Forgetting Myself

[Vivien]

Hi Gabe,

Yes. I'm aware of thinking happening. Although I'm not sure how I'm aware of it, if not through my five senses. Is thought a sixth sense?

We don’t have to categorize thinking into anything. It’s just happens and that’s all.

What I can see from your replies that you are living in your head. You are trying to understand everything with thinking and thinking.

But this won’t help in this inquiry. It’s completely a dead-end.

So, we have to change the direction of this inquiry, if you want to succeed.

It would be anything that was there, but which I am not currently experiencing. Like my kitchen, and all its contents--which no one is currently experiencing. Like the experiences of other people--which aren't directly shared by me.

Dear Gabe, this is just more thinking, more speculating. You are making it into a philosophical question, whether things and people exist when they are not directly observed. This is an adequate question in a philosophical course, where you are considering all sorts of IDEAS, but it’s a complete dead-end in this inquiry.

Since this question has no connection to the concept of me.

For our investigating we use the everyday terminology, that thing that can be experienced are still exist when not looked at directly. Just as if your kitchen won’t disappear just because your turned your back on it.

We are not going into speculations that what happens with the kitchen when I’m in the supermarket. That would be only a speculation, just more thinking, creating more confusion.

There is also, I think, resistance because I can't imagine experience divorced from thinking about experience. I hear a sound from the next room, and I can't prevent thinking about the sound

We are not trying to manipulate thoughts about the sound not to appear. We are not trying to stop thinking. That’s impossible.

Why would we want to do that? We are not trying to manipulate ourselves into a special state where there is no thought commentary / narration about what is happening.

It’s not about stopping the thought commentary. Not at all. It’s about shifting the focus form thinking to experiencing. But the commentary still goes on in the background.

If it can be experienced, then the only way to experience it is to experience it, not to explain the experience.

Exactly. You are making it so complicated, while it’s so simple. This whole complication is coming from thinking and thinking and more thinking. You put way too much emphasis on thinking instead of experiencing.

Do you see that regardless of thinking, experience is always on, always happening?

You are just ignoring it, since your focus is on thinking and not what is actually happening. Do you see this?

The same way you can shift your focus from thinking to experiencing. So thinking goes to the background, and experience in the foreground. That’s all.

Here is a little exercise to help to see this clearly.

And by the way, in order to be able to stop thinking, first, you have to be the thinker of thoughts. But are you?

But going back to your comment.

It’s not about stopping thinking altogether. No. It’s NOT FOCUSING on the thoughts that are arising. Rather SHIFTING your attention to the immediacy of experience.

Look at an object, like a cup.
And as you look at the cup and EXPERIENCE it by SEEING, do you see that thoughts come and go?

Thoughts might ‘talk’ about the cup being seen, or about something totally unrelated.
But, experience/seeing happens REAGARDLESS of the presence of thoughts. Do you see this?

Is there any effort in seeing (meaning experiencing) the cup in front of you?
Or seeing happens effortlessly regardless of the presence of thoughts?

Now take the cup into your hands.
Now, experiencing the cup happens not just be seeing it, but by feeling it.

Notice the thoughts that come up that might talk about how the cup look like, how it feels, or might a story come up about the cup.

But while all these thoughts happen, the experiencing of the cup never stops!
It’s constantly seen and felt.

And you have two options.
You can either listen to the thoughts stories about the cup, or you can SHIFT your ATTENTION to experiencing, seeing and feeling it.

When you focus on the thoughts ABOUT the cup, the experience of the cup is in the background hardly noticed.
But if you shift the focus on experiencing, then thoughts go to the background.

And you just ignore the thoughts in the background by not giving attention to them, since your focus is on seeing and feeling and not on thinking.

Do you see where I am getting at?

So when I say that you don’t need your intellect, it just simply means that you don’t have to turn to thinking and thinking about the self, creating stories and speculations about it, rather you shift your focus on EXPERIENCE the self, just as you can experience the cup by seeing, feeling, etc.

There is a fear of what it means if the self is just an illusion.

And what do you think, what it means if the self is just an illusion? Please tell me a bit more about what you are afraid of exactly.

There is also a fear of having an experience of something which is not true.

Also, could you tell a bit more about this? What is it that you are afraid of? Could you please give some examples?

Vivien

[adrivenleaf]

Do you see that regardless of thinking, experience is always on, always happening?

You are just ignoring it, since your focus is on thinking and not what is actually happening. Do you see this?

Yes.

And as you look at the cup and EXPERIENCE it by SEEING, do you see that thoughts come and go?

Thoughts might ‘talk’ about the cup being seen, or about something totally unrelated.
But, experience/seeing happens REAGARDLESS of the presence of thoughts. Do you see this?

Is there any effort in seeing (meaning experiencing) the cup in front of you?
Or seeing happens effortlessly regardless of the presence of thoughts?

Yes. I see that there is the experience of seeing the cup, and I see thoughts telling stories about the cup. The only effort required is to look.

Do you see where I am getting at?

I think I do, yes. And I do feel like I can do what you're asking, and investigate experience itself without engaging with the thought-stories.

And what do you think, what it means if the self is just an illusion? Please tell me a bit more about what you are afraid of exactly.

I don't know what I think the realization would be like, and that's what I am afraid of. Of it causing pain. Of it making things feel harder or less meaningful.

Also, could you tell a bit more about this? What is it that you are afraid of? Could you please give some examples?

The first example that comes to mind is of patients I've worked with who have seen and felt bugs crawling over their bodies, who have heard sounds no one else can hear, etc. Their experiencing is real, but the experience is not of something real.

[Vivien]

Hi Gabe,

I don't know what I think the realization would be like, and that's what I am afraid of. Of it causing pain. Of it making things feel harder or less meaningful.

So you are imagining that ‘awakening’ could cause pain and making things harder and meaningless. It’s a scary image, but that’s all. This is just an imagined scenario. A fearful fantasy. But I can assure you, it’s none of these. Seeing through the self doesn’t case pain, don’t make things feel harder and or less meaningful. If it does anything, is just the opposite.

These are just fearful ideas you’ve created, and now you are afraid of your own creation. Can you see this?

The first example that comes to mind is of patients I've worked with who have seen and felt bugs crawling over their bodies, who have heard sounds no one else can hear, etc. Their experiencing is real, but the experience is not of something real.

You are talking about psychosis with hallucinations. And their hallucinations are NOT real, they just BELIEVE them to be real. And psychosis or hallucination has nothing to do with seeing through the self illusion.

But, if you have had psychotic episodes in your life, or other serious mental illness, like clinical depression with suicidal thoughts, then this investigation is not for you. But otherwise, it’s just a fearful story to scare yourself.

Would you say that you are mentally stable and you don’t have any serious mental illness?

But I’m curious, how have to come to the conclusion that seeing the facts of reality, seeing that there is no person inside the body orchestrating life, could be a psychotic hallucination?

Vivien

[adrivenleaf]

These are just fearful ideas you’ve created, and now you are afraid of your own creation. Can you see this?

I think I do, but sometimes the contents of my thoughts do reflect reality... in the sense that they are representing something real. If I were about to open a door to a room I've never been in, I might create a fearful--but plausible--idea about what could be behind it.

I would be afraid only of my own creation up until the point I opened the door and the thing I was afraid of was actually there.

I can, however, choose to believe you that doing this won't cause pain or a sense of meaninglessness.

Would you say that you are mentally stable and you don’t have any serious mental illness?

I have clinical depression, which has been managed for years. I've never had any psychotic episodes or been suicidal.

But I’m curious, how have to come to the conclusion that seeing the facts of reality, seeing that there is no person inside the body orchestrating life, could be a psychotic hallucination?

My understanding is that we're talking about raw experience, without using thinking to evaluate or interpret it, to be absolutely certain that there is no self. I want to know how, without the use of thinking, I can be sure that the experience of no-self was true, without having the usual tools to evaluate my experience.

People join cults, people have serious mental illnesses, people can do drugs, people can be brainwashed into experiencing things that other people don't experience. When you had the experience of no self, how were you certain that it was true?

[Vivien]

Hi Gabe,

I think I do, but sometimes the contents of my thoughts do reflect reality...

Yes, some thoughts represents reality. But the emphasis on the word ‘represents’.
Since a thought (even if it’s represents something real) is still not a real thing.
The thought ‘chair’ represents a real thing that you can sit on, but the thought itself is NOT REALITY.

I would be afraid only of my own creation up until the point I opened the door and the thing I was afraid of was actually there.

Dear Gabe, you are thinking too much into it.

Look, it’s totally up to you whether you want to do this inquiry or not. But we haven’t started yet, we are just circling around the bicycle, instead of actually sitting on it and trying out how it feels to ride a bike.

So you have to decide what you want to do.

In a scale of 1-10 how strong is your desire to see through the self-illusion?

And in a scale of 1-10 how strong is your fear?

My understanding is that we're talking about raw experience, without using thinking to evaluate or interpret it, to be absolutely certain that there is no self. I want to know how, without the use of thinking, I can be sure that the experience of no-self was true, without having the usual tools to evaluate my experience.

Because the only sure thing what is here right now. What is actually experienced. Thoughts are never ever reality. They might point to reality, or represents a real thing as a symbol, but by themselves they are never ever real.

And the bases of this inquiry to see this clearly.

People join cults, people have serious mental illnesses, people can do drugs, people can be brainwashed into experiencing things that other people don't experience.

Yes, these things can happen. But all brainwashing happens on the level of thinking! Brainwashing is believing something without actually experiencing it. Believing happens only in thinking!

Look, if you are afraid of being brainwashed or being talked into something, then no matter what I say won’t change anything for you, because you can always think that maybe I am trying to brainwash you right now :)

When you had the experience of no self, how were you certain that it was true?

Because I can see in experience that there is no self. Not because I think that there is no self. Not because I believe that there is no self. But because I actually see in experience that where I assumed the self to be, is simply not there.

Vivien

[adrivenleaf]

In a scale of 1-10 how strong is your desire to see through the self-illusion?

9

And in a scale of 1-10 how strong is your fear?

6

So you have to decide what you want to do.

If it can't be understood without trying it, then perhaps I'll be able to understand it afterwards. Let's go.

[Vivien]

Hi Gabe,
All right :)


What is a person? - define in your own words

Is a person an entity or a concept?

Vivien

[adrivenleaf]

What is a person? - define in your own words

A person is another human being. Like me, but not me.

Is a person an entity or a concept?

A person is an entity.

[Vivien]

Hi Gabe,

But isn’t the word ‘person’ is just a label on a body?

Isn’t a person supposed to be SOMEONE being INSIDE the body, thinking thoughts, feeling sensations and making decisions?

Look at your hands.

Does it feel like that you are somewhere inside the head, from where you look at your hands?

Are the hands you, or you have hands?

Vivien

[Vivien]

Hi Gabe,

So you use the word ‘person’ as a different label on the body?

Isn’t a person supposed to be SOMEONE being INSIDE the body, thinking thoughts, feeling sensations and making decisions?

Look at your hands.

Does it feel like that you are somewhere inside the head, from where you look at your hands?

Are the hands you, or you have hands?

Vivien

[adrivenleaf]

Hi Vivien,

I'm not sure why I didn't get a notification for your last responses, so I apologize for the delay.

So you use the word ‘person’ as a different label on the body?

Isn’t a person supposed to be SOMEONE being INSIDE the body, thinking thoughts, feeling sensations and making decisions?

I use "person" to refer to the body and the consciousness in it. The best way I can think of to describe it is like when I say "car" I mean the whole thing including the wheels. I don't mean that the wheels are the car, or that they are the most important part of the car, but it's not really a car without them.

Does it feel like that you are somewhere inside the head, from where you look at your hands?

Are the hands you, or you have hands?

Yes.

I have hands.

[Vivien]

Hi Gabe,

I'm not sure why I didn't get a notification for your last responses, so I apologize for the delay.

The site isn’t always working perfectly, and sometimes there are no notifications sent. But it also could end up in your spam folder. Anyway, I’m almost always reply in 24 hours or often sooner, so if you don’t hear from me, please check the forum directly.

I have hands.

OK. Now let’s go a step further.

What is it that claims that “I have hands”?

Where is the I, which owns the hands?

Search for this I. Search through the whole body from head to toe, and look for the I, which has hands.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien

[adrivenleaf]

What is it that claims that “I have hands”?

Where is the I, which owns the hands?

Search for this I. Search through the whole body from head to toe, and look for the I, which has hands.
Let me know what you find.

I don't know how to answer the first question using only my physical senses, rather than using ideas/the contents of thinking to say something like "awareness".

It feels to be inside my head.

[Vivien]

Hi Gabe,

I don't know how to answer the first question using only my physical senses, rather than using ideas/the contents of thinking to say something like "awareness".

You’ve noticed something very interesting here. You can only talk about concepts, but about a real thing.

It feels to be inside my head.

Are you saying that the owner of the hands FEELS to be inside the head?

You say ‘MY head’ – so that thing inside is both the owner of the head and the hands?

Find the exact location of this owner inside the head. Pin point it with millimetre or a quarter of inch precision.
Where is its location exactly?

Vivien

[adrivenleaf]

Are you saying that the owner of the hands FEELS to be inside the head?

You say ‘MY head’ – so that thing inside is both the owner of the head and the hands?

Find the exact location of this owner inside the head. Pin point it with millimetre or a quarter of inch precision.
Where is its location exactly?

Yes, to the first two questions.

I can't; I can't experience it directly with my physical senses.