Who is getting lost in the sauce?

[Bananafish]

Thank you, Christian. :)

It feels like the tone of what you write has slightly changed.
How do you feel to realize wha you wrote in your previous post?

Any problems remaining?
If so, please let me know; and I'd like to ask you to be 100% honest about it.
That's a crucial point in this inquiry. :)


Warmly,

Bananafish

[Z23]

Hey Kento,

This has been the most difficult message to articulate so far. It's hard to make one coherent statement about this so I've put them in jot form

"This couldn't be it"

- I feel disappointed at the prospect that I could see again and again that there isn't a self to be found, yet still act and feel like it's real. It seems like it's there, I look, I can't see anything there. Looking for an existing problem with this process is much like the exercise of looking for a self that moves the foot. It seems like it's there until I look and find nothing at the source. A feeling that something is missing or incomplete.

- The feeling that there is a self that I'm not seeing, just like the feeling that there is a problem that I'm unaware of is still there, and I want it to go away.

- There are challenges to maintaining this view,
if there no self why it does it keep coming back? The thoughts, the feelings, the desire to protect like something is at stake?
If this is seeing it's disappointingly underwhelming.

I'm grateful for your working with me through this,
Christian

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :)

- I feel disappointed at the prospect that I could see again and again that there isn't a self to be found, yet still act and feel like it's real. It seems like it's there, I look, I can't see anything there. Looking for an existing problem with this process is much like the exercise of looking for a self that moves the foot. It seems like it's there until I look and find nothing at the source. A feeling that something is missing or incomplete.

Yes, I hear you, Christian. Could you describe how you "still act and feel like it's real"?
Please give examples from your daily life.

The feeling that there is a self that I'm not seeing

What is that feeling? Thought? Image? Or anything else?

if there no self why it does it keep coming back?

It sounds that you have made "no-self" a kind of concept.

Seeing is seeing and knowing what this "separate entity called self" is; and if you really saw it as it is,
it coming back won't be a problem, as it is a natural process of thought
appearing and disappearing. The problem, if any, is to problematize it.


Let's have a further look. What comes back, when you say "it keeps coming back"?


Warm regards,

Bananafish

[Z23]

Hey Kento,

Yes, I hear you, Christian. Could you describe how you "still act and feel like it's real"?
Please give examples from your daily life.

b]Allergies and rumination[/b]

I will have a self-referential thought. This thought will be accompanied by a physical or emotional reaction to the thought. The emotion gives way to more thoughts about what the emotions mean about me as a self. Then emotions about those thoughts continue ad nauseum until something disrupts the loop.

Example. I experienced bad allergies while tearing down drywall today. There was inner dialogue in my own voice wondering what the consequences of chronic allergies. Then thoughts about how those potential consequences would effect my body, then feeling bad about being the type of entity that this happens to.

This is not really an engaged process, rather one that happens almost outside of conscious awareness, but it's there and the body still physically responds to thoughts about things that aren't real.

There are thoughts about a self or entity named christian. The body responds to those thoughts to some degree.

What is that feeling? Thought? Image? Or anything else?

Inner dialogue that sounds exactly as it does when I speak talking about. More inner dialogue in the same voice agreeing or disagreeing. Normally sound presupposes a location. This is not the case in thought.

It sounds that you have made "no-self" a kind of concept.

Seeing is seeing and knowing what this "separate entity called self" is; and if you really saw it as it is,
it coming back won't be a problem, as it is a natural process of thought
appearing and disappearing. The problem, if any, is to problematize it.
Let's have a further look. What comes back, when you say "it keeps coming back"?

Nothing actually comes back. Ruminating about a self and reacting to those ruminations just continues.

Okay this is becoming more clear with repetition :) I'm happy to see this.

Thanks,
Christian

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :)

There are thoughts about a self or entity named christian. The body responds to those thoughts to some degree.

Yes, that looks like a natural response as a human being. Is there any expectation about it
ceasing to happen? What is the problem about it?

More inner dialogue in the same voice agreeing or disagreeing.

Can it be rephrased as thought appearing and disappearing?

Ruminating about a self and reacting to those ruminations just continues.

Ok, and where is that "self" when you look for it?



Warm regards,

Kento

[Z23]

Hey Kento,

Yes, that looks like a natural response as a human being. Is there any expectation about it
ceasing to happen? What is the problem about it?

There was an expectation about cessation before you asked the question :) not so much any more.

The problem about it was unclear thinking about what those thoughts recurring implied. The problem exists in thinking and ascribing a perpetuity to the thoughts about self. The idea that a persistent thought about a thing implies the existence is not correct.

Can it be rephrased as thought appearing and disappearing?

Yes it can, and that seems more accurate.

Ok, and where is that "self" when you look for it?

Thoughts appearing and disappearing. That's where the "self" is.

Thanks,
Christian

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :)

Thoughts appearing and disappearing. That's where the "self" is.

Are thought and self different?


Warm wishes,

Kento

[Z23]

Are thoughts and self different?

This question is a really poignant headspinner. I gave this a shot yesterday and stared at an empty page for a quite a while :)

It appears thoughts and self are not things, rather they are activities or processes. It appears that there are no thoughts only thinking, in the same way that it appears there is no self...only "selfing". The activity of "selfing" is an activity of thinking, so it appears that all selfing is no different from thinking. It really appears that "selfing" is a natural byproduct of thinking as well.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think thoughts and self are not different.

Thanks for your help and patience,
Christian

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :)


Yes, let's go on a bit further from speculation to actual observation.
What comes up when you 'think' that self equals thought.


Do you feel a sort of certainty in what you are thinking about?
Or do doubts appear?


Warm wishes,

Kento

[Z23]

Hi Christian. :)


Yes, let's go on a bit further from speculation to actual observation.
What comes up when you 'think' that self equals thought.


Do you feel a sort of certainty in what you are thinking about?
Or do doubts appear?

I feel a type of certainty when thinking self = thoughts
Self doesn’t exist in thinking..rather self is thinking.
The illusion of self occurs both concurrently and as thinking when thinking occurs.

Thanks,
Christian

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :)

I feel a type of certainty when thinking self = thoughts
Self doesn’t exist in thinking..rather self is thinking.
The illusion of self occurs both concurrently and as thinking when thinking occurs.

Are you satisfied with an intellectual understanding of this?
Or have you got a visceral understanding?

When you say "self is thinking," how do you perceive a subject "self"
thinking thoughts?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

[Z23]

Are you satisfied with an intellectual understanding of this?
Or have you got a visceral understanding?

There’s a new feeling being on the precipice of an emerging perspective. There is a new visceral understanding seeing there is no watcher, no delay, thinking and observation being one and the same.

When you say "self is thinking," how do you perceive a subject "self"
thinking thoughts

?

To clarify the statement from last email. What I intended to articulate was not “ there is a self and that self is thinking “

What I intended to articulate was that “self doesn’t exist in the the thinking. selfing = thinking. Selfing is just another word for thinking.

I don’t perceive the subject self, because the observation is also the thought which becomes the self once it’s talked about.

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :)

There’s a new feeling being on the precipice of an emerging perspective. There is a new visceral understanding seeing there is no watcher, no delay, thinking and observation being one and the same.

Great to hear that! :) Please be familiar with it.

I don’t perceive the subject self, because the observation is also the thought which becomes the self once it’s talked about.

How do you see the "self" now, and how is it felt?


Warm wishes,

Kento

[Z23]

Hi Christian. :)

There’s a new feeling being on the precipice of an emerging perspective. There is a new visceral understanding seeing there is no watcher, no delay, thinking and observation being one and the same.

Great to hear that! :) Please be familiar with it.

I don’t perceive the subject self, because the observation is also the thought which becomes the self once it’s talked about.

How do you see the "self" now, and how is it felt?

Warm wishes,

Kento

The way I see the self now and how it’s felt...

There is no finding self inside of our outside of thought or even as the subject of thinking. Nothing is navigating, there is just navigation and it keeps happening spontaneously. Self is seen as idea that the navigation implies a subject that is navigating. There has always only been navigation. There’s a feeling of spaciousness and immediacy. A lightness.

Thanks,
Christian

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :)


Glad to know about how you are feeling now!


Would you say that you've clearly seen through the illusion of a
separate entity called "self"?


Anything you want to further inquire?


Warm wishes,

Kento