Hello

[Tomahawk297]

And what answer do you expect? And what form?
Do you expect that a thought will come telling how things works?
Or what do you expect exactly?

I expect that the answer would be noticed, rather than a thought about it. Just a seeing of what is actually going on when “I think a thought”.

Is this investigation about waiting for an answer to arrive?
Or is it about noticing what is actually happening here now?

Looks like this was answered in the previous response :)

So please tell me what do you do exactly when you investigate those questions I gave you? What do you do exactly when you investigate the question ‘how do you decide what to think’?

While investigating the questions I simply notice what’s going on when “I think a thought” or “I choose what to think about”. When disregarding all thoughts and only noticing the process around the thoughts, nothing is found. It’s just emptiness and then thought as well as thoughts about thoughts.

Resistance and feelings of fear coming up during this investigation process. Strong impulse for distraction and the rising of justifications to dismiss this process. Quite a bit of anxiety showing its face.

[Vivien]

Hi Jared,

Resistance and feelings of fear coming up during this investigation process. Strong impulse for distraction and the rising of justifications to dismiss this process. Quite a bit of anxiety showing its face.

Thank, you for sharing this with me. Resistance and fear are important, since then can prevent you from going further. They show that there is a story about negative consequences to this inquiry.

So let’s have a closer look at this fear. It is here to protect. Can you see that? It’s here to keep something safe from something.

Can you look behind the fear and see what is there that needs this protection and from what exactly?
Does that protection help?
Is it needed?
What do you get from this protection?

Vivien

[Tomahawk297]

I spent about an hour last night, 30 minutes this morning, and then small intervals throughout the day looking for the fear to arise. I repeatedly returned to inquiring into thoughts and seeing again the nothingness around them, the absence of a thinker, the failing to be able to “make a thought”. But no fear came today to investigate. So instead I will be answering the questions based on what I saw yesterday afternoon (shortly after posting yesterday’s response).

Can you look behind the fear and see what is there that needs this protection and from what exactly?

When looking into the fear I saw that it seemed to be protecting nothing (Alternatively I could say sense of self, but ultimately it’s nothing). Once I saw into this it seemed to fall away and hasn’t yet returned.

Does that protection help?
Is it needed?

It does not help, it is not needed.

What do you get from this protection?

Reinforcement of illusory self. Unnecessary suffering.


During today’s investigation I also noticed several times when an unpleasant emotion would arise and whereas it typically lingers for a while and very slowly fades away, I’d ask “who is experiencing this emotion?” And then notice that it’s just passing by and there is nothing real for it to latch onto. Once this was noticed it dissipated rather quickly.

[Vivien]

Hi Jared,

During today’s investigation I also noticed several times when an unpleasant emotion would arise and whereas it typically lingers for a while and very slowly fades away, I’d ask “who is experiencing this emotion?” And then notice that it’s just passing by and there is nothing real for it to latch onto. Once this was noticed it dissipated rather quickly.

Beautiful :)
Now let’s go back investigating thoughts. I’m going to give you only one question this time. Please investigate this as often as possible during the day, even if just for 10 seconds each.

Are you making thoughts happen, you are thinking them, or they just appear on their own, effortlessly, and they are just NOTICED when they are ALREADY there?

Vivien

[Tomahawk297]

Are you making thoughts happen, you are thinking them, or they just appear on their own, effortlessly, and they are just NOTICED when they are ALREADY there?

I noticed over and over the pattern that seems to play out is a very subtle thought of “I am going to think”, followed by “I am thinking”, possibly followed by “I thought about ______”. But all that is there is the thoughts. Nothing real was noticed, only thought claiming to be the thinker.

There was also thoughts about efforting a thought into existence but that too was recognized as just a thought, no real effort.. only thought about it.

It’s all just thought which is noticed after automatically appearing into awareness.

When I’m not actively looking, though, the same program of self is running in the background. I feel as though there’s been a peeping through the metaphorical crack in the wall but the crack is so small it seems to take much focus to identify anything through the crack. And as soon as Focus is loosened or let go of, all that can be seen is the wall once again.

[Vivien]

Hi Jared,

I noticed over and over the pattern that seems to play out is a very subtle thought of “I am going to think”,

And when there is a thought “I am going to think” – then is this thought is thought by an I, a thinker, or even this thought appears on its own?

When I’m not actively looking, though, the same program of self is running in the background. I feel as though there’s been a peeping through the metaphorical crack in the wall but the crack is so small it seems to take much focus to identify anything through the crack. And as soon as Focus is loosened or let go of, all that can be seen is the wall once again.

That’s all right, we are just at the beginning of our investigation. So I’m going to give you several exercises to help deepen this seeing in the following days.

Try an experiment.

Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
What is making thoughts to appear?

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?

Experiment with these several times today.

Vivien

[Tomahawk297]

I don’t feel as though enough investigation was done today, will continue through tomorrow and then post.

[Vivien]

All right, thank you for letting me know. Have a nice day :)

[Tomahawk297]

Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?

All I find is thought. On a certain level there is an “I” who seems to be doing the thinking but I can also see this is not the case when observing closer. It’s just thought and noticing of thought.

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
What is making thoughts to appear?

Yes this is noticed when investigating. Nothing seems to be making thoughts appear, they just seem to appear. But, from a logical standpoint it seems that a collection of conditioned thought patterns and sensory data are what make thoughts appear. And that’s probably not even what makes them appear, but only what determines the content of the thought. I’m not sure, but that’s all irrelevant mind stuff it seems anyways.

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?

It doesn’t seem so. I can experience some time of no thought but one always eventually comes along. In meditation I can go for extended periods of no thought, but it always returns.

[Vivien]

Hi Jared,

You did a nice investigation.

. But, from a logical standpoint it seems that a collection of conditioned thought patterns and sensory data are what make thoughts appear. And that’s probably not even what makes them appear, but only what determines the content of the thought.

Exactly. It’s just the content. And the contents of thoughts are never real. They always fictional.

It doesn’t seem so. I can experience some time of no thought but one always eventually comes along. In meditation I can go for extended periods of no thought, but it always returns.

So you say that you can stop thinking during meditation, even if just a for a short period of time. Let’s try this out.

How do you make that happen? What do you do in order to stop thoughts appearing?

Sit for about 5 minutes (set a timer), and your only job is to NOT think a single thought for 5 minutes. Literally ZERO thoughts. Not even the thought of “I managed not to think”.

Stop thinking altogether. Not a single thought for 5 minutes. Can you do that?

After you’ve done it and probably failed, is there really a me who could manage stop thinking?

Or ‘I managed not to think” is part of the selfing thoughts of a person, Jared?

Is the lessening of thoughts the result of Jared somehow managing not to think, or the lessening of thoughts are just happening automatically?

Is the main character, Jared, has any power over thoughts?

Or thoughts just happen effortlessly, including thoughts about “I managed not to think”?

Vivien

[Tomahawk297]

How do you make that happen? What do you do in order to stop thoughts appearing?

It doesn’t seem that Jared can stop them from appearing, but periods of time without thought do happen during meditation.

Sit for about 5 minutes (set a timer), and your only job is to NOT think a single thought for 5 minutes. Literally ZERO thoughts. Not even the thought of “I managed not to think”.

Stop thinking altogether. Not a single thought for 5 minutes. Can you do that?

I tried this a few times and failed quickly each time, thoughts wouldn’t stop.

After you’ve done it and probably failed, is there really a me who could manage stop thinking?

No, no sign of thoughts being managed.

Or ‘I managed not to think” is part of the selfing thoughts of a person, Jared?

Yes, this thought is just a reinforcement of the illusory self Jared.

Is the lessening of thoughts the result of Jared somehow managing not to think, or the lessening of thoughts are just happening automatically?

It’s just happening automatically. I suppose the lack of sensory data during meditation is what sets the environment for experiencing less thought. But there’s not an I who decided to meditate, meditation just happens on its own. So there is no managing anywhere to be found that leads to lessening of thoughts.

Is the main character, Jared, has any power over thoughts?

Not at all.

Or thoughts just happen effortlessly, including thoughts about “I managed not to think”?

This is what has been found to be true during investigation. There’s no process that can be seen which demonstrates any managing of thoughts, the only thing found is the thoughts that Jared is managing thoughts.

[Vivien]

Hi Jared,

You did a nice investigation :)

Now, try to decide the next thought you are going to think. How do you make this decision?
Can you know what will be the chosen thought before this thought appears?

Experiment with this for a whole day, as often as you can.

Vivien

[Tomahawk297]

Now, try to decide the next thought you are going to think. How do you make this decision?

No detection of decision making was found. The thought just appears from nothing. With most thoughts there isn’t a very obvious “I” there making the thoughts and they seem “more automatic”. But when I try to “consciously decide” the next thought, although I see there is nothing there except for a thought appearing from nothing and then going back into nothing, I can also see the sense of self there taking responsibility for the thought. Although it is being seen in real time that there is nothing making or deciding the thought, it’s also being seen in real time the thought of self popping up and taking credit whereas when investigation is not taking place the self is more of a background program unnoticed.

Can you know what will be the chosen thought before this thought appears?

No. I can’t know anything until it already is. The timing of the thought and the content of the thought is just an automatic happening just as the heart beats, the hair grows, and the brushing of my teeth happens every morning. No thinker, no heart beater, no hair grower, no tooth brusher. The more I look, the more illusion of control is seen. How can there be control without a controller?

[Vivien]

Hi Jared,

With most thoughts there isn’t a very obvious “I” there making the thoughts and they seem “more automatic”.

“With most thoughts there isn’t a very obvious “I” there making the thoughts” – what is this very obvious I that is there and making thoughts?

You say that it’s very obvious. So if this I is very obvious, then you should have no problem whatsoever describing this I very precisely.

So look at this I that is making thoughts and describe what you see.

How big is this I that is making thoughts? What shape does it have? What color? Texture? Where is its exact location? What is its temperature? How does it smell?

Look very carefully with each of these questions.

If after lots of looking you say that there is none of those, then how can you say that this I is very obvious?
What makes it obvious?
If it’s obvious, then it should be super clear what it is, where it is, how it looks like, etc.. So?

can also see the sense of self there taking responsibility for the thought.

Sense of self taking responsibility? What is this SENSE exactly?
How is the self SENSED exactly? By which of the 5 senses?

The more I look, the more illusion of control is seen. How can there be control without a controller?

What makes you think that a controller is needed for a SEEMING control to happen?
And is a SEEMING control an actual control? Or it’s just SEEMS that way, like a mirage in the desert SEEMS like an oasis?

Your question is based on the assumption that there must be a subject, a doer, who/what makes things happen. This assumption comes from language, which is dualistic. (subject – doing – object)

Look at the clouds and rain and storms.
Is it cloud that does the raining? Or the rain that rains itself? Or is it water that does falling? Or certain conditions make raining happen?
And what is deciding to turn the rain into a storm or hurricane?
And what makes the rain stop? Is it the sky’s doing?
Is there a doer of rain? Is there something or someone making the rain happen?

Is it possible that no one starts the rain?
Is it possible that cloud doesn’t choose to rain?

Now look, what is it that is doing thinking? Is there any one making it happen, or it’s happening automatically, on its own?

Vivien

[Tomahawk297]

“With most thoughts there isn’t a very obvious “I” there making the thoughts” – what is this very obvious I that is there and making thoughts?

I should have put “seemingly making thoughts” here instead. It’s a sense of the seemingly real thinker. The thoughts about taking responsibility for making thoughts. But there is nothing there responsible for the thoughts, although it can seem and feel that way. There is thought about and a feeling of self. I can’t really describe it. It’s just like this feeling that follows along everywhere.

How big is this I that is making thoughts? What shape does it have? What color? Texture? Where is its exact location? What is its temperature? How does it smell?

I can’t find anything real. Only a sense of the seemingly real self. It seems kind of like a ball of thoughts and emotions which seems like it is Jared? I don’t really know. But during an ordinary day there is a sense of something which feels very familiar which is labeled as “Jared” and perception of reality seems to be shaped through the lens of “Jared”, whatever that is. But it’s not particularly pleasant. It’s just... familiar. Safe. What would Jared be if this familiarity was let go of?

It’s like there’s a smudge on my glasses lenses that has been unnoticed for a long time and they’re just now beginning to be noticed. Lots of hesitancy to get out the cloth and clean the lenses. But it’s just protection. Protection from the unknown, from the unfamiliar, trying to keep “me” safe. I am starting to see there’s nothing to protect, but it doesn’t feel that way.

I’ve been looking and looking. Inquiring about many things. A thought came which contained “I love driving”, I inquired “who loves driving?”. A thought came which contained “I hope I don’t get pulled over”, I inquired “who hopes they don’t get pulled over?”. A thought came which contained “I am thinking this thought”, I inquired “who is thinking this thought?” “How do you think this thought?” “Are you just a thought?”. I keep doing this over and over.

I don’t see anything.

If after lots of looking you say that there is none of those, then how can you say that this I is very obvious?
What makes it obvious?
If it’s obvious, then it should be super clear what it is, where it is, how it looks like, etc.. So?

I’m struggling to find anything concrete. I don’t know what it is. It’s not so obvious anymore. It’s actually extremely ambiguous. I’m prying for answers, I don’t seem to be coming up with much. Just a whole lot of thoughts, anxious emotions.. frustration.

Sense of self taking responsibility? What is this SENSE exactly?
How is the self SENSED exactly? By which of the 5 senses?

None of the above, I can’t find an answer. It’s just like a constant feeling?...

What makes you think that a controller is needed for a SEEMING control to happen?
And is a SEEMING control an actual control? Or it’s just SEEMS that way, like a mirage in the desert SEEMS like an oasis?

It’s not hard for me to see how thoughts happens without a thinker but I’m having trouble seeing how control happens without a controller. I’m not sure why. Maybe because control isn’t real at all, but thoughts are? Thought exists and so it can survive in non-dual reality but control does not exist so it cannot survive in reality which is non-dual. It can only seemingly exist in the illusion of duality because it is illusory itself.

It seems that way, but is ultimately illusion.

Is it possible that no one starts the rain?
Is it possible that cloud doesn’t choose to rain?

Definitely.

Now look, what is it that is doing thinking? Is there any one making it happen, or it’s happening automatically, on its own?

It’s happening automatically on its own. I keep investigating this over and over and I cannot find anything except for thought. No thinker, no decider, manager, etc.