Intellectual seeker tired of seeking

[Vivien]

Hi Tom,

Some thoughts arise from immediate experience ("I feel hungry, I'd better eat something")

Let’s look at this closely.
Is this really true that some thoughts arise from immediate experience?
Can you observe (literally) that thoughts is coming from immediate experience?
Or rather there is a bodily sensation of hunger, and then a thought “I feel hungry”?
But is there any actual experientially link between the two, or it’s just a logical conclusion that the thought arose FROM experience?

Some thoughts appear randomly from the past (My first day at school as an exchange student in Japan)

Are certain thoughts literally coming from the past?
Or rather there are just thoughts appearing ABOUT the past?

When 'birthing' thoughts as ideas.

- I focus attention on a particular situation or problem requiring an idea to solve
- I wait for ideas to come
- I scrutinise every idea that arises, looking for holes in each one to determine a 'winner'
- If I find a 'winner', I feel relaxed and thought about the situation gradually subsides
- If I don't find a 'winner', I feel agitated and thought about the situation (and problem) escalates. Alternately, I give up my search (for the time being) and resolve to resume it later

Are you sure that this is your doing and not just happening on their own, automatically?

When 'birthing' thoughts as a reaction to events.

- A verbal thought of an unpleasant conversation comes up.
- I recall the exact words a person said to me and the exact words I said to them. At this stage, they are only words.
- I repeat this conversation in my mind, each word becoming clearer every time it is repeated.
- At some point, the verbal thought of the conversation develops into visual and emotional thoughts (Did they look upset/angry? Why did they speak to me that way? What do they mean by X? What does that say about me?)
- I try to resist the visual and emotional thoughts and they intensify
- I re-run the conversation in my mind focusing on what I should have said if I had the same opportunity again
- I feel tired, frustrated, misunderstood and sorry for myself
- I feel controlled by these visual and emotional thoughts which have resulted from this experience.
Are you sure that this is your doing and not just happening on their own?
- A verbal thought of an unpleasant conversation comes up.

Is this your doing (you are making it happen) or thoughts and internal conversations happen on their own?

- I recall the exact words a person said to me and the exact words I said to them.

HOW do you recall the exact words? What do you do exactly when recalling words? How do you make it happen?
Is recalling the exact words of a conversation is your doing, or it happens automatically, on its own?

- I repeat this conversation in my mind

You repeat the conversation? What do you do exactly for repetition happen?
Are you sure that it’s your doing?

- I try to resist the visual and emotional thoughts and they intensify

What do you do exactly to resist thoughts? How do you make the resistance itself happen?
Are you sure that it’s your doing?

- I re-run the conversation in my mind

Are you sure that you are making the re-running of contestation to happen? Or re-running happens automatically, on its own?

Vivien

[YouAmI]

Hi Vivien :)

Reading back through our posts, something of a realisation came up (more intellectualisation but will share anyway as it may serve the investigation):

- My thought-story intellectualisation of experience appears to be motivated by a desire (or assumed obligation) to explain 'why' something happens - possibly from a need to convince or justify a felt experience to others before it becomes 'real'.
- However, you have only ever asked about 'what' is happening, never 'why'
- For now, the 'what' doesn't have to make sense; the 'why' may come after waking up (depending on the question) but serves no purpose in the meantime.

Appreciate this was obvious to you already but needed to see it for myself. Will approach our investigation from this mindset in future.

Let’s look at this closely.

Is this really true that some thoughts arise from immediate experience?
Can you observe (literally) that thoughts is coming from immediate experience?
No, the thought does not (literally) come from immediate experience, it just happens

Or rather there is a bodily sensation of hunger, and then a thought “I feel hungry”?
Yes, the bodily sensation of hunger happens, then the thought "I feel hungry" happens

But is there any actual experientially link between the two, or it’s just a logical conclusion that the thought arose FROM experience?
No, there is no experiential link..
- The experience happened
- The thought happened
- The mind made a connection between the two ‘happenings’

Are certain thoughts literally coming from the past?
Or rather there are just thoughts appearing ABOUT the past?
Thank you for making this distinction, very helpful.
- The thoughts are not (literally) coming from the past
- The thoughts appearing are about the past, not from the past itself
- The past is a thought

When 'birthing' thoughts as ideas.

- I focus attention on a particular situation or problem requiring an idea to solve
- I wait for ideas to come
- I scrutinise every idea that arises, looking for holes in each one to determine a 'winner'
- If I find a 'winner', I feel relaxed and thought about the situation gradually subsides
- If I don't find a 'winner', I feel agitated and thought about the situation (and problem) escalates. Alternately, I give up my search (for the time being) and resolve to resume it later

Are you sure that this is your doing and not just happening on their own, automatically?

Here's the results of further investigation...
- Random thoughts are happening
- The thought of the particular problem emerges from the sea of random thoughts
- This thought gradually becomes more focused in attention while others fade into the background
- New thoughts start arising as potential solutions to the problem
- Each new thought undergoes scrutiny or 'testing' (by what, I don't know) in terms of its ability to solve the problem
- Some thoughts do not survive this scrutiny long and are quickly discarded
- Other thoughts remain longer in awareness - for each test that is 'passed', a new test appears to scrutinise it further (by what, I don't know)
- Sometimes one thought emerges as a clear 'winner', having passed sufficient testing to qualify as a solution (by what authority, I don't know). This results in a feeling of calmness/completion/contentment, new ‘thought ideas’ gradually fall away and the initial ‘problem thought’ fades back into the sea of random thoughts.

Based on this investigation, there is an awareness of thought ‘happening’ in various guises (‘problem thoughts’, ‘solution thoughts’, scrutiny and testing, decision making to settle on a solution, or not etc.) automatically but 'I' am not driving this.

When 'birthing' thoughts as a reaction to events.

- A verbal thought of an unpleasant conversation comes up.
- I recall the exact words a person said to me and the exact words I said to them. At this stage, they are only words.
- I repeat this conversation in my mind, each word becoming clearer every time it is repeated.
- At some point, the verbal thought of the conversation develops into visual and emotional thoughts (Did they look upset/angry? Why did they speak to me that way? What do they mean by X? What does that say about me?)
- I try to resist the visual and emotional thoughts and they intensify
- I re-run the conversation in my mind focusing on what I should have said if I had the same opportunity again
- I feel tired, frustrated, misunderstood and sorry for myself
- I feel controlled by these visual and emotional thoughts which have resulted from this experience.

Are you sure that this is your doing and not just happening on their own?
No - there is an awareness of thought 'happening' in different guises (visual, verbal and emotional thoughts of the conversation, analysis and interpretation of thoughts about the past) and resistance or identification with certain thoughts....but this is not my doing. It is just happening.

- A verbal thought of an unpleasant conversation comes up.
Is this your doing (you are making it happen) or thoughts and internal conversations happen on their own?
No, it is just happening.

- I recall the exact words a person said to me and the exact words I said to them.
HOW do you recall the exact words? What do you do exactly when recalling words? How do you make it happen?
Is recalling the exact words of a conversation is your doing, or it happens automatically, on its own?
No, 'I' don't make it happen. The verbal and visual thoughts of a conversation 'happen' automatically in awareness

- I try to resist the visual and emotional thoughts and they intensify
What do you do exactly to resist thoughts? How do you make the resistance itself happen?
Are you sure that it’s your doing?
No - feelings of resistance may arise in awareness that intensify certain thoughts or give rise to new ones but this is not coming from 'me'.

- I re-run the conversation in my mind
Are you sure that you are making the re-running of contestation to happen? Or re-running happens automatically, on its own?
No - the conversation is re-running in awareness automatically. If there was a 'me' driving it, surely that same 'me' would be able to stop it on command?

[Vivien]

Hi Tom,

- My thought-story intellectualisation of experience appears to be motivated by a desire (or assumed obligation) to explain 'why' something happens - possibly from a need to convince or justify a felt experience to others before it becomes 'real'.
- However, you have only ever asked about 'what' is happening, never 'why'
- For now, the 'what' doesn't have to make sense; the 'why' may come after waking up (depending on the question) but serves no purpose in the meantime.

‘Why’ questions are always intellectual, and the answer cannot be anything else than intellectual.
We are not trying to figure out why things happen the way they happen. Let’s leave those for the master speculators of this topic: philosophers :)

We are not philosophizing. We are completely leaving the realm of thought-content.

We are just noticing the immediacy of experience, WHAT IS. Without any speculation about it. BEFORE or UNDER the conceptual overlay.

Here's the results of further investigation...
- Random thoughts are happening
- The thought of the particular problem emerges from the sea of random thoughts
- This thought gradually becomes more focused in attention while others fade into the background
- New thoughts start arising as potential solutions to the problem
- Each new thought undergoes scrutiny or 'testing' (by what, I don't know) in terms of its ability to solve the problem
- Some thoughts do not survive this scrutiny long and are quickly discarded
- Other thoughts remain longer in awareness - for each test that is 'passed', a new test appears to scrutinise it further (by what, I don't know)
- Sometimes one thought emerges as a clear 'winner', having passed sufficient testing to qualify as a solution (by what authority, I don't know). This results in a feeling of calmness/completion/contentment, new ‘thought ideas’ gradually fall away and the initial ‘problem thought’ fades back into the sea of random thoughts.

Dear Tom, this is still analytical. All of you wrote above are concepts.
You are making reality, which is very simple, into a very complicated intellectual theory.

You can discard ALL the above.
None of these speculative stuff is needed.

With your above, you are describing the CONTENT of thoughts, and making a list according the content.

But the content is always irrelevant. And why am I saying this? Why the contents of thoughts are irrelevant in this investigation?

No - the conversation is re-running in awareness automatically. If there was a 'me' driving it, surely that same 'me' would be able to stop it on command?

The thing is that you’ve probably noticed that that you cannot stop your thoughts. So this is coming from looking. But then you jump to an intellectual conclusion that if thoughts cannot be stopped then they cannot be re-run either. But the question is whether you actually SEEING this when re-running happens, or rather you are relying on a logical conclusion only?

You have to go a step further than relying on logic. And actually check if the re-running of certain conversations are actually done, or they are happening totally effortlessly, on their own. So?

Try to birth a thought into existence. How do you do it EXACTLY?
What do you do exactly for this thought to appear from nothing?

And how do you decide what to think? How do you choose the topic?

Before you say “I’ve decided to think about a pink elephant” look very closely how you birth this deciding thought (of a pink elephant) into existence?

Can you know the thought of “I’ve decided to think about this or that” BEFORE this deciding thought has appeared?

Can you know this deciding thought in advance, BEFORE it is there?

Or you can know a thought (any thought) only in the moment when it’s happening, when it’s there?

Vivien

[YouAmI]

Hi Vivien :)

Dear Tom, this is still analytical. All of you wrote above are concepts.
You are making reality, which is very simple, into a very complicated intellectual theory.

You can discard ALL the above.
None of these speculative stuff is needed.

With your above, you are describing the CONTENT of thoughts, and making a list according the content.

Sorry Vivien, probably doing your head in at the moment (my teachers always said I was a 'late bloomer'). Trying hard but evidently in the wrong places. Not discouraged though so will go deeper, don't give up on me yet :)

We are not trying to figure out why things happen the way they happen. Let’s leave those for the master speculators of this topic: philosophers :)

Agreed - the futility of philosophy, logic and speculation brought me here.

But the content is always irrelevant. And why am I saying this? Why the contents of thoughts are irrelevant in this investigation?
The contents of thought are in imagination and therefore not real. The experience of thought itself is real so is relevant to the investigation.

The thing is that you’ve probably noticed that that you cannot stop your thoughts. So this is coming from looking. But then you jump to an intellectual conclusion that if thoughts cannot be stopped then they cannot be re-run either. But the question is whether you actually SEEING this when re-running happens, or rather you are relying on a logical conclusion only?

Thanks for pointing this out Vivien, you're exactly right - the first is a genuine observation based on direct experience; the second is a hunch based on speculation and logic.

You have to go a step further than relying on logic. And actually check if the re-running of certain conversations are actually done, or they are happening totally effortlessly, on their own. So?

Try to birth a thought into existence. How do you do it EXACTLY?

Before you say “I’ve decided to think about a pink elephant” look very closely how you birth this deciding thought (of a pink elephant) into existence?


Today's investigation attempted to explore these questions (which appear to be related) further so have grouped them accordingly.

Lying in bed with eyes closed, what is being experienced...

- The sound of music playing outside
- The sound of footsteps in the garden
- The sound of cars driving past
- The sound of a nearby train
- The sound of a plane flying overhead
- The sound of the wind blowing in the trees
- The sensation of fingers on the keyboard
- The sensation of a heartbeat in upper chest and neck
- The sensation of downward pressure between legs, feet, back, neck, elbows, arms and mattress
- The sensation of downward pressure between laptop and stomach
- The sensation of breathing and upward pressure between stomach and laptop
- Darkness in the visual field, but not complete darkness
- Small coloured dots dancing in the visual field

Thoughts start to come...

- A 'deciding thought' appears automatically with new content (a giraffe)
- A visual thought of a giraffe happens, then drops away
- A thought about seeing a giraffe at Woburn Safari Park happens, then drops away

- The sound of the tube passing by (emerging from silence, getting louder as it approaches, getting quieter after it passes, disappearing back into silence)
- A thought of travelling on the tube appears, then drops away
- A thought of being inside a crowded tube on a hot day happens
- The thought becomes more vivid, with imagined sights, sounds, smells and sensations (no breeze, hot, sweaty, uncomfortable, tired faces, entitled passengers etc.)…then drops away

What do you do exactly for this thought to appear from nothing?

'I' am not doing anything. There is nothing being done and no 'me' doing it. Thoughts are just 'happening' automatically.

- The 'deciding thought' that chooses the content of thought appears from nothing, it just happens.
- Subsequent thoughts also appear from nothing and of their own accord, they all just happen.
- Once thoughts appear, they remain in experience until they disappear of their own accord, at a time of their choosing.
- Immediately after a thought appears, the thought of 'me' steps in to take ownership as the 'birther' of the idea. This was experienced with 'deciding thoughts' in particular.

And how do you decide what to think? How do you choose the topic?

'I' don't :)
- The 'deciding thought' (using your terms) happens on its own
- The thought of 'me' appropriates the thought as its creator or 'chooser'

Can you know the thought of “I’ve decided to think about this or that” BEFORE this deciding thought has appeared?
No, 'I' can't

Can you know this deciding thought in advance, BEFORE it is there?
No, it's not possible

Or you can know a thought (any thought) only in the moment when it’s happening, when it’s there?
Yes, a thought can only be 'known' when it's happening. Knowing is experiential so thought can only be experienced in the present.

[Vivien]

Hi Tom,
S

orry Vivien, probably doing your head in at the moment (my teachers always said I was a 'late bloomer'). Trying hard but evidently in the wrong places. Not discouraged though so will go deeper, don't give up on me yet :)

It’s good that you are not discouraged, don’t be. There will be plenty of times when I will confront you with not looking. And don’t worry, I’m not giving up on you as long as you are honestly trying your best. And I can see that you are honest in your inquiry, so don’t worry :) I’m here to help.

'I' am not doing anything. There is nothing being done and no 'me' doing it. Thoughts are just 'happening' automatically.

Yes, so this is where you have to focus. This needs to be seen hundreds if not thousands of times, to really sink in. This is essential.

So I would like to ask you to stay with this for a whole day and investigate if there is any moment, any at all, when you are making a thought to appear, when it is YOUR doing.

Try to incorporate this into your daily life. Particularly play close attention to those moments when it FEELS or SEEMS that “I am thinking”. As soon as you catch it, stop for a moment, and investigate if this is actually true.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien

[YouAmI]

Hi Vivien :)

It’s good that you are not discouraged, don’t be. There will be plenty of times when I will confront you with not looking. And don’t worry, I’m not giving up on you as long as you are honestly trying your best. And I can see that you are honest in your inquiry, so don’t worry :) I’m here to help.

Thank you, really grateful for your guidance (and patience!). Please continue to call this out as you see it, very helpful :)

So I would like to ask you to stay with this for a whole day and investigate if there is any moment, any at all, when you are making a thought to appear, when it is YOUR doing.

Try to incorporate this into your daily life. Particularly pay close attention to those moments when it FEELS or SEEMS that “I am thinking”. As soon as you catch it, stop for a moment, and investigate if this is actually true.

Played golf today and repeated these investigations during the round:

1. Choosing a target and aiming the golf club

What it FEELS or SEEMS like: 'I am choosing the target, I am aiming the golf club at the target'
What is experienced directly:
- Seeing of a green in the distance surrounded by trees, bunkers
- Seeing of a red flag on the green and the flag emerging in focus (referred to here as TARGET)
- Awareness returning to body and its immediate vicinity, seeing of ball on ground, club face behind ball, club face attached to shaft, hands gripping top of shaft, hands attached to arms, arms joining with shoulders, toes of shoes either side of arms in peripheral vision (referred to here as ORIGIN)
- Sensation of pressure from hands gripping club, feet pushing down on ground, muscles tensing in calves and lower back
- Sensation of heat from sun on body, gusts of wind on the face
- Smell of suncream, freshly cut grass
- Sound of birds and wind in the trees
- Awareness shifts back to TARGET
- A deciding thought 'check position of club face' happens
- Awareness shifts back to ORIGIN, club face appears in focus
- Another thought 'right of target, aim further left' happens
- Sensation of wrists rotating slightly; seeing of club face moving slightly to left
- Another thought 'stop' happens; seeing of club face
- Awareness shifts back to TARGET; visual thought of club face (at last sight) happens
- Awareness returns to ORIGIN, club face appears in focus; visual thought of TARGET (at last sight) happens
- Another thought 'that's it, ready to hit' happens

2. Putting the ball on the green

What it SEEMS or FEELS like: 'I am putting the ball, I control where to aim and how hard to hit it':
What is experienced directly:
- Seeing of a hole on a patch of green 20 feet away and the hole emerging in focus (referred to here as TARGET)
- Awareness returning to body and its immediate vicinity, seeing of ball on ground, putter head behind ball, putter head attached to shaft, hands gripping top of shaft, hands attached to arms, arms joining with shoulders, toes of shoes either side of arms in peripheral vision (referred to here as ORIGIN)
- Sensation of light grip pressure between hands and club, heavy weight of putter head
- Sensation of breathing
*Aiming* (Similar process to point 1 above so won't repeat due to different focus of this investigation)
- Awareness shifts back to TARGET
- A deciding thought 'how hard?' happens
- Awareness returns to ORIGIN, ball on ground, putter head behind ball appears in focus
- Another thought 'how far back should the putter swing?' happens
- Seeing of putter head moving back
- Sensation of pressure in hands, wrists and forearms feeling weight of putter head as it goes back
- Seeing of putter head reaching top of its arc in peripheral vision
- Sensation of pressure in hands, wrists and forearms releasing as putter head returns to ball
- Seeing of putter head returning to ball and sensation of light 'bump' felt in hands and wrists when ball is struck

Both these situations were of particular interest since (until today at least), they have evoked strong feelings of 'I am doing this', 'It's up to my skills/technique/judgement', 'I cannot mess this up' etc. However, with each time these investigations were repeated (and they were done a lot over 4 hours!), it became clear that experience (of seeing, sensation and thought in this particular case) was just happening automatically and the thought of 'I' was stepping in afterwards to take ownership.

Interestingly, moving attention away from the illusion of 'I' and what it should be doing (I need to aim this further left, I need to hit it hard enough) to simply being aware of direct experience as it happened (putter head behind ball, head moving back, head moving through etc.) seemed to free up a great deal of tension that normally undermines good technique in pressure situations, especially when putting :)

In addition to those above, I could not find any other actions or processes that were truly MY doing after subjecting them to the same scrutiny of direct looking.

[Vivien]

Hi Tom,

Both these situations were of particular interest since (until today at least), they have evoked strong feelings of 'I am doing this', 'It's up to my skills/technique/judgement', 'I cannot mess this up' etc. However, with each time these investigations were repeated (and they were done a lot over 4 hours!), it became clear that experience (of seeing, sensation and thought in this particular case) was just happening automatically and the thought of 'I' was stepping in afterwards to take ownership.

You did a nice investigation :) Although the question was to particularly notice THOUGHTS, if thoughts are your doing or not.

So let’s spend another day, but this time focus exclusively on noticing thoughts, to see of thoughts are DONE or they appear automatically, effortlessly. Look if there is ANY THOUGHT at all, that isn’t happening on its own, but it’s done or thought by someone or something.

Interestingly, moving attention away from the illusion of 'I' and what it should be doing (I need to aim this further left, I need to hit it hard enough) to simply being aware of direct experience as it happened (putter head behind ball, head moving back, head moving through etc.) seemed to free up a great deal of tension that normally undermines good technique in pressure situations, especially when putting :)

Yes :)

Vivien

[YouAmI]

Hi Vivien :)

You did a nice investigation :) Although the question was to particularly notice THOUGHTS, if thoughts are your doing or not.

Understood :) Since most of yesterday was spent on the golf course, 'I' gravitated towards thoughts and thought processes as they apply to playing golf......but you're right - the question was about noticing thoughts generally.

So let’s spend another day, but this time focus exclusively on noticing thoughts, to see of thoughts are DONE or they appear automatically, effortlessly.

- Thoughts are appearing automatically, just happening on their own, there is no one and nothing 'doing' them
- There is no way to anticipate when a thought will come or what it will be about, until its upon 'me' in awareness
- Some thoughts appear for a brief moment before being interrupted by another thought, which then becomes the focus of awareness
- Thoughts appear one at a time and the content of each thought is completely random in nature

For example, the following thoughts were observed in the space of 30 seconds or so:
- 'Really need a coffee this morning, absolutely cactus'
- 'Can't wait until my holiday, really need some rest now'
- Memory of my first day at Primary School and meeting the kindly Principal Mr Witt.
- 'I should've booked a golf lesson for next Wednesday, I'll need to call up the Pro Shop so I don't miss out'
- 'Nice weather outside, why did I never notice that tree?'
- Memory of my wedding day...
- 'We've really got to get those thank you letters out, its been ages since the wedding!'
- Memory of my first date with Sarah..

Look if there is ANY THOUGHT at all, that isn’t happening on its own, but it’s done or thought by someone or something.
No thought could be found that wasn't happening on its own, nor could anything or anyone be found that was 'doing' the thought. There was just thought and its experience.

[Vivien]

Hi Tom,

You did a nice investigation.

Please experiment with these.

Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

Can you choose to fall asleep?
Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction, etc) of the physical sensation that will arise next?

Can you choose the next emotion, mood, attitude that will arise?

Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

Vivien

[YouAmI]

Hi Vivien :)

Please experiment with these...

Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?
No, ‘I’ can’t:
- The content of the ‘what to think about next’ thought (‘deciding thought’) is already there, happening, before it can be chosen
- The thought of ‘I’ steps in to appropriate the ‘deciding thought’ for itself as its supposed ‘chooser’
- Subsequent thoughts happen automatically to connect the ‘deciding thought’ with ‘my’ recent experience or life story. This makes it feel like the thought has been chosen and willed into existence.

Can you choose to fall asleep?
No (I wish!). Didn’t sleep well last night so managed to investigate this quite a bit :)
- Despite best efforts to stay with the thought ‘sleep just happens’, there was a definite sense of ‘trying to sleep’, which implied there was an ‘I’ trying to do it.
- Deciding thoughts (‘Need to get back to sleep’) and subsequent thoughts (‘Try sleeping on your left side’, ‘That’s not working, thinking too much’, ‘Listen to a podcast to distract yourself’ etc.) ‘happened’ but felt more like internal chatter.
- The content and intensity of these thoughts as they grew reflected a clear preference and strong desire to ‘sleep now’, however this did not result in sleep.

Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?
No, ‘I’ could not find the exact moment or point where ‘I’ chose to fall asleep.
- It felt like sleep only arrived at the point ‘my’ will (to try to sleep) was completely exhausted and ‘I’ had reached a genuine state of surrender and resignation that sleep would never ‘happen’ (then it did!)
- In addition to the absence of choice as to when / where / how to fall asleep, it was impossible to pinpoint the exact moment ‘I’ switched from being conscious over to dream state.

Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction, etc) of the physical sensation that will arise next?
No, the physical sensations were just happening on their own and completely at random.
- Tightness in the jaw
- Light vibration of blood pulsating in the fingertips
- Dryness and tightness in the throat from suppressed coughing
- Aching in the calves, thighs and lower back
- Contraction and releasing of stomach and internal organs from digestion
- Dryness in the eyes
- Heart beating
- Tight inhalation, open exhalation
- Dull headache behind the eyes

Can you choose the next emotion, mood, attitude that will arise?
No, the next emotion just happens on its own. The emotion is experienced or ‘felt’ before it can be chosen.

Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?
- At no point could ‘I’ recall willingly choosing the emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus.
- Once the emotion appeared and was ‘felt’, there was the sense of a decision being made around how to react to that emotion.
- However, the thoughts which informed this decision also just ‘happened’ automatically.

[Vivien]

Hi Tom,

You did a nice investigation.

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

Be careful not to think about the difference, rather look at experience to see the difference.

Look around, all colours are given, they are happening. It’s not that the me-character can choose and make colours that are present into different ones. Or choose not to see green and see pink instead. Colours are happening. Shapes are happening. Sounds are happening.

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?
And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

Now look, what is not given?

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an self-directed, autonomous entity?

Vivien

[YouAmI]

Hi Vivien :)

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

Happening is a manifestation of reality as it is in direct experience (colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation etc.) appearing automatically and independently of a perceived ‘doer’ (thought of ‘I’)
- The heat of the sun on skin
- The sound of birds singing
- The smell of lavender
- The green leaves on the trees

Doing is the appropriation of a ‘Happening’ by the thought of ‘I’ as its experiencer and creator, responsible for willing it into existence
- I feel the heat of the sun on my skin
- I hear birds singing
- I smell lavender
- I see the green leaves on the trees

When 'doing' things, there is a strong sense of 'I' (as Subject) interacting with or imposing 'my' will on the world 'out there' (as Objects) to make things happen.

Look around, all colours are given, they are happening. It’s not that the me-character can choose and make colours that are present into different ones. Or choose not to see green and see pink instead. Colours are happening. Shapes are happening. Sounds are happening.

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

Sensations too are just happening and experienced as they are. The me-character cannot do anything to experience them differently:
- It cannot change the taste of salt from salty to sweet
- It cannot change the feeling of velcro from rough to smooth
- It cannot change the feeling of a recently filled coffee cup from hot to cold
- It cannot change the sound a bird makes to that of a horse

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

Feelings are just happening. At the instant they are felt (before thought interrupts to label or appropriate), feelings are experienced as they are. The me-character cannot do anything to experience them differently:
- It cannot change the initial feeling of happiness to sadness
- It cannot change the initial feeling of repulsion to attraction
- It cannot change the initial feeling of fear to recklessness
- It cannot change the initial feeling of agitation to calmness

Now look, what is not given?

The me-character is not given.

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an self-directed, autonomous entity?

- The me-character is not doing anything in life. It only appears to be doing things by overlaying itself onto direct experience as it happens automatically.
- The me-character is not ‘given’ in the same way sensations/smell/feeling/taste/colour are because it cannot be verified through direct experience. In this sense, it is not given.
- The me-character is the content of a thought – a very powerful thought – but a thought nonetheless, so not real. This thought exists to maintain the illusion of a ‘self’, which has been cultivated through many years of conditioning.

[Vivien]

Hi Tom,

Thank you for your replies.

- The me-character is not doing anything in life. It only appears to be doing things by overlaying itself onto direct experience as it happens automatically.

And how does it do it? How does the me-character overlaying itself onto direct experience?
Is the me-character a self-directed, autonomous entity with its own will, who can perform actions like overlaying itself onto experience? Is this even possible?

Please be careful not to think about it, but rather check if you can actually find a me-character as it (literally) overlaying itself onto experience.

- The me-character is the content of a thought – a very powerful thought – but a thought nonetheless, so not real. This thought exists to maintain the illusion of a ‘self’, which has been cultivated through many years of conditioning.

And how much of it is clearly seen experientially, and how much of it is just understood intellectually? 50/50? Less? More?

When 'doing' things, there is a strong sense of 'I' (as Subject) interacting with or imposing 'my' will on the world 'out there' (as Objects) to make things happen.

This is where you have to put your focus on.

Watch like a hawk in your daily life, and as soon as this strong sense of I / subject appears, stop for a moment, and search for this I/subject. Find it.

Vivien

[YouAmI]

Hi Vivien :)

The me-character is not doing anything in life. It only appears to be doing things by overlaying itself onto direct experience as it happens automatically.

And how does it do it? How does the me-character overlaying itself onto direct experience?

Thanks Vivien for the pointer, my explanation was too conceptual. Here’s my next stab at investigation:

Looking at the monitor (from eyes closed)
- Open eyes. At this point, there is just seeing, a single image of colour, shadow and forms. No sense of a me-character
- Deciding thought to look at monitor happens
- Rotation of eyes towards monitor happens
- Monitor appearing in focus happens
- Surrounding objects in space blurring into background happens. At this point, a sense of separation between the monitor and surrounding objects in space happens
- Thought happens to label ‘monitor’ as separate from everything else (i.e. ‘not monitor’) being seen
- At the same time, another sense of separation between ‘Seer’ (Subject) and ‘Seen’ (Object) emerges
- Thought happens to divide the experience of seeing into a Seer ‘in here’ (Subject) and the Seen ‘out there’ (Object)
- With the monitor now being sensed as ‘out there’ in awareness, thought happens to label it as the Object
- With the Object of seeing now defined in awareness, thought happens to label the supposed entity perceiving the Object from ‘in here’
- At this point, the thought of ‘I’ comes up and is felt as the ‘Seer’ of the monitor

Starting from eyes closed, other actions (picking up a cushion, picking up a coffee, eating a sandwich) resulted in a similar observations, namely:
- Open eyes; just seeing, a totality of colour shadow and forms happens, No sense of a me-character, perceiver or experiencer
- Deciding thought of where to focus experience (of seeing, feeling, hearing, touching) happens
- Focusing happens, followed by the apparent separation of experience into ‘X’ and ‘Not X’. ‘X’ becomes clear in awareness, ‘Not X’ moves to the background.
- At the same time, the feeling of an ‘Experiencer’ (Subject; ‘in here’) being separate from the ‘Experienced’ (Object; ‘out there’) arises and the me-character appears
- Thought happens to label the focus of experience (X) as the ‘Experienced’ and the me-character its ‘Experiencer’ or ‘Doer’
- As focusing happens less, the separation between ‘Subject’ and ‘Object’, ‘In here’ and ‘Out there’, ‘Experiencer’ and ‘Experienced’ becomes less defined and the experiences themselves feel more natural and less forced as if they were ‘willed’ into existence by a me-character

Is the me-character a self-directed, autonomous entity with its own will, who can perform actions like overlaying itself onto experience? Is this even possible?

The me-character is not overlaying itself onto direct experience, it is just a thought (not a self-directed autonomous entity) so has no will of its own to do so. Instead, it is an illusory by-product of perceiving the totality of experience in terms of ‘this’ and ‘that’, ‘subject’ and ‘object’, ‘self’ and ‘other’, ‘experiencer’ and ‘experienced’.

Please be careful not to think about it, but rather check if you can actually find a me-character as it (literally) overlaying itself onto experience.

I couldn’t – the ‘thought’ of a me-character came up from time to time (especially when focusing on an object for the first time) but no me-character was seen ‘in the flesh’ doing anything.

The me-character is the content of a thought – a very powerful thought – but a thought nonetheless, so not real. This thought exists to maintain the illusion of a ‘self’, which has been cultivated through many years of conditioning.

And how much of it is clearly seen experientially, and how much of it is just understood intellectually? 50/50? Less? More?

Right now, probably 70 experiential / 30 intellectual. While no me-character has been found when searching for it in direct experience, its level of ‘stickiness’ as a thought-idea - which distorts experience into ‘Subject’ and ‘Object’ parts – seems to fluctuate with ‘my’ energy and alertness levels. Based on experience to date, alertness has actually been a barrier to seeing.

Too much alertness > too narrow a focus > clearer separation of experience into apparent ‘subject’ and ‘object’ parts > stronger sense of ‘I’ as the ‘doer’ of experience > body functioning feels forced and reliant on involuntary action.

By contrast, the most profound experiences of seeing so far have been in the middle of the night where there is no alertness, complete exhaustion and surrender to what is.

No alertness > too exhausted to focus > absence of focus maintains a wider awareness of everything and limits barriers forming between 'experiencer' and 'experienced' > weaker sense of ‘I’ as the ‘doer’ or ‘receiver’ of experience (actually 'I' disappears!) > body functioning feels optimal, effortless and truly automatic.

Obviously still more work to do to stamp out the intellectual stuff that remains but feel on the right track

When 'doing' things, there is a strong sense of 'I' (as Subject) interacting with or imposing 'my' will on the world 'out there' (as Objects) to make things happen.

This is where you have to put your focus on.

Hope I'm on the right track :)

Watch like a hawk in your daily life, and as soon as this strong sense of I / subject appears, stop for a moment, and search for this I/subject. Find it.

Looked for this ‘I’ all day every time it came up in awareness. Nothing.

[Vivien]

Hi Tom,

You did a nice investigation.

While no me-character has been found when searching for it in direct experience, its level of ‘stickiness’ as a thought-idea - which distorts experience into ‘Subject’ and ‘Object’ parts

Do you expect that thoughts about me should stop appearing as the result of this inquiry?
Do you expect that as the result of this inquiry the self illusion will stop appearing?

Do you expect that when the self is seen through, the illusion of the subject-object split should stop happening?

It’s important at this stage to deeply look at what you expect to happen. Since if you have expectations, you will be searching for your expectations, and not just to simply see what is here now in this moment.

When 'doing' things, there is a strong sense of 'I' (as Subject) interacting with or imposing 'my' will on the world 'out there' (as Objects) to make things happen.

Another question about expectations:

Do you expect that after seeing through the self, the illusion of control and doer should completely stop appearing? Or it’s enough to see it for what it is, just an illusory phenomenon, nothing more?

Now let’s go back to the inquiry.

Is the separate self doing anything in life?
Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?

What do you do right now for this to be?

Are you doing reading or reading is happening?
Are you doing sitting or sitting is happening?
Are you doing seeing or seeing is happening?

When 'doing' things, there is a strong sense of 'I'

Please describe to me this ‘strong sense of I’ as precisely as you can, without adding anything extra, just the raw facts of it.

How this sense of I is sensed? By which of the 5 senses?

Is there an I to sense?
If you say no, then what is it exactly that is being sensed? And how?

Vivien