"? If yes, inside of what?

Is there actually "a body"?

Is perception "living" in a certain place?

In this perceiving - is there something missing, something that should be other?



If there are any questions, please let me know.
You might as well take some time, to look if something comes up.

warm wishes
kalle