Re: Guide newcomer
Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:07 am
**More awareness OF this thought as opposed to tastinG, sorry
Liberation Unleashed Forum The Gate
https://liberationunleashed.com:443/nation/
https://liberationunleashed.com:443/nation/viewtopic.php?t=7832
Thank you for your honesty and descriptiveness!basically what i noticed is that whilst drinking the coffee (in my case water), the thought of some Tei (my face) was there and there more awareness if this thought as opposed to tastin
So, the direct experience of drinking/looking/touching the cup/ was muddled up by thoughts.
No, there is no apple here because "apple" is just a thought (a 5-letter word/a thought ABOUT the real apple) which is SUPERIMPOSED upon the ACTUAL apple. So, there is only the ACTUAL what we call "apple" there on the table and THAT (the color of it) is the direct experience.1. Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Ok, so the THOUGHT of an apple can be experienced (when awareness "shines" on it), but the thought is obviously not the same as the ACTUAL apple. Is this what you are trying to make me see?2. Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
To know something I have to DIRECTLY experience it, whether that be taste, touch, seeing, ... something OBVIOUS and, well, direct. Can i know a thought of an apple? What do i know about it? The only thing that i can "know" about it, is if i think ABOUT the apple which is just more thought ABOUT thought (endless mental cycle, reserved for philosophers). But even that isn't really "knowledge" then, it's just more mental brainwashing that i was learned in school/by parents.Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?
Exactly! There is just the WHOLE IMAGE seen. No "things" that can be distinguished in Direct Experience (aside from thought story).No, there is no apple here because "apple" is just a thought (a 5-letter word/a thought ABOUT the real apple) which is SUPERIMPOSED upon the ACTUAL apple. So, there is only the ACTUAL what we call "apple" there on the table and THAT (the color of it) is the direct experience.
That is precisely what I'm trying to make you see! Thought Story will never be the Direct Experience. Thought just separates aspects of the whole to make "things" out of it. Pure illusion!Ok, so the THOUGHT of an apple can be experienced (when awareness "shines" on it), but the thought is obviously not the same as the ACTUAL apple. Is this what you are trying to make me see?
That is it! The exact difference between Direct Experience and Thought Content! Great!To know something I have to DIRECTLY experience it, whether that be taste, touch, seeing, ... something OBVIOUS and, well, direct. Can i know a thought of an apple? What do i know about it? The only thing that i can "know" about it, is if i think ABOUT the apple which is just more thought ABOUT thought (endless mental cycle, reserved for philosophers). But even that isn't really "knowledge" then, it's just more mental brainwashing that i was learned in school/by parents.
So in short, i can only become AWARE of the thought "apple" (whether that be a 5 letter word apple, or the thought of the juicy, red apple) so in that sense the thought can be known but the thought content cannot.
Same with taste, if you are eating an ice cream of chocolate and vanilla, the only thing making the separation and calling one "vanilla" and one "chocolate" is the THOUGHT CONTENT. However, there is only TASTE happening.
Am I going in the right direction with this or have i completely missed the point?
We are going to answer that because our next subject of inquiry is going to be the Nature Of Thoughts!Oh also, I just wanted to say that I think what was making me frustrated was that when i try to DIRECTLY experience something (for example LOOKING at something), thoughts AUTOMATICALLY come up.
So, let's say I'm looking at an apple. Even if i want to just DIRECTLY see the COLOUR of the apple, the thought comes up ABOUT the apple. Am i supposed to "relax" into the ACTUAL seeing and not let thought interfere?
They are seemingly coming out of nowhere and going nowhere. This kind of made me realize that thoughts cannot hurt me - even if i have a thought of sadness, pain etc. it's just an empty thought that has no reality.1. Where are they coming from and going to?
They happen on their own, but again this is just something I am mentally repeating, it is not a part of actual knowing. The more I THINK about this question, the farther i get from the answer, just like in the previous example.2. Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Well that is a rhetorical question, because I cannot go back in time and try changing it but thoughts just seem to appear randomly. "Moment" is something that is in time and time is imaginary so "moment" is just something that is appearing within awareness so no, I cannot change the thought because time doesn't exist and there is no "me" to change anything because Tei is just a thought as well and "change" is also just a thought..3. Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?
This is a tough one, basically, i can use the same example used before and what i did was i said to myself in my head "The next thought will be a potato" and boom, a potato appeared in the head. But this was when ATTENTION was going into the thoughts instead of AWARENESS.4.Can you predict your next thought?
No, i can't think about kittens all the time, because some random thought always comes up and steals attention away from the thought of a kitten. You can be aware of the kitten for, say, 5 seconds, but after that a thought comes up. But even being attentive of the thought of a kitten isn't really something "I" am doing right? It is ATTENTION being attentive of the kitten. But, if I go back to the previous example in which I realized that thoughts are happening by themselves, why is it possible for "me" to be attentive of the kitten? Like, if thoughts are happening by themselves, wouldn't that mean that it would take SOME TIME for the kitten to appear in awareness again, and ONLY ONCE it would APPEAR in awareness, only then could attention become attentive of it. However, attention can become attentive of the kitten AGAIN and AGAIN, right after some other thought interrupted this attention to the kitten.5. Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? Maybe think only about kittens or puppies for an entire day?
If one becomes some "spiritual weirdo" who puts himself in a trance for 24/7 (if that's even possible), then yeah, but if you are normal, then no, of course not, because they just come up randomly.6. Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
I don't think so, because even if you say to yourself "think of a lion", the thought of a lion already randomly appeared before you even said "think of a lion" and so that random appearance of the "lion thought" was the cause for7. Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
If i say "don't think of a lion", the next thought is a lion, so no. Also, I can't stop thoughts, they just keep occuring whether I like it or not.8. Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
The only thing i noticed in terms of the sequence is that, like I said, they seem to be about things that are happening (what awareness becomes aware of) in the room/place you are. So, if there is a computer in the room, there is most likely gonna be a thoughts about a computer. There was also my sister talking to some of her friends and i heard the conversation and the thoughts that were appearing were about my sister and her friends' faces and when my sister would be talking, her face would show up, when someone else, that guy's/girl's face, ...It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
Yes! We cannot pinpoint the place of origin or the place where a thought "goes to and vanishes". It just comes and goes automatically.They are seemingly coming out of nowhere and going nowhere.
That's a very beautiful point!This kind of made me realize that thoughts cannot hurt me - even if i have a thought of sadness, pain etc. it's just an empty thought that has no reality.
I admire this approach. There is a saying: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him". It means that there is no real authority and we need to seek answers for ourselves. We must question everything and never put ourselves above or beneath anybody.But then again, i contemplated this one again and came up with some different insights: I only HEARD that "they come out of nowhere and go nowhere" from spiritual teachers. AKA, I'm just mechanically repeating something I heard
Fair enough. We cannot use the thought story to put us in Direct Experience. There is however a space - which originates from SEEING our ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (not going into thinking). We just go Directly there.The more I THINK about the answer, the more hopeless it gets, because "space" is something I am imagining and so no matter what answer I come up with, it WILL be false. If I say the thought is "left" or "somewhere in the head", this presupposes space which is just an illusion. Also, for a thought to GO somewhere and COME OUT of somewhere, it must have a BEGINNING and an END, which are also just mental concepts.
So, in short, the instrument I am using to get an answer (thought) is not going to help me get the ACTUAL answer. So, I don't think I can answer this question.
If I look in my direct experience, however, again, I cannot say ANYTHING about where it comes from because that would just put me back in the mind.
1. When you "say something to yourself" - what really happens? Is there a "you" talking? Or is it ALL just thought content?They happen on their own, but again this is just something I am mentally repeating, it is not a part of actual knowing. The more I THINK about this question, the farther i get from the answer, just like in the previous example.
It seems like thoughts are random BECAUSE AWARENESS is random (it is choiceless) and so awareness goes into a sound, for example a bird chirping, CHOICELESSLY and then a thought ABOUT the bird gets superimposed upon it.
If i say to myself for example "think of a polar bear" it seems like "I" am the one who CAN predict the thought, but upon further examination it seems like the thought of a polar bear appeared BEFORE "I" could even make that statement in my head ("think of a polar bear") but then the one WHO WAS THINKING up the statement "think of a polar bear" seemed to be "me".
Ok. Very well.Well that is a rhetorical question, because I cannot go back in time and try changing it but thoughts just seem to appear randomly. "Moment" is something that is in time and time is imaginary so "moment" is just something that is appearing within awareness so no, I cannot change the thought because time doesn't exist and there is no "me" to change anything because Tei is just a thought as well and "change" is also just a thought..
5. Who said that "the next thought will be a potato?" Aside from thought - did anyone appear? Or was it just a thought?This is a tough one, basically, i can use the same example used before and what i did was i said to myself in my head "The next thought will be a potato" and boom, a potato appeared in the head. But this was when ATTENTION was going into the thoughts instead of AWARENESS.
When i asked myself, however, "What will the next thought be?", a random thought appeared, so no, there is no way i can predict a thought. But i am not sure of this, i am just speculating here.
7. Who asked who? Where - aside from thought - is that person?6. When i asked myself, however, "What will the next thought be?"
Don't worry my dear friend - we will cover attention later. I can see that you agree - from Direct Experience - that we cannot choose to have only a certain thought/thoughts with us. There is always another thought - which pops up - out of nowhere.No, i can't think about kittens all the time, because some random thought always comes up and steals attention away from the thought of a kitten. You can be aware of the kitten for, say, 5 seconds, but after that a thought comes up. But even being attentive of the thought of a kitten isn't really something "I" am doing right? It is ATTENTION being attentive of the kitten. But, if I go back to the previous example in which I realized that thoughts are happening by themselves, why is it possible for "me" to be attentive of the kitten? Like, if thoughts are happening by themselves, wouldn't that mean that it would take SOME TIME for the kitten to appear in awareness again, and ONLY ONCE it would APPEAR in awareness, only then could attention become attentive of it. However, attention can become attentive of the kitten AGAIN and AGAIN, right after some other thought interrupted this attention to the kitten.
Point being - if that is even possible! Exactly!If one becomes some "spiritual weirdo" who puts himself in a trance for 24/7 (if that's even possible), then yeah, but if you are normal, then no, of course not, because they just come up randomly.
You can see this happening all the time. Some random thought pops up and we might speak it out loud. Somebody can compliment us on our "good thinking" but - since you are not the one "doing the thinking" - is there anything to be complimented for?I don't think so, because even if you say to yourself "think of a lion", the thought of a lion already randomly appeared before you even said "think of a lion" and so that random appearance of the "lion thought" was the cause for
Very nice!If i say "don't think of a lion", the next thought is a lion, so no. Also, I can't stop thoughts, they just keep occuring whether I like it or not.
And you have no control over that either! That's it!The only thing i noticed in terms of the sequence is that, like I said, they seem to be about things that are happening (what awareness becomes aware of) in the room/place you are. So, if there is a computer in the room, there is most likely gonna be a thoughts about a computer. There was also my sister talking to some of her friends and i heard the conversation and the thoughts that were appearing were about my sister and her friends' faces and when my sister would be talking, her face would show up, when someone else, that guy's/girl's face, ...
Do them on your terms. The goal of those exercises is to make you SEE certain aspects from Direct Experience and dismantle any beliefs (repeated thoughts) that still linger.Also, when I do these exercises, am I supposed to do them throughout the entire day as much as possible or just do it once and wait for your answer? Because there are LOTS of different exercises we have already done and so which one should I be doing?
We will get into that also - after this section is seen. Let's not put too much on ourselves at one time! Don't worry dear Tei!Also, when I do these exercises, am I supposed to do them throughout the entire day as much as possible or just do it once and wait for your answer? Because there are LOTS of different exercises we have already done and so which one should I be doing?
And I also noticed that it's way easier to observe thoughts if you are FIRST aware of, say, sound or peripheral sight/whole field of vision. I guess that is because when you are aware of some sense door (sight, smell etc.) the thoughts that will come up will be ABOUT these sights, sounds, ... whereas if I am "just observing thoughts", it's MUCH harder because there is no anchor to the present moment (which would in the previous case be sound/sight) and attention just keeps going into thoughts and I have trouble even seeing thoughts.. it's just a mess. And so, in the previous exercise when I had to "note" (seeing, smeeling etc) it was WAY easier to observe thoughts that way and I presume that is the case precisely because of the aforementioned example.
P.S. i think i figured it out, if i place myself in the headspace it seems like thoughts are like a movie, occuring there and so i don't know if that works for others but for me it seems to.