Looking for a guide to help the process. Would appreciate any tips.

[Sandee]

1) Think of a map of your state. It has roads and rivers and traintracks on it, along with counties and cities. Get a topographical map, and you get details of the land, elevations. Get a list of deeds from the county, it tells you who owns each house. Go on Google machine, you get a satellite photo of the tops of everyone' s homes. On one or more of these maps is the name of your town. I'll use Denver as an example, you use your own town. What exactly defines Denver? We accept it at face value. Outside, there are metal signs that say "Denver". Now there is actually a line on a map somewhere that correlates to some survey....a line inside which is "Denver". Can we find that line on the ground?

**Tell me about this.

**What is it that makes the concept of Denver really Denver?

**What does the metal sign "Denver" point to specifically?

The line can't be found on the ground. Denver is an idea or a thought. It is a thought a bunch of people use, sometimes when they think about craft beer. "Ah, Denver." Or Blucifer. "Ah, Denver." High housing prices. "Ah, Denver."

What makes the concept of Denver really Denver? Hmm, a number of people seem to share the idea it exists and where it exists. But there is no Denver per se. At most it's an area within a boundary, and that boundary was, at one point, collectively agreed upon.

The metal sign "Denver" is pointing to an area that was designated on a map as Denver.

**You start to see the difference between your conceptual world and the real world. Where do you suppose the concept of "I" is going to fall? Why?

At the moment, in between. Mostly because it "feels" like and "I" is there, whether one is making it up or not, it's there. "Love" or "hate" can't be seen, but there are examples of it, demonstrations of their effects both as feelings internally and outside of one's body. (Though I haven't really explored whether those concepts exist as realities yet, outside of personal feelings, to be fair.)

**Is this personality made up of anything other than thoughts in your head? (thoughts that describe, memories/sounds of George's voice and facial expressions, picturing him sleeping under his desk, etc.)

Nope. The personality is projected on. The tree is nothing like Costanza. The tree is not trying to get into a party using a photo of a fake ex-girlfriend. (Not that I know of.)

[SeeEye]

Hi Sandee,

Cruising right along here.

The metal sign "Denver" is pointing to an area that was designated on a map as Denver.

When you see the metal sign you pull out a map? When you are standing next to the sign, you "feel" Denver in front of you, and non-Denver behind you? At 30,000 ft, an airplane crosses the invisible "Denver" line that extends into the next galaxy....and what happens? Nothing. If you closed your eyes or sleepwalked, you wouldn't know Denver at all.

The point of the metaphor is to get you to look past the convention and find that no-THING really attaches to that concept.

1) Really think on this. The sign points to no-thing at all! It points to a rough approximation that can't be reduced any further.

We are taught as convention that a sign HAS to point to something. That a tree is the label "tree". Your parents and grandparents and teachers all clapped for you because you repeated this. You FELT good about this. You were told good girl and you are smart. This is both a metaphor, and somewhat of a sidebar that is the cause of a lot of suffering....because it's never looked into and un-learned. The tree is not the label, you are not the label.

A (Though I haven't really explored whether those concepts exist as realities yet, outside of personal feelings, to be fair.)

This is exactly what you need to do now. Personal feelings, hunches, "somebody said"....let's go past this and find ot for yourself.

At the moment, in between. Mostly because it "feels" like and "I" is there, whether one is making it up or not, it's there. "Love" or "hate" can't be seen, but there are examples of it, demonstrations of their effects both as feelings internally and outside of one's body.

Love and Hate can be argued based on use-case, who benefits, what your preferences are. You could tell a child it's an act of love to get her to brush her teeth, and she would say an act of hate. Before we whack that hive, lets stay on the self.

2) Feelings: You say that you feel that you have a self. Is it more accurate to say that you feel emotions when you have thoughts about it? OR do you mean when you grab your arm you say...."This arm is me because I feel myself grabbing it?"

3) Self: "I", "Me" and "Sandee" are self-references. You put on a nametag that says SANDEE on it, people know to look at you then say that word. If someone has a sense of humor, they might say "Betty" to see what you do.

Like you said, you have never explored this, just taken it as a given. Sit with yourself, and look into the idea, look into yourself. Yo can close your eyes and go inside and LOOK. "I' is the concept by which you refer to yourself. What is it really referring to or pointing to? What do you find?

Refer back to what we've talked about, that can help. Remember the optical illusion.

If you have any strong emotions or arguments, make note. You can share those too as they are part of your process..

[Sandee]

When you see the metal sign you pull out a map? When you are standing next to the sign, you "feel" Denver in front of you, and non-Denver behind you? At 30,000 ft, an airplane crosses the invisible "Denver" line that extends into the next galaxy....and what happens? Nothing. If you closed your eyes or sleepwalked, you wouldn't know Denver at all.

The point of the metaphor is to get you to look past the convention and find that no-THING really attaches to that concept.

Hi Cal. Yes, that is apparent. It helps that you capitalized the THING in no-thing. I was about to go off on a tangent otherwise.

1) Really think on this. The sign points to no-thing at all! It points to a rough approximation that can't be reduced any further.

We are taught as convention that a sign HAS to point to something. That a tree is the label "tree". Your parents and grandparents and teachers all clapped for you because you repeated this. You FELT good about this. You were told good girl and you are smart. This is both a metaphor, and somewhat of a sidebar that is the cause of a lot of suffering....because it's never looked into and un-learned. The tree is not the label, you are not the label.

Yes. And then thought wants to say, "Yes...BUT...I *feel* something."

Watching the feeling, its like a tightness in either the chest or head area. It seems like it doesn't show up on its own...it follows the thought "I". If I say "I", there is the tightness again. "Me." There is the tightness. Energy. Am I just equating the "I" with this feeling? Pondering.

2) Feelings: You say that you feel that you have a self. Is it more accurate to say that you feel emotions when you have thoughts about it? OR do you mean when you grab your arm you say...."This arm is me because I feel myself grabbing it?"

The former. I don't know if the emotions or thoughts come up first. It's so very quick, when it pops up.

Like you said, you have never explored this, just taken it as a given. Sit with yourself, and look into the idea, look into yourself. Yo can close your eyes and go inside and LOOK. "I' is the concept by which you refer to yourself. What is it really referring to or pointing to? What do you find?

It seems "I" is used as shorthand for many things.

The I refers to the body or some action the body is doing. "I am exercising." Really means "the body" is moving around, sweating.

The I refers to an emotion. "I am happy." Means "a feeling of happiness has appeared."

The I refers to mental states. "I am thinking." Means there "thought has appeared."

The I refers to an action that will take place. "I will do my taxes." Means the action of doing taxes will take place, by this mind and this body. (Though mind also seems to be a nebulous concept.)

These things get conflated (confused) with the concept of an entity inside the body that does these things, that sometimes controls these things, that perceives these things.

At the moment, "I" can't shake the feeling that "I" is really just perception. The awareness I have...like of the physical space around this body. And that I can only have a singular point of perception of things from this body. Is it wrong to say the "I" is this perception? Am I starting to redefine the term then? So the "I" exists, just as something else?

[SeeEye]

Hi,

Doing good.

Watching the feeling, its like a tightness in either the chest or head area. It seems like it doesn't show up on its own...it follows the thought "I". If I say "I", there is the tightness again. "Me." There is the tightness. Energy. Am I just equating the "I" with this feeling? Pondering.

The former. I don't know if the emotions or thoughts come up first. It's so very quick, when it pops up.

Looks like you DO know.

These things get conflated (confused) with the concept of an entity inside the body that does these things, that sometimes controls these things, that perceives these things.

Your job is to look for the entity. Your job is to look very, very hard for it, wring your hands and furl your brow. Look, Sandee, Look!

Then you watch the thoughts roll in while looking...."It has to be there! It's always been there! Don't run away from it! You are a woman, aren't you!"

"DAMNIT, I'M LOOKING! I SHOULD HAVE NEVER SIGNED UP FOR THIS !"

Then watch the feelings appear, tensions, tinges, tingles, and also the heavy ones....the feeling in your gut, chest, head, neck and combinations...these are the "proof". Sadness, longing, abandonment, disappointment perhaps. Fear, anxiety. There will also be relief, stillness maybe a sense of knowing in the mix too, if you don't start looping the "negative" ones.
--------------
Humans tend to use feelings as PROOF. Thought comes along...."Oh, I forgot my drivers license at the bar" What is the feeling that pops up for you? I bet it wasn't "gentle giggle". That feeling "tells" you that this is SERIOUS BUSINESS.

The inner dialogue has a tone, and that plus content creates an emotion. Look for yourself during the day. Does the emotion that is produced create the reality of the situation? Does it "HAVE TO" mean serious? You COULD, after some therapy, some self-help books and training, after watching Monty Python...you could learn to use the gentle giggle and trust that you could retrieve license from the bar, perhaps bartender has kind eyes of understanding. It is possible to change the "meaning" and emotions about this, no? [This may come in handy now, later, after "seeing"... can help with memories, mom, self-definition, bullshit beliefs]

1) Is a feeling "proof" of reality? Proof of meaning, conclusions?

At the moment, "I" can't shake the feeling that "I" is really just perception.

Why shake it? Deepen it from a feeling to knowing/seeing.

2) Can you find this "I' entity outside of thoughts pointing at more thoughts? You have never thought of this, because a ...hold on here ..... "thought" tells you it has to be here somewhere.

looking for phone, looking all over, lots of thoughts and emotions...... oh, its in my pocket. Phone exists, organism exists, knowing is known, awareness is aware....no thoughts or internal dialogue and speculation needed. Life does itself, organism does itself without explanation or anything needed. Happens all day long.

The awareness I have...like of the physical space around this body. And that I can only have a singular point of perception of things from this body. Is it wrong to say the "I" is this perception? Am I starting to redefine the term then? So the "I" exists, just as something else?

It's wrong for an "I" to try to claim what you are proposing, because it's not there. If you say that awareness is aware, then you are coming along with a thought saying "I must be that then". I get what you are asking.

3) Was awareness not present from the moment you popped out? It was present before is heard "Sandee". Was it not present before it was told the concepts of good and bad, right and wrong? Does awareness exist without the thought of "I exist?"

This is written with love and compassion....

[Sandee]

"DAMNIT, I'M LOOKING! I SHOULD HAVE NEVER SIGNED UP FOR THIS !"

Yep, feeling like I signed up to feel confused and puzzled. Basically for a ticket to walk in circles looking for something that can't be found, but not wanting to give up the search. Like the Nasrudin tale where he looks for the key under a lamp, because that's where the light is...but he keeps searching...even after he admits the key is in the house...UGH

The inner dialogue has a tone, and that plus content creates an emotion. Look for yourself during the day. Does the emotion that is produced create the reality of the situation? Does it "HAVE TO" mean serious? You COULD, after some therapy, some self-help books and training, after watching Monty Python...you could learn to use the gentle giggle and trust that you could retrieve license from the bar, perhaps bartender has kind eyes of understanding. It is possible to change the "meaning" and emotions about this, no?

It's a grave tone. I don't know if it MUST be serious, but that's how it is right now. Grave. Most likely a habit.

1) Is a feeling "proof" of reality? Proof of meaning, conclusions?

No. It's...feeling. Sometimes wrong, and probably wrong, if it responds to something habitually without question.

At the moment, "I" can't shake the feeling that "I" is really just perception.

Why shake it? Deepen it from a feeling to knowing/seeing.

During my sit this morning, seeing that "I" don't need to be there to be "perceiving." And again the thought... "but what about...WHO is perceiving this?" But it's not like I questioned if there needed to be a who in the first place, just begging the question now. So the "I" returns with a thought. It doesn't seem "I" can exist without thought.

2) Can you find this "I' entity outside of thoughts pointing at more thoughts? You have never thought of this, because a ...hold on here ..... "thought" tells you it has to be here somewhere.

If the thinking dies down a bit, there is just the sensation. Sensation and possibly(?) that "I" feeling, but it is, after all, a feeling that has been identified as the "I". Why that would be "I" more than another feeling...I have no idea.

3) Was awareness not present from the moment you popped out? It was present before is heard "Sandee". Was it not present before it was told the concepts of good and bad, right and wrong? Does awareness exist without the thought of "I exist?"

Yes, awareness doesn't need the thought of "I." From what I can tell, awareness does need a body though...a functioning brain that needs to be in a certain state...life...

This is written with love and compassion....

So much metta to you, Cal. :)

I feel like you are pointing out something very obvious to me and I can't see it. Like a pair of glasses on my head.

Right now the issue is that I keep believing my thoughts.

I sense SOMETHING is here (like an energy) but I don't know what it is. If I perceive something, perception is happening, ok. But SOMETHING is directing it...right? Making it possible. I keep wanting to call that something "I". You point out things that hint there is no "I" doing this or that, and I keep wanting to say, yes, but what about...what about...what about...that SOMETHING?

If I agree if there is no personal, self-directing "I", but there is something else--like an energy or life...is that good enough?

[SeeEye]

If I agree if there is no personal, self-directing "I", but there is something else--like an energy or life...is that good enough?

First answer....No.

Second...Good enough for what? Good enough for knowing? No.

"Look, there is a Bigfoot in the bushes, do yo see it?" NO. Of course that's not good enough.

Yes, awareness doesn't need the thought of "I." From what I can tell, awareness does need a body though...a functioning brain that needs to be in a certain state...life...

When you say "from what I can tell"...you are speculating. So we can agree that there is a body and a brain involved, how specifically they are involved you don't know, and it doesn't matter. Perhaps more of the "Yeah, but...." thoughts.

I sense SOMETHING is here (like an energy) but I don't know what it is.

Do you sense that you exist? You should. Existence is here.

If I perceive something, perception is happening, ok. But SOMETHING is directing it...right? Making it possible.

Eyes see George the tree. Sit and watch the tree silently. Can you find a director? You certainly kind find thoughts telling you what should be going on.

Think about this....awareness was there as soon as you opened your eyes this morning, before you had a thought at all. What is needed to make this possible, other than your existence? Your awareness didn't rely on you to make it possible, it was before this thought. It was before all your thoughts at age 1 also.

I feel like you are pointing out something very obvious to me and I can't see it. Like a pair of glasses on my head.

How do you know or prove Santa does not exist? You can't actually find no-Santa as an object. You find that all of yoru thoughts about Santa, how he has to be real, how he has to direct Christmas to happen is a story. It is thoughts pointing to thoughts pointing to thoughts. You are looking at this, yet it never can touch awareness. Thoughts can say you are a purple octopus also.

1) Do you "own" awareness or is it just there?

2) Keep looking at the loop of thoughts, and slow down and look for what they are telling you is there. They are saying that the existence of thoughts about you make you there, but what is actually there that you can SEE? Find some-thing that they point to that is not a concept like Bigfoot and Santa.

[Sandee]

Apologies for the delay, Cal. Have family here at the moment.

1) Do you "own" awareness or is it just there?

It's just there. Seeing that "my" awareness is an artificial, nonsensical idea.

2) Keep looking at the loop of thoughts, and slow down and look for what they are telling you is there. They are saying that the existence of thoughts about you make you there, but what is actually there that you can SEE? Find some-thing that they point to that is not a concept like Bigfoot and Santa.

It seems like what I can see is nothing. Usually, an image, an idea of "I", is what comes up after the thought of "I".

What I am having an issue with is that it seems I can "conjure" an "I" by thinking it, and then having a feeling or pressure inside my body that feels like an "I". Yes, feeling is unreliable, but I can say "here I am!" and feel the pressure. Then say, "Now I'm going to watch TV!" and it feels like I will now direct myself to watch TV. Maybe the "I" is asleep sometimes, awake during others?

[SeeEye]

Hi Sandee,

No worries...family is good.

What I am having an issue with is that it seems I can "conjure" an "I" by thinking it, and then having a feeling or pressure inside my body that feels like an "I".

You said be direct....

Holy Shit Batman! You can conjure your "I' with thought!

Joking and faux shaming aside....this is exactly the point I am making, and exactly what I want you to see!

If you don't conjure it.....low and behold....it's not there!

That's why I said to drill all the way through. TV and reading exercise....you mostly forget to "conjure" it up through thought....and it's not there, for long periods of time.

Your family is perfect for this!

You are all calm and cool, family member has a "look" or makes a comment...and "self" Sandee is in the bedroom "Why did they say THAT? What is their problem?" Offended, slighted, dis-respected comes along (all thought that points to teh ME being offended) Then memories come along. Mom always said that. You always think you are awesome, but you are a turd.

Point is...you can use this time, use real time, to do this work too. Watch self come and go, Watch it have tantrums when slighted. Watch that it doesn't show up for long periods of time when you feel power, feel safe.

Enjoy life, watch, make some notes for this dialogue.

You feel a pressure, an emotion or tension, which proves there is a self...but this only comes "after" motion happens, and then "proves" self as the agent of causation.

Next we will do experiment to look into this.

For now, keep looking as we have started, re-read the thread, let it sink in. Look at the loop of thoughts, which is all you have to hold on to at this point for the self. Remember, thoughts are "signs". They are labels that can point to reality of concepts equally. Sandee is like Denver. Denver goes on without the sign, and could really care less if that sign was taken down or moved 1000ft in either direction.

Watch self come and go with family. Is "self" there at all times when washing dishes, getting bed ready, scrambling eggs, breathing, cheering your food through your digestive system? (Humor is good) This question is cute, but very deep. Why is it that so much happens during the day without remembering the "self" - that Sandee did it all? So much happens without a self present....is it possible that it is not needed?

10) is it possible that if the part of the brain that makes the "self" thoughts show up...that produce tension that says "YES"...if I could disconnect that...it wouldn't matter? I ask, because you can do this experiment all day long and see for yourself that.....IT IS ALREADY THE CASE. When thought drops the ball, it doesn't matter. When I say that there is no "you"....thought goes into overdrive to convince. You already live this truth most of the time, without me, without L.U., and zen and words and concepts.

Gather yourself, read over this a few times, then take a deep breath and play with this. Look at this like a little girl trying to figure out how to get the ice cream open. You will not lose anything.

Cheers!

[Sandee]

Holy Shit Batman! You can conjure your "I' with thought!

lol. Let's take a moment to all admire this superpower.

Joking and faux shaming aside....this is exactly the point I am making, and exactly what I want you to see!

Your family is perfect for this!

So very true...haha!

So much happens without a self present....is it possible that it is not needed?

It's not needed. In terms of the stickiness of self, it seems like it reduced quite a bit in intensity from that night ahead where I was laughing at my hands holding themselves up, quite clearly without a self, as I flossed.

Gather yourself, read over this a few times, then take a deep breath and play with this. Look at this like a little girl trying to figure out how to get the ice cream open. You will not lose anything.

Yes, yes, the mind was looking for some verification after that night, but it seems things are just happening. Verification is not needed. It seems more sensible to see if "self" shows up as evidence, and then respond to that. But without evidence of this self in the first place, there is no point to needlessly try and defend its existence.

[SeeEye]

Hi Sandee,

I'm getting the sense to say that more pointing is not needed, but deeper looking might be. This will help if you have a tendency to get close, be right there, then say "that can't be it". So think on my questions at a deep level. Spend time with them. You can even sit with them when you sit.

You can conjure your "I' with thought!

1) Can you go into depth into this for me. I delivered it jokingly but it is what you are trying to see. If you don't conjure it does it "have to" be there?

It's not needed. In terms of the stickiness of self, it seems like it reduced quite a bit in intensity from that night ahead where I was laughing at my hands holding themselves up, quite clearly without a self, as I flossed.

2) When you say stickiness, are you referring to anything besides a thought coming along and creating feeling/emotion with it?

Yes, yes, the mind was looking for some verification after that night, but it seems things are just happening. Verification is not needed. It seems more sensible to see if "self" shows up as evidence, and then respond to that. But without evidence of this self in the first place, there is no point to needlessly try and defend its existence.

3) If that verification was to come along, would it be in any form or knowing other than thought?


I gave you some pointers to watch yourself doing things without a self - to catch yourself letting body and life do itself, and then a thought comes along and says "Oh yeah, Sandee blah blah blah". It's not there until thought tells you about it.

4) Find the edge of this thought, the genesis of this thought in real time, not thinking about it abstractly.

This is the difference between thinking about turning around and seeing that I'm standing right behind you, and actually turning around and SEEING me there, which would produce a jolt of recognition. One is in the mind's eye, one is with the eyes.

[Sandee]

I'm getting the sense to say that more pointing is not needed, but deeper looking might be. This will help if you have a tendency to get close, be right there, then say "that can't be it". So think on my questions at a deep level. Spend time with them. You can even sit with them when you sit.

Hi Cal. This sounds right and I'll spend time with your questions for my next few sits. The habit is to ignore sensations and to rapidly conceptualize--to dismiss what's happening or quickly fashion concepts and theories. Seeing is something I'm becoming reacquainted with.

You can conjure your "I' with thought!

Yes. That's what seems to be happening.

1) Can you go into depth into this for me. I delivered it jokingly but it is what you are trying to see. If you don't conjure it does it "have to" be there?

No, it hasn't been present recently. Usually comes up if I'm annoyed. Or frustrated. But disappears quickly and the long-winded stories that used to occupy my mind seem gone.

2) When you say stickiness, are you referring to anything besides a thought coming along and creating feeling/emotion with it?

I mean exactly that and nothing else. :)

3) If that verification was to come along, would it be in any form or knowing other than thought?

I don't know the answer to this. It seems like yes, knowing would be in the experience itself. Like the fish knowing the water it's in after not having seen it for so long. The fish would need to be out of the water to be able to say "so THAT's what water is!" The contrast would provide the knowledge.

I gave you some pointers to watch yourself doing things without a self - to catch yourself letting body and life do itself, and then a thought comes along and says "Oh yeah, Sandee blah blah blah". It's not there until thought tells you about it.

4) Find the edge of this thought, the genesis of this thought in real time, not thinking about it abstractly.

Ok, I am reading through the thread again and will be go over the suggestions as you've instructed.

This is the difference between thinking about turning around and seeing that I'm standing right behind you, and actually turning around and SEEING me there, which would produce a jolt of recognition. One is in the mind's eye, one is with the eyes.

Well, geez, it seems you won't let me take the easy way out Cal! Lol. It "feels" like I'm there but you won't allow me to take the non-committal, "I don't know for sure but probably" route. Lol. Will do more looking. It may take some time though. Again, habits. :-D

[SeeEye]

Very good.

Drop all of the "seems like" and you will be in a better place.

If you look up and see your friend at the supermarket, that moment of recognition is complete and without any "seems like".

Give yourself permission to trust your experiences directly.

[Sandee]

Hi Cal,
Thanks again for all the pointers. I'll commit myself to "seeing" for the next few days, weeks(?), months(lol?) and let you know when something is perceived. It feels like hard work, the trying to see. I'm not used to it. After a few minutes, it's just like "this is tiring! I'm gonna go chill out." And then I go do something else.

Yesterday I had a moment where I was "lost" in the "self" again (it seems like its intensity has been lessening over a few weeks now) but it came back during the afternoon when a few events made me feel fear, worry. I could feel this tumult in my body...this clenching..."what if this happens", "what should I do" which turned into "how do I get rid of this 'self' feeling", "why am I not feeling better" and then wondering what's the point of seeing if suffering continues.

And it was like, "oh god, hello again, self" and returning to that mind state I've been in most of my life. And then feeling liked I needed to get rid of that state, but not knowing how.

And it disappeared again today. From sleep? Who knows. Mind is relaxed right now.

If I end up seeing self as an illusion, will I ever be in that mental "me, me, me" state again? Will it be gone forever? I understand suffering and pain and all that will continue...is unavoidable...but what about this particular type of suffering that involves the "me"?

[SeeEye]

Hi,

I'll commit myself to "seeing" for the next few days, weeks(?), months(lol?) and let you know when something is perceived.

The basic idea is to post every day. This works better that way. Unless you are giving up.

It feels like hard work, the trying to see. I'm not used to it

You are used to having things be easy? Sitting and spacing out, in my experience, doesn't do much.

I understand that this is a struggle, but there is a difference between concentration effort and "struggle".

Close your eyes....what do you see? You see nothing. It's black and silent until you start thinking. This is not hard at all.

You are making this hard because of your thinking about it. In an example I gave, when you see someone and recognize them, is that hard? No. It is automatic. I understand that this is pissing you off...I was like that too.

1) when you looked at the optical illusion, did you see the 2 different women?


-

I could feel this tumult in my body...this clenching..."what if this happens", "what should I do" which turned into "how do I get rid of this 'self' feeling", "why am I not feeling better" and then wondering what's the point of seeing if suffering continues.

I am going to be direct here out of care and expediency.

When you look for a self, you find that thoughts arise, something like this:

- "Where is the self?"
- I hear my breathing
- Feel tingling in feet
- "But there has to be a self, I mean, duh!"
- "Come on, if you don't see it you are going to fail at zen"
- "I'm tired of failing"
- "My self is sort of like my body, I do feel a sense of presence"
- "Well, that has to count for something"


2) Now in all of this....what do these thoughts point to? Each other. Perhaps that is all they point to. Perhaps you are listening to thoughts tell you about what you "should" see and whatnot. This is your struggle....thoughts make you pucker.

3) DO the same sitting for looking for Santa. How do you know there is no Santa? You cannot see Santa, just as you cannot see a "self" as some entity/object. You cannot also see no-Santa.

You can however see the space, the silence, the blackness....and what is in that space other than no-thing, thought and awareness?

Another way of putting this is simply admitting that in your experience, that is all there is to experience. Then you trust your experience instead of your "thoughts" about your experience. You close your eyes and see black. Your F-ing thoughts cannot touch this, only barge in and piss you off. You just need to see the space, silence and the absense of everything, and watch thoughts barge in, and then you have some thoughts in that space now, but thoughts are not the self, in that space or anywhere.

If your thoughts were so awesome, every time you layed in bed worrying for hours would actually make your life better instead of worse. That argument your prepared for for 3 hours never happened, or worked out completely differently anyway.

The suffering you are referring to, and correct me if I'm wrong, is about ego and self and status and self-worth. You suffer hard from monkey mind and rumination. Another part are attachments, ego and status things, identity things that can be taken away, from money, relationships, being liked, status, embarrassment, health, mom's opinion, etc. This shit is toxic and unnecessary and often why people pick up zen or psych in the first place. It would seem like it should be easy to drop, but the other side of the coin is when all these things are really good, "you" take ownership and claim to be a genious and float on good feelings. Then it goofs up and you are in hell again.

You can feel better by working hard to create an awesome life, and you can work hard at the zen path/no-self/enlightenment side. Or you can do both, or neither. The return is always worth the work in the long term, but your inner process likes to whine and complain and be a victim and create a lot of drama, which you are the star of the show. The more victim and whining, the more self-important the "self" is, the special Sandee is. I personally would not want to go back to this.

My personal path is to "make myself and my life a self-styled work of art while working on waking up." I have devoted many years to this. I cannot find anything better to do with the opportunity of being alive.

Seeing self as an illusion is a big step on the path. It makes both sides of the path easier. Questions like "Who is worrying so much about this?" make a lot more sense, and aren't offensive. The suffering of the self is reduced, by exactly how much for you will be for you to find out. Most of the time, this seeing is not fully abiding...it doesn't stop the mind permanently. For a few, this happens in one shot. Everyone has a different experience. My experience, and that of many others is that once you "see" it, you have tons of room to deepen that experience. The "me" program is strong, and will come back on line and "act as if"....just like it is for you right now. The lack of a self has always been that way, you just are stuck in the loop of thoughts "acting as if". Sun comes out, goes behind clouds, nightime comes...sun is always "on". Us not seeing it doesn't change this. As you continue to practice, develop your own pointers and reminders, the suffering decreases. You experience this now also....when you feel threatened, mind goes nuts and you suffer hard. When you "forget" to pay attention to this crap, you feel good.

Take one of your good days of the past few weeks. If this was your normal, is it worth doing the work? Is your normal worrying/suffering/ puckering up really that awesome that when it tells you to go do something easy.....this is really that good that you want to drop it?

Respond to what you want to, and also tell me what has been working and what detracts, and we can look at that.

[Sandee]

The basic idea is to post every day. This works better that way. Unless you are giving up.

It feels like hard work, the trying to see. I'm not used to it

You are used to having things be easy? Sitting and spacing out, in my experience, doesn't do much.

This was the part where you were supposed to say, yes, get back to me when you get it. Not "keep trying". ARRRRGH

1) when you looked at the optical illusion, did you see the 2 different women?

Yes.

2) Now in all of this....what do these thoughts point to? Each other. Perhaps that is all they point to. Perhaps you are listening to thoughts tell you about what you "should" see and whatnot. This is your struggle....thoughts make you pucker.

So, when I was sitting today, looking, the "pure" act of looking seemed like it was just that, looking, without being burdened or glued to anything at all. The "self" only came up as a thought. Cool, cool. This happened for a while. Not being able to find anything.

And then I looked down at my legs. "AHA THERE I AM!" was the thought. (*cue sad trombone*)

So, I think I'm confusing myself right now. I don't know what I'm looking for again? Because here is something that we label "a body". I also call that myself. I'm not looking for THAT self, am I? That self which we call a body. That's not what we're talking about, to be clear? What self am I looking for? I need clarification. The self I am looking for is the self that is presumed to think, to know, to act, to choose, to feel? Right? For some reason when I can't find it internally, I just go back to pointing to my body. Because right there, there's the self.

3) DO the same sitting for looking for Santa. How do you know there is no Santa? You cannot see Santa, just as you cannot see a "self" as some entity/object. You cannot also see no-Santa.

Ok, will do. I didn't quite get that far today.

You can however see the space, the silence, the blackness....and what is in that space other than no-thing, thought and awareness?

I don't know what it is. It feels like nothing.

Another way of putting this is simply admitting that in your experience, that is all there is to experience. Then you trust your experience instead of your "thoughts" about your experience. You close your eyes and see black. Your F-ing thoughts cannot touch this, only barge in and piss you off. You just need to see the space, silence and the absense of everything, and watch thoughts barge in, and then you have some thoughts in that space now, but thoughts are not the self, in that space or anywhere.

Yes. Ok.

The suffering you are referring to, and correct me if I'm wrong, is about ego and self and status and self-worth. You suffer hard from monkey mind and rumination. Another part are attachments, ego and status things, identity things that can be taken away, from money, relationships, being liked, status, embarrassment, health, mom's opinion, etc. This shit is toxic and unnecessary and often why people pick up zen or psych in the first place. It would seem like it should be easy to drop, but the other side of the coin is when all these things are really good, "you" take ownership and claim to be a genious and float on good feelings. Then it goofs up and you are in hell again.

Yes. Suffering based on thinking about things I have or don't have.

The more victim and whining, the more self-important the "self" is, the special Sandee is. I personally would not want to go back to this.

Yes, it's a real drag.

My personal path is to "make myself and my life a self-styled work of art while working on waking up." I have devoted many years to this. I cannot find anything better to do with the opportunity of being alive.

Can I be a stickler here and say you're talking about "yourself" and "your life"? And what does that mean, exactly, if there is no self?

My experience, and that of many others is that once you "see" it, you have tons of room to deepen that experience. The "me" program is strong, and will come back on line and "act as if"....just like it is for you right now. The lack of a self has always been that way, you just are stuck in the loop of thoughts "acting as if". Sun comes out, goes behind clouds, nightime comes...sun is always "on". Us not seeing it doesn't change this. As you continue to practice, develop your own pointers and reminders, the suffering decreases. You experience this now also....when you feel threatened, mind goes nuts and you suffer hard. When you "forget" to pay attention to this crap, you feel good.

Interesting. It is good to know it may decrease over time.

Take one of your good days of the past few weeks. If this was your normal, is it worth doing the work? Is your normal worrying/suffering/ puckering up really that awesome that when it tells you to go do something easy.....this is really that good that you want to drop it?

Given so much suffering has gone, it is absolutely worth it to continue working.

Respond to what you want to, and also tell me what has been working and what detracts, and we can look at that.

Thank you for sharing all of this.

What I'm grappling with is what I stated above, I'm starting to lose sight of what I'm supposed to be looking for. If maybe if you can remind me what you mean when you say "the self"...that would help. Because I go back to the body as the definition when no internal self can be found.