Needs help

[Vivien]

Hi Kaisa,

You did a nice investigation.

So is there any control over thoughts? Any at all?

Is there anything that does not happen automatically?

Is there anything that needs your doing? Or everything is just happening?

What do you do in order to be?

What do you do in order to see?
What do you do in order to hear?
What do you do in order to feel?
What do you do in order to taste and smell?

What do you do for thoughts to be?

What do you do in order for the body to be?

Please investigate each questions thoroughly many times throughout the day.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien

[Kaisa]

I feel like I would have liked to investigate these questions more frequently throughout the whole day, but was a little busy with school for most of it. Here goes.

So is there any control over thoughts? Any at all?

I don't make thinking happen, thoughts come and go on their own.

Is there anything that does not happen automatically?

Breathing, blinking, eating, speaking, movement etc. happen automatically. "I'm moving my arm" and "the arm is moving on its own" are pointing to the same thing, which is just the experience alone, seeing and sensing.

Is there anything that needs your doing? Or everything is just happening?

In thoughts, yes. There was a thought as I read this question "I need to write that email today", but if I look at the writing process as it happens, there's nothing else than the happening going on. Thoughts come, fingers move, letters appear on the screen, reading happens. There was also some frustration as this happened, but that was a sensation, and it too just happened.

What do you do in order to be?

Being happens. This word was a little confusing, but I took it in the sense of being alive, bodily functions happening.

What do you do in order to see?
What do you do in order to hear?
What do you do in order to feel?
What do you do in order to taste and smell?

Eyes are moving, blinking happens. Sounds happen, hearing happens. Fingers move over different things - clothes, laptop, skin, but feeling happens on its own (so does movement). If we're talking about emotions - sensations in the body come and attention moves toward those sensations. Tasting and smelling just happen. Breathing in brings the aroma. And eating, putting things in the mouth make tasting possible.

What do you do for thoughts to be?

This was clear, that there doesn't need to be any doing for thoughts to come. I could call it "waiting", but even that implies doing.

What do you do in order for the body to be?

There were thoughts like "I need to eat and drink water in order to live". Yes, food and water are needed for survival, but when I look at those processes - chewing, swallowing, I can see that they just happen.

Also, I was investigating the bingeing thing today. The desire to have something really salty or fatty came in the evening when I came home from school and had just finished eating dinner. I was planning what to eat and my mouth started watering by the sheer idea (Pavlov's dogs came to mind then). There was some restlessness in the body mostly in the stomach. I found multiple different reasons as to why this happened. I had skipped breakfast and was hungry all the way to lunch time. Sleep deprivation caused crankiness and I was upset and tired when I finally came home. That made me think that maybe bingeing is a way to relax and to deal with even really small upsets. It's just learned behavior. I investigated the desire after dinner and it didn't feel too compelling. Just a vague sensation in the body, thoughts planning, and mouth watering. I then slept for two hours and woke up feeling a bit more rested and not wanting to binge.

[Vivien]

Hi Kaisa,

You did an excellent investigation :)

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

Look around, all colours are given, they are happening. It’s not that the me-character can choose and make colours that are present into different ones. Or choose not to see green and see pink instead. Colours are happening. Shapes are happening. Sounds are happening.

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?
And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

Now look, what is not given?

What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?

Vivien

[Kaisa]

Hey! Sorry this is coming in late. Fell asleep early in the evening and slept like a baby.

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

Doing implies a doer. Subject + verb + object. I'm brushing my teeth. I shouldn't worry about the future. The doer is someone/something that is the owner of experience, something that is moving the body and that thinks, generates its own thoughts.
Happening doesn't imply a doer - someone or something making things happen. Teeth are being brushed, thoughts and sensations about the future appear.

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

Cold hands and feet: this doesn't need a doer, there isn't anyone who's making this happen or generating the awareness needed to notice the coldness. Body can warm itself up by wrapping itself in a duvet. It's a little awkward to refer to experience like this, though.
No doing, just movement happening.

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

Can't even answer to the question of how they could be done or made to happen. They appear, no doing involved. It's really simple.

Now look, what is not given?

What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

I had to investigate this for a long time. There were many thoughts coming up explaining everything that the me-character has to do, everything it hates doing (the laundry, packing up, washing dishes). Things that would not get done if there was no doing. But this is not true. Of course life goes on and things that need to get done, get done. There's always a me-character in the middle of these activities, but it's in thoughts. Everything that is needed is given, moment by moment. There's enough energy in the body to wash the dishes and do the laundry when dirty clothes are given :)

Everything appears spontaneously, little bit or a lot different in content depending on the situation - the soft warm breeze of wind, quiet and peaceful or the loud noises of a group of teenagers passing by on the street.

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?

I can either answer by thinking about all the different things I have to do in the future or by going to experience and saying that there's nothing that requires any doing. Lying here in bed writing this is simple and effortless. Things don't always feel effortless or easy but that is just a sensation + a thought.

Is the me character given?
Yes, it appears in the form of thoughts. "Me in the past, my story, my problems, me having problems in the future, being scared and not knowing what to do", appear now, but only in thoughts. A thought may come and sometimes cause a response - hunger + a picture/thought of food in the fridge -> walking and eating. Or maybe just the hunger alone is enough, no thought needed to tell it what to do but it's there anyway.

The concept of free will and choice still seem a little confusing. If there are multiple options, how does choosing happen? Maybe it's just part of conditioning. Likes and dislikes influence the actions. I can eat an apple or a sandwich -> thoughts come and there's arguing over which one is better and what I should do. Maybe choosing only happens in the mind, and in reality, there's only happening. Either an apple or a sandwhich is eaten.

[Vivien]

Hi Kaisa,

The concept of free will and choice still seem a little confusing. If there are multiple options, how does choosing happen?

Who/what wants to know this? Who is asking the question?
Is there anyone wanting to know the answer, or this thought is also just appearing on its own?

Maybe choosing only happens in the mind, and in reality, there's only happening.

Mind? What mind?
What is the mind in this very moment as you perceive it?
Where is it, here now?

Likes and dislikes influence the actions. I can eat an apple or a sandwich -> thoughts come and there's arguing over which one is better and what I should do.

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

Vivien

[Kaisa]

Hey Vivien! Thanks for the good questions.

Who/what wants to know this? Who is asking the question?
Is there anyone wanting to know the answer, or this thought is also just appearing on its own?

There was a story of "I am confused, I need to know". Only those thoughts and some frustration (sensation) can be found. Nothing else beyond those, what/who is confused or frustrated. There was a thought appearing, and in the moment there was a self who was confused and who wanted to know. That was an image.

Mind? What mind?
What is the mind in this very moment as you perceive it?
Where is it, here now?

There are just thoughts appearing, no mind to be found. In this statement "the choosing happens in the mind", the mind was the content of a thought. Just a label.

What is it that is considering these options?

The sight of the piece of candy in front of me and the fragrance of it seem to cause certain kind of thoughts. There is the listing of the pros and cons happening and an image of me in the past eating them. That something that is "listing" these pros and cons or "making" the image appear, can't be found. There isn't anything/anyone doing this.

Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

There was a thought that said "I can eat this one thing, it's not so bad" and a thought that said "I won't be able to stop and I shouldn't be eating candy to replace real food". Then the candy was put away, out of sight. No one made the decision happen. There wasn't anything that decided what would be a better option between the two and nothing that sided with the latter thought. Deciding is basically just another evaluating thought that says what is good and bad. Eating or putting the candy away is a happening, as is thought appearing.

What is it that performed the chosen action?

The arm and the fingers moved.

[Vivien]

Hi Kaisa,

Nice investigation.

Look closely, what comes first:
- an impulse to do something
- the action itself
- or a thought about decision?

In which order they happen? Or maybe they happen simultaneously? Or not?

Does thought cause action or thought just describe action?

Vivien

[Kaisa]

Look closely, what comes first:
- an impulse to do something
- the action itself
- or a thought about decision?

I went walking and passed by a couple of restaurants and there was a scent of food coming from there. That scent caused an impulse to go and have something to eat. It was difficult to look at this and see clearly but it seemed like the impulse came first.The thought explaining why it was better not to go there came a bit later, when I was already going to a different direction.

Sometimes thought about decision comes first like today, when there was an option to have a piece of cake with or without whipped cream. There was a thought "I'll have it with cream" and then came the action. The action isn't always what thought says it should be. There is a thought "I won't be having any more snacks this evening", but sometimes I do. It's unpredictable. Thought always makes it seem like it makes things happen. When things don't happen like it predicted, that is overlooked or explained away.

Does thought cause action or thought just describe action?

It seems that the action comes and whatever that is, thought says that it is responsible for the decision and caused the action. Here the explanation came after the action - I was already walking away from the restaurant and then a thought came that there's food home, no need to eat outside.

I can lie in my bed reading or playing with my phone and there's a thought that says over and over again that I need to do the laundry. When I at some point get up to do the laundry, thought explains it as something it made happen. Or then the laundry doesn't get done that day and thought claims that for its own doing, too. "I'll do it tomorrow" - at some point the laundry gets done and then that thought has come true.

[Vivien]

Hi Kaisa,

You did a nice investigation.

So is there anything that there is a control over?

What does this experience happening TO?
Is there someone here having this experience?
Is the body the experiencer, or the body appears AS an experience?

What are you separate from right now?
Are you separate from this experience, being something other than experience and experiencing what is going on?

Is this very experience is separate from the knowing of it?

Is there anything outside of this here-and-now experience?

Vivien

[Kaisa]

Hi Vivien!

So is there anything that there is a control over?

There is always thought labeling experience, as experience happens. There always seems to be the label 'I' or 'mine' in everything, in movement, in thoughts, in sensations. This label makes it seem like there is control. At the same time it is seen that movement, thoughts, and sensations just happen, there's nothing special or "other" in them, something separate from the actual experience.

What does this experience happening TO?
Is there someone here having this experience?
Is the body the experiencer, or the body appears AS an experience?

It felt uncomfortable to look into this and I seem to have ran to a wall. I wrote that there isn't anything separate from this experience, and it feels true but it also seems like there is the body, and this experience is happening to it. That experience is coming to the body and is experienced through the body - through the senses. It seems like the outside world is something that the body experiences, and the inside world like thoughts and emotions are also experienced through/in the body. But at the same time, the body is also experienced. The body is something that can be looked at and something that one can focus on.

What are you separate from right now?
Are you separate from this experience, being something other than experience and experiencing what is going on?

The experience now is the body, sounds, shapes and colors, sensations, and thoughts. There isn't anything other than, something separate from this experience.

Is this very experience separate from the knowing of it?

No. The knowing and the experience come together, it's happening simultaneously.

Is there anything outside of this here-and-now experience?

No. What is experienced directly now, is what is here now.

[Vivien]

Hi Kaisa,

It felt uncomfortable to look into this and I seem to have ran to a wall. I wrote that there isn't anything separate from this experience, and it feels true but it also seems like there is the body, and this experience is happening to it.

OK. What is the experience of the body here now?
Isn’t body just a different label on sensations?

Is there anything to the body but sensations + colors?

Are the sensations contained IN a body?
Or all there is to the body those sensations themselves?

And which sensation ‘of the body’ is masquerading as an experiencer?

Is the experiencer a sensation in the chest?
Or a sensation called ‘face’?
Or the sensation called ‘forehead’?
Or the sensations labelled ‘eyes’, ‘ears’, ‘mouth’?

Which sensation is the one that experiences this experience here now?
Isn’t that sensation itself is being experienced?

It seems like the outside world is something that the body experiences, and the inside world like thoughts and emotions are also experienced through/in the body.

And where is the dividing line between inside and outside?

Please don’t think, rather notice what is here now in experience.

What is the experience of inside and outside?
Inside and outside of what? The skin? But isn’t the skin just another sensation in experience?

Are other sensations being contained IN the sensation called ‘skin’?
One sensation containing or holding together other sensations? Is that so?

Vivien

[Kaisa]

The last post I submitted was mostly based on theories, so today I really tried to go into the experience of the body and put aside thoughts.

What is the experience of the body here now?
Isn’t body just a different label on sensations?

The experience of the body is color and sensations. It is an experience.

Is there anything to the body but sensations + colors?

Smells and sounds also, but mostly sensations and colors.

Are the sensations contained IN a body?
Or all there is to the body those sensations themselves?

Last time I wrote something like "the experience is going through and in the body" - but this isn't true. There isn't an inside to a color or inside to a sensation. Sensation isn't happening in the body, there isn't separation between sensation and "the body", there's just sensation.

And which sensation ‘of the body’ is masquerading as an experiencer?

Is the experiencer a sensation in the chest?
Or a sensation called ‘face’?
Or the sensation called ‘forehead’?
Or the sensations labelled ‘eyes’, ‘ears’, ‘mouth’?

Which sensation is the one that experiences this experience here now?
Isn’t that sensation itself is being experienced?

At first glance, it seemed like the head and the eyes were something, that experience was coming to or going through. But the experience of eyes is sensation, and the experience of head is also sensation. They are experiences, not the experiencer. I had a weird assumption, that thoughts were happening somewhere in the head, but that can't be. A sensation can't think. Thoughts are happening somewhere else, but that "place" can't be found. Emotions were also assumed to be happening inside the body, but they are at the same level as any other sensation.

And where is the dividing line between inside and outside?

The assumption was that skin was the line between the outside and the inside world (thoughts and emotions). This isn't true. The experience of skin is color and sensation.

What is the experience of inside and outside?
Inside and outside of what? The skin? But isn’t the skin just another sensation in experience?

Are other sensations being contained IN the sensation called ‘skin’?
One sensation containing or holding together other sensations? Is that so?

There isn't an experience of inside, it's just a thought - an image of the outline of the body and the concept of thoughts and emotions happening in it. Sensation or color can't contain anything in it or hold something together. There just isn't an inside in direct experience.

[Vivien]

Hi Kaisa,

You did a really nice investigation.

But the experience of eyes is sensation, and the experience of head is also sensation. They are experiences, not the experiencer. I had a weird assumption, that thoughts were happening somewhere in the head, but that can't be. A sensation can't think. Thoughts are happening somewhere else, but that "place" can't be found.

Yes, thoughts don’t appear in the head, or produced in the head. Since there is no physical location to thoughts. Thoughts just are, without appearing anywhere.

Now, let me go back to the previous questions I gave you. Please look with them again.

What does this experience happening TO?
Is there someone here having this experience?

Is the body the experiencer, or the body appears AS an experience?

What are you separate from right now?
Are you separate from this experience, being something other than experience and experiencing what is going on?

Is this very experience is separate from the knowing of it?

Is there anything outside of this here-and-now experience?

Vivien

[Kaisa]

Hey Vivien!

I need some more time with this one. Today was kind of busy and I couldn't investigate thoroughly. Nothing to do tomorrow, so I'll look into this and write to you then.

[Vivien]

All right :)