Ready and waiting

[Clarrie]

Hi Vivian,
I apologise for the late reply. Plans changed unexpectedly yesterday and I didn't get back to my computer. But I did do my homework......

Is thought an entity which is aware of the hands, and thus can choose which one to raise?

Thought is not an entity. Awareness is different to thought.

Does the thought ‘left’ or ‘right’ know about the hands?

It feels like there is awareness of the hands. And there are thoughts. This awareness can choose to follow a thought, or not.
The thought is not the chooser.

Are thoughts actually choosing, or there are only thoughts ABOUT choosing?
Is a thought an actual chooser, or there is only a thought ABOUT choice?

This became more clear whilst driving yesterday. Thoughts were not involved in the actual driving. There was the thought that 'Im driving', the thought of the destination and even which way I was going to go was thought about before driving. And then there was the experience of driving.
Thoughts aren't actual choosers. If they were, then I would have run off the road a couple of times, and taken some wrong turns. When I was driving I was aware that I could have all manner of thoughts. I didn't need to think about driving, but driving still happened.

Am I getting warm?????....lol

warm regards,
Cx

[Vivien]

Hi Clarrie,

It feels like there is awareness of the hands. And there are thoughts. This awareness can choose to follow a thought, or not.

So are you saying that awareness can choose to follow a thought?
Is awareness the chooser?
If yes, how do you know that?

Please repeat the exercise again, and look very closely…

And can you observe (literally) that awareness choosing to follow a thought or not?

If you say yes, then you must clearly see awareness itself (separate from thought, and you have to be able to locate and clearly see it), and as you look at awareness, you must be able to observe as awareness performs the act of choosing. But is this so? Is this what is actually happening?

How does awareness doing the choosing of whether to follow a thought or not?
Can you tell how it’s doing it in the very moment as you observe this choosing process?

Vivien

[Clarrie]

So are you saying that awareness can choose to follow a thought?
Is awareness the chooser?
If yes, how do you know that?

Awareness is aware of whats happening. Not a chooser. So awareness not choosing. Thought not choosing. No separate me choosing. Has got to be that it just happens!! No chooser!! Nothing in control of choosing!! Well, thats left me a bit dumbfounded....lol

[Vivien]

Hi Clarrie,

You did a nice investigation :)

So is there anything that is not happening automatically? Anything at all?
Is there anything that is done by someone or something, and not already given?

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

Awareness is aware of whats happening.

Is this awareness separate from what is being aware-d (what is happening)?
Are there two ‘things’ going on? Awareness + what is happening?

Vivien

[Clarrie]

Hi Vivien,

So is there anything that is not happening automatically? Anything at all?
Is there anything that is done by someone or something, and not already given?

I can see that stuff happens automatically, based on present conditions. I can drive a car now, because those conditions are present. Based on previously learning to drive a car. If I didn't have that prior learning, then I wouldn't be able to drive. So driving a car is a given. It just happens. It rains, based on the presents of conditions. No one makes it rain. Raining happens. All thoughts arise due to conditions and cease due to conditions. No one controlling the conditions.
I have studied the law of conditionality from a Buddhist perspective. But never saw it as clearly as now. WOW!!

Is this awareness separate from what is being aware-d (what is happening)?
Are there two ‘things’ going on? Awareness + what is happening?

Funny you bought this up. I was contemplating this on my walk this morning, as I approached every bend in the track. Whatever is happening ahead only appears to exist when it comes into my awareness. Then a thought that If I don't watch the news tonight, then it didn't happen.....until its bought into awareness. (thats it....Im not watching the news any more...lol)
I'll look a little longer, but it does appear that nothing can happen independent of awareness. Therefore I think they must be the same.

Cheers,
Cx

[Vivien]

Hi Clarrie,

But never saw it as clearly as now. WOW!!

Great! :)

V: Is this awareness separate from what is being aware-d (what is happening)?
Are there two ‘things’ going on? Awareness + what is happening?

C: Funny you bought this up. I was contemplating this on my walk this morning, as I approached every bend in the track. Whatever is happening ahead only appears to exist when it comes into my awareness. Then a thought that If I don't watch the news tonight, then it didn't happen.....until its bought into awareness. (thats it....Im not watching the news any more...lol)
I'll look a little longer, but it does appear that nothing can happen independent of awareness. Therefore I think they must be the same.

It's not about whether things can happen independent of awareness or not. Those questions pointing to something else. But since you take the notion of awareness as a fact, you misinterpreted the questions. This how we all operate. It’s a very human thing. We interpret and filter everything through our beliefs and assumptions.

So, here are the previous questions again.

Is this awareness separate from what is being aware-d (what is happening)?
Are there two ‘things’ going on? Awareness + what is happening?

I was contemplating this on my walk this morning, as I approached every bend in the track. Whatever is happening ahead only appears to exist when it comes into my awareness.

This is how it SEEMS to be, but look, is this how it actually is?

Is there a stand-alone awareness waiting in the background for a thought to COME (or float) INTO it, and then it latches onto the thought with its knowing or aware-ing ability, so the thought can become known by it? Is this really how it is?

Oh, and you forgot to look at these:

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

Vivien

[Clarrie]

Hi Vivien,

OK. I've been out walking again this morning. This time on the beach.

Is this awareness separate from what is being aware-d (what is happening)?
Are there two ‘things’ going on? Awareness + what is happening?

No there's only one thing going on. Just what is happening. awareness can't be separate from whats happening. that would assume there was something being aware and separate to what is happening...a watcher. But there is no watcher, just a thought of one. And a subtle feeling associated with this thought.

Is there a stand-alone awareness waiting in the background for a thought to COME (or float) INTO it, and then it latches onto the thought with its knowing or aware-ing ability, so the thought can become known by it? Is this really how it is?

There is no stand alone 'receiver' 'awareness' or independent anything that I can find that is waiting for thought to arrive.
Thinking, doing, sensing, is all just happening at the same time. The whole package is the experience of the moment.

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

I couldn't find a 'me' character 'doing' anything. Just a thought of a me.

[Vivien]

Hi Clarrie,

You did a nice investigation.

No there's only one thing going on. Just what is happening. awareness can't be separate from whats happening. that would assume there was something being aware and separate to what is happening...a watcher. But there is no watcher, just a thought of one. And a subtle feeling associated with this thought.

And how does it feel to see this?

What has changed in normal everyday experience since the start of this conversation?
What hasn’t changed?
What is the main difference?

Is there anything that is not super clear, and you would like to look at?

Vivien

[Clarrie]

Hi Vivien,

And how does it feel to see this?

There was a moment on the beach when I realised that there was no 'me'. It was like all these threads pulled together. And there it was. No 'me' doing any of it. And it was 'uh hah'. There it is.
Definitely feeling a little lighter, more curious and not taking myself (or others) so seriously. Feeling like i want to go exploring now and re-look at things in life, more directly. There were some nihilistic thoughts there too initially. But then could see that experience conditions experience. Not just random chaos.

What has changed in normal everyday experience since the start of this conversation?

My perspective has been changing, and some major general assumptions/thoughts that I've been operating with have been seen through and are being replaced, or at least rattled, by direct experience. But I will need to keep checking and re-checking. I did notice today that there was a subtle overtone of 'less personal' but 'more intimate'. Hope that makes sense. I am really noticing others stories and unchecked beliefs. Just noticing. I've caught myself a few times too. They're soo ingrained and habitual.

What hasn’t changed?

What hasn't changed? Pretty much everything.

What is the main difference?

At this point... I know that there's no 'me', and there is definitely some ease associated with that, but this isn't second nature yet... most of the day it felt like just an idea that I kept consciously telling my no self, and constantly looking for the direct experience knowing instead of whats known by thought.

Is there anything that is not super clear, and you would like to look at?

I'm not sure yet that I'm super clear about anything. This feels like only the start.....lets see what happens next.

With much gratitude
Cxx

[Vivien]

Hi Clarrie,

There were some nihilistic thoughts there too initially.

When there is nihilism, in that moment the self is taken to be something real. So only a self could say things ‘there is no point for this or that’, ‘why bother if there is no me’, ‘what is the point of living at all’, and similar.

So the seeing of no self is being interpreted through the lenses of being a self. From the perspective of the dream. From the perspective of selfing thoughts. Can you see this?

My perspective has been changing, and some major general assumptions/thoughts that I've been operating with have been seen through and are being replaced, or at least rattled, by direct experience.

But do thoughts or thinking need to be replaced by direct experience in order to see that there is no self at the center, to see that the body is empty of a self?

Isn’t experience always on? Just as thoughts are always on?
Is there any time when there is no experience happening ‘under’ the constant stream of thought? Or maybe not under, but parallel?

Does this need to change? What for?

At this point... I know that there's no 'me', and there is definitely some ease associated with that, but this isn't second nature yet... most of the day it felt like just an idea that I kept consciously telling my no self, and constantly looking for the direct experience knowing instead of whats known by thought.

All right. Just notice the selfing thoughts throughout the day.

Selfing thoughts are almost always on. But just because they are happening and implying a self, does this mean that there is an actual self/me somewhere behind these thoughts, who is thinking these thoughts?

Is there anything that is not happening on its own?
Including the selfing thoughts?
Including noticing the selfing thoughts?

Is noticing of the selfing thoughts a doing or a happening?

Viviven

[Clarrie]

Hi Vivien,

So the seeing of no self is being interpreted through the lenses of being a self. From the perspective of the dream. From the perspective of selfing thoughts. Can you see this?

I can see that only a 'self' could say things like ‘there is no point for this or that’, ‘why bother if there is no me’, etc etc.
I was very much thinking about that insight on the beach whilst I was driving home. So the 'self' view jumped back in and was then reflecting on what had occurred on the beach. And, yes, it then did feel like a dream perspective. But the seeing was there whilst I was on the beach. So the obvious question is 'how to stop selfing thoughts from hijacking the situation?' Well clearly I can't stop them. There is no 'I' to stop anything...and do they need to stop?

But do thoughts or thinking need to be replaced by direct experience in order to see that there is no self at the center, to see that the body is empty of a self?

Maybe I need to stop thinking that I haven't 'done it well enough'. This is just more thoughts

Isn’t experience always on? Just as thoughts are always on?
Is there any time when there is no experience happening ‘under’ the constant stream of thought? Or maybe not under, but parallel?
yes....yes....no, in that order.
Does this need to change? What for?

.;
As long as one can recognise thought from experience, I guess no change is required. Good point.

Selfing thoughts are almost always on. But just because they are happening and implying a self, does this mean that there is an actual self/me somewhere behind these thoughts, who is thinking these thoughts?

There is definitely no 'me' thinking these thoughts?

Is there anything that is not happening on its own?

No

Including the selfing thoughts?
Including noticing the selfing thoughts?

No....and no

Is noticing of the selfing thoughts a doing or a happening?

Doing.

Thank you, that was helpful to see this expectation/assumption I had about 'selfing thoughts'. I guess they're likely not to lessen and what does this matter anyway. I'm off to work.....may your day go well.

Cheers,
Cxx

[Vivien]

Hi Clarrie,

So the obvious question is 'how to stop selfing thoughts from hijacking the situation?' Well clearly I can't stop them. There is no 'I' to stop anything...and do they need to stop?

That’s an excellent question!

Do selfing thoughts need to stop? Stop for who? Who has problems with the selfing thoughts?

Is it possible that wanting to stop selfing is selfing itself?

Maybe I need to stop thinking that I haven't 'done it well enough'. This is just more thoughts

You need to stop thinking? Do you make thoughts happen?
Can you stop thinking? Is it possible?
Is there any control over any thought?

Is it possible that “I need to stop thinking” is also selfing?

As long as one can recognise thought from experience, I guess no change is required. Good point.

So what is it that recognized thought from experience?

Is there a recognizer outside of thoughts, who could make distinction between the two?

Or recognizing, or not recognizing, just more thoughts on behalf of me?

V: Selfing thoughts are almost always on. But just because they are happening and implying a self, does this mean that

there is an actual self/me somewhere behind these thoughts, who is thinking these thoughts?
C: There is definitely no 'me' thinking these thoughts?

Is this a question or a statement?

Is there someone separate outside, noticing selfing thoughts?

What does selfing happen to?

Vivien

[Clarrie]

Hi Vivien,

Do selfing thoughts need to stop? Stop for who? Who has problems with the selfing thoughts?
Is it possible that wanting to stop selfing is selfing itself?

I would say that wanting ANYTHING is selfing...so yes. Thanks for pointing that out.

You need to stop thinking? Do you make thoughts happen?
Can you stop thinking? Is it possible?
Is there any control over any thought?

No haha...point taken.

So what is it that recognized thought from experience?

A thought.

Is there a recognizer outside of thoughts, who could make distinction between the two?

No

Or recognizing, or not recognizing, just more thoughts on behalf of me?

Just more thoughts on behalf of 'me'.

Is this a question or a statement?

There is definitely no 'me' thinking these thoughts?

Mmmmm. Didn't mean to put a question mark there....lol....its a statement.

Is there someone separate outside, noticing selfing thoughts?
No
What does selfing happen to?

Selfing is just happening. It doesn't happen TO anything/one.

Thanks again,
Cxx

[Vivien]

Hi Clarrie,

I would say that wanting ANYTHING is selfing...so yes.

Yes, exactly. All wanting and not wanting is selfing.

What else could want what is be different than what is?

Is there anything separate from what is, which wants this to be different?

Please look at these closely. Any time during the day, if you catch just the slightest wanting what is to be different, then inquire into. Probably you will have plenty of opportunities :)

V: I would say that wanting ANYTHING is selfing...so yes.

C: A thought.

A thought? Does a thought have an ability to recognize anything?

Is a thought aware? Is a thought aware of other thoughts and aware of experience?

Is there something separate that is aware of what is, of what is happening?
Is there something outside of what is, looking in, and noticing or being aware of what is happening?

Vivien

[Clarrie]

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for hammering this home. It's very much appreciated.

Yes, exactly. All wanting and not wanting is selfing.

Thank you for pointing out the 'not wanting' too.

What else could want what is to be different than what is?

Nothing. There is no other thing that would know 'what is' to know 'what isn't' or 'what could be different'.

Is there anything separate from what is, which wants this to be different?

NO!! Not even thoughts are separate from what is. They are part of 'what is'. They're just there too.

A thought? Does a thought have an ability to recognize anything?

Haha....no of course not.I made a whoops there.

Is a thought aware? Is a thought aware of other thoughts and aware of experience?

Thought is no more than a thought.....is not aware. Cannot be awareness. Awareness is aware of thoughts. Thoughts cannot know awareness.

Is there something separate that is aware of what is, of what is happening?

NO. No separate anything.

Is there something outside of what is, looking in, and noticing or being aware of what is happening?

There is just what's happening. Not even being aware of what's happening. Awareness/experience/what's happening/what is.....no difference.....all talking about the same thing, in this context anyway.

Cheers,
Cxx