The Gate

Hi Ian

I am very encouraged by our dialogue. The way this is going is not the usual way for LU, but I think that is OK, it seems to me you have done a lot of looking already. Please bear with me while i think of the best next steps. I do have some ideas :-)

Simon

Great!
Looking forward!

Hello Ian

I want to point you in a direction that will help you. Its been quite a while since I had the sorts of feelings that you are describing here. I was trying to put myself back to that time and place and understand what was going on with me. I think i managed that. My next problem though is that it is difficult to give pointers that wil be helpful coming from that place as the pointers vary depending on where you are, if that makes any kind of sense. Amyway now i feel i can try and help after a couple of days sitting with this.

Could you have a read please from this blog by Illona, the co-founder of this site. Please read the page and then watch the video. Let me know what you think. https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/

For there to be suffering does there have to be a self that suffers?
What is it that suffers? What are the components of the suffering?

When you experience the suffering please can you also notice the space or silence in which the suffering appears. Notice the discomfort (however it manifests) at the same time as the noticing space. What do you see? Is the space affected by the suffering and if so how and for how long? Once you have done this could you watch this video please and again let me know what you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4dgzml ... xv2e_GCDDE

I would like to come back to some of the points you made in your last post after you have responded to this posy if thats OK. There are some interesting things in there I would like to talk about, so rest assured nothing will get left behind or forgotten about in our dialogue.

You might find it interesting to google a term called "dark night of the soul" and see what you think of the varous ideas about that concept out there and hear some other folks stories.

Thank you for continuing on with this thread and our conversation.

Simon

Hi Simon,
Thanks for the post and the links. They were very helpful and right on point. In the last few days, even tough the burning in the chest is present, I'm starting to feel this still background, that all the teachers are talking about. I can feel, even for some glimpses, that all I feel, or search, or strive for is part of a play, like a movie. And I'm the watcher. And of course the actor too. But The actor does what is in the script, he doesnt have free will. It feels liberating. Its mostly conceptual, but for short glimpses it becomes very real. I am starting to see it as real experience, not only as a concept! Small glimpses, but enough to see it is there, the truth is there, it is real! Its great! It gives me much needed at that moment HOPE! Watching Mooji's video that you posted, I conceptually understand it all, it speaks to me very directly. But also I start to feel what he is talking about, not only conceptual, but experiential for a bit.

I'm familiar with the term "Dark night of the soul" from St. John of the Cross. My wife went trough something like that a few years ago. She lost all hope, but luckily she saw that even death is not the solution, so she wasnt suicidal. At that time we was reading a lot of literature regarding "Dark night of the soul" because it was helping her, seeing others that when trough it was bringing her faith back. Her experience was very dramatic, but after that she became much more awake and living more in "the now".
I think I am going trough it now, although I am not the type of character that will let himself hit "rock bottom" like her. Sometimes I want to, just to go as deep in Hell as possible, so that I have no other choice but let go of everything forcefully and start to come back anew. But I dont think it will work out like that in my case.

Anyway, now I think I have to come to back to experiencing the truth again and again, hopefully the glimpses will become bigger and stronger. I have to be careful not to let my ego take control and start distracting me all ways possible. It has done it many times in my past.

Thanks again for all you do for me Simon, I think you are guiding me very well. My upbringing is to always cope with things by myself only, but I'm glad this time I searched for help and found you!

I wanted to also tell you how I feel about suffering.
Yesterday I was reading some part of "The power of now" by Eckhard Tolle and he was pointing out that suffering is just resisting what is already here and now. And I see it very clearly! The goal is not this burning in my chest to end. It may continue as long as it wants, I have no control over it anyway. But if I dont resist it the suffering is not here. I have the preference for it to end one day, but now as it is here anyway, why resist it and suffer?
That is also mostly conceptual, but there are some glimpses of real experience also.

Hi Ian

It seems to be taking me a while to think and get back to you. Bot now I have :-)

I wanted to also tell you how I feel about suffering.
Yesterday I was reading some part of "The power of now" by Eckhard Tolle and he was pointing out that suffering is just resisting what is already here and now. And I see it very clearly! The goal is not this burning in my chest to end. It may continue as long as it wants, I have no control over it anyway. But if I dont resist it the suffering is not here. I have the preference for it to end one day, but now as it is here anyway, why resist it and suffer?
That is also mostly conceptual, but there are some glimpses of real experience also.

This is exactly how I experience and understand suffering. At any moment we can make a choice, drop the suffering and come back to reality without our layer of thoughts about it. Looking at the thoughts of a self that is suffering, what is real about them?

Thanks for the post and the links. They were very helpful and right on point. In the last few days, even tough the burning in the chest is present, I'm starting to feel this still background, that all the teachers are talking about. I can feel, even for some glimpses, that all I feel, or search, or strive for is part of a play, like a movie. And I'm the watcher. And of course the actor too. But The actor does what is in the script, he doesnt have free will. It feels liberating. Its mostly conceptual, but for short glimpses it becomes very real. I am starting to see it as real experience, not only as a concept! Small glimpses, but enough to see it is there, the truth is there, it is real! Its great! It gives me much needed at that moment HOPE! Watching Mooji's video that you posted, I conceptually understand it all, it speaks to me very directly. But also I start to feel what he is talking about, not only conceptual, but experiential for a bit.

This is all you need, stick with it, try to remember and come back to the still background. It is always there, it never goes away, all that happens is you cloud it over. In my teaching it was described to me like the deep clear still ocean, you do not see it when the waves of though are storming on the surface. Or like the sun obscured by fog and cloud.

I'm familiar with the term "Dark night of the soul" from St. John of the Cross. My wife went trough something like that a few years ago. She lost all hope, but luckily she saw that even death is not the solution, so she wasnt suicidal. At that time we was reading a lot of literature regarding "Dark night of the soul" because it was helping her, seeing others that when trough it was bringing her faith back. Her experience was very dramatic, but after that she became much more awake and living more in "the now".
I think I am going trough it now, although I am not the type of character that will let himself hit "rock bottom" like her. Sometimes I want to, just to go as deep in Hell as possible, so that I have no other choice but let go of everything forcefully and start to come back anew. But I dont think it will work out like that in my case.

Interesting, I think you are right. I went through this phase myself some years ago so do have some understanding. I don’t want to dwell on this at the moment though, unless you would like to talk some more about it?

I would like to change track a little from talking about suffering. Whatever moved you to start a spiritual journey it came from an urge to search for something or a wish of some kind. Can you have a look there and see what you wish for now? What is it that has that urge? Do we have such a thing as a true nature and how cold it be described? Do you feel there is a process unfolding and can you trust it? Where in this process is there a self and what is it doing?

Anyway, now I think I have to come to back to experiencing the truth again and again, hopefully the glimpses will become bigger and stronger. I have to be careful not to let my ego take control and start distracting me all ways possible. It has done it many times in my past.

Y
Yes I think so, this is the only way I know how. It is very normal for this to happen, awakening and then sleeping . It keeps happening till it doesn’t, in its own time.

Thanks again for all you do for me Simon, I think you are guiding me very well. My upbringing is to always cope with things by myself only, but I'm glad this time I searched for help and found you!

I am very glad too, and you are very welcome.

We have covered so much Ian that I have found it helpful to split my reply into seperte bite sized posts. If i missed anything we can go back to it. Also this gives you the choice which thread to follow :-)

I have a theory about the apparent pattern of the thoughts. May be we have many many thoughts at any moment, big part of them are random and not related to each other, but we pay attention only to those which are related and just dont pay any attention on all the others, because our minds like order and logic and ignores all else.

An interesting idea, can this be applied to things happening in the outer awareness as well as the things happening in our inner awareness? Subconscious and conscious, it’s an interesting idea as well, things are happening that we are not aware of…..

and do they have a location in reality?
The way I see it lately is that thoughts have location as long as my cup of tea(for example) have a location. I see it that way because in our dreams we see different things that apparently have location and in the dream we believe they are very real. But when we wake up in the morning we clearly see that it was all in our thoughts, it was all made up.

So... no matter how hard I search I find no proof that in the "waking state" anything have any location.

I think this is a big realisation. We can look at this some more if you like with some practical examples?

I think it will be helpful to look into this some more. Please look closely at thinking as it happens. How many thoughts can be present in a moment? How many emotions can be present in a moment? Can thought and emotion and awareness be present all at the same time? What in fact is a moment, how big or small is it?
If you think about a point where something is occurring, how big or small is that point, what is the nature of the boundary between that point and everything outside it?
I pondered about this alot lately. At first I see myself as a "watcher" of everything. So I ask who is this watcher. Where is it located? But I see that he is also seen. From where? If I find any point that is watching everything around it, no matter how small it is, it itself is watched from somewhere else if I see it, right? So the watcher cant be even a point. It must be NOthing! There is no other way! And simultaneously it must be everything, because if it was just Nothing, it wouldn't see a thing. And it sees everything. I see everything. I cannot not see. I cannot be unaware! I am the world and the world is me! Its fascinating!

I cannot add anything to this, clearly expressed. It is a paradox but you are describing how I currently experience this. We never were unaware, we were just not aware of it LOL, if that makes sense. The sun is there even when a cloud is between us and it, in this way we are always aware, even when part of that awareness is not.

I think the above is all you have to know and understand about the so called "enlightenment" And I fully see it and understand it.

Yes the above is a key thing to know. The quality of that knowing may change and have different flavours.

Hello Simon! Long time no see!
How are you? I hope everything is fine with you!

With me...things are moving fast, and paradoxically I'm stuck as hell! I mean in my outer life things are changing a lot. Me and my family is moving to a bigger city, my daughter will go to school there in a few weeks, we are searching for a new home, I'm searching for a new job...I even started to learn some computer languages like HTML, CSS(front end development)...but inside...its another story. I've never been so stuck in my life! I dont know how I steel find the drive and will to even come out of bed in the morning. If I ever sleep at all(Its 4AM now and I'm awake form 1AM, I slept only for an hour). "The burning" is so strong! I feel like standing on a threshold! But I dont know if that will take me up in heaven or down to hell. All that "Dark night of the soul" stuff is giving me some hope that after this I will finally be in peace, live my life for the sake of it, without always searching for meaning, but it all feels so dreadful and meaningless that it looks like I'm "on the highway to Hell".
Lately Im not reading or listening to much spiritual stuff, because I feel its all the same, conceptually I get it all, but in reality its a mess, a big mess. I'm a big mess! And I know very well that "I" dont exist at all, but that doesn't help!

Hi Ian,

Is it OK if I call you Ian? Or would you prefer some other name?

I’m sorry that your guide left you without saying a word and helping you to find a new guide. But I can help you if you would accept me as your new guide.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Since quite some time has passed since you were guided, I would like to start the whole thing from scratch. So please give some information where you are at the moment, what is it that you can see experientially, what is it that you can’t.
Please share anything that you find relevant.

Also, could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

Vivien

Hello Vivian! I'm so happy you decided to take over my guiding! I know about you from an interview I read a few months ago on Luchana's blog - www.luchanaslife.com Shes the one that showed me this forum.
I'm so exited about you guiding me! :) Thank you so much!

Is it OK if I call you Ian? Or would you prefer some other name?

My actual name is Ivan

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know. Can we agree on these?

Yes, surely!

Please share anything that you find relevant.

On my outer life things at the moment are action-full. Me, my wife and my daughter(she's 10) are moving to a new city and its like a roller coaster. This whole thing paradoxically gives me a little bit of peace inside, since so much things are happening, so much plans are not working like we thought, other plans are made as we go by...One door closes, another opens unexpectedly...I'm reminded every day that whatever I feel or want or plan doesn't matter to the universe, she has her own plan and it is absolute, no corrections are allowed. :)
That realization gives me some peace, like going with the flow after a long struggle against it.
Saying that, I don't mean I'm all peaceful, not at all.

Also, could you please tell me what are you really looking for?

In the past I would say peace, but now I'm not so sure. I mean I realized that in peace there is no evolution, no progress. Especially spiritually. So now I can say I want spiritual progress, I want truth! Even if it doesn't mean peace.

How would your life change if you find that?

I'm not hoping some "event" to happen, I think spiritual progress is a never ending process. But saying that I must confess I secretly hope that some big realization will change my whole worldview, like it did with so many of the spiritual teachers I listen to, like Eckhart Tolle for example. His book "the power of now" was my first spiritual stuff I came across in my lifetime, previous to that I thought all those "spiritual" people are wasting their time searching for unicorns, but after that book I became one of those people. And since his awakening was very brutal, happened over a single night, maybe I made this as my goal and I'm still expecting the same thing to happen to me, even though I have realized it probably never will, not in the same way at least.

What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

I can say I have seen trough the illusion now and then, for a few glimpses...sometimes its seen that this whole "Ivan" thing is just a mental construction, just a bundle of thoughts layer after layer... but its for a fraction of a second, and after that the habit of being a self kicks in brutally, its such a strong habit. And when I try not to be a self intentionally soon after I see that its actually "Me" trying not to be "Me" and its very frustrating. Like there is no way out. And I know there is, I believe there is...Please help me find it!

With gratitude,
Ivan

Hi Ivan,

I'm so exited about you guiding me! :) Thank you so much!

You are welcome :)

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

But saying that I must confess I secretly hope that some big realization will change my whole worldview, like it did with so many of the spiritual teachers I listen to, like Eckhart Tolle for example. His book "the power of now" was my first spiritual stuff I came across in my lifetime, previous to that I thought all those "spiritual" people are wasting their time searching for unicorns, but after that book I became one of those people. And since his awakening was very brutal, happened over a single night, maybe I made this as my goal and I'm still expecting the same thing to happen to me, even though I have realized it probably never will, not in the same way at least.

This is a big one! :) The thing is that what happened to Eckhart T. is very-very rare. One in a million, or less. So if you expect something like that than you are just setting yourself up for a big disappointment. For most of us it’s a gradual process. It would be very good if you could let go of this expectations. It’s just in a way to recognize what is here now, in the simplicity of the immediate experience.

In the past I would say peace, but now I'm not so sure. I mean I realized that in peace there is no evolution, no progress. Especially spiritually. So now I can say I want spiritual progress, I want truth! Even if it doesn't mean peace.

Peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

The thing is that it cannot be know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside from the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine it within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

And when I try not to be a self intentionally soon after I see that its actually "Me" trying not to be "Me" and its very frustrating.

Exactly! It’s good to see this. :)

So what is this me that is trying to not to be a self?
Where is this me, here now in this moment?

As you go about your everyday life, how does the self/I/me show up?
Don’t go to the story about the me, rather look at the me itself.

What is it like? What is it made of? Does it have a shape or a color? How big it is? And where is its exact location?

What does the word I actually point to? If you take a finger (literally) and land it on I, where does it land?
Can you see, smell, hear, taste, touch the I? Try it, with each sense.


Vivien

Hi Vivian,

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Ok, I will put aside all and this time I will really try and start telling you only what I REALLY see, NOT what I believe, NOT what I've learned, NOT what I expect...only what I see in this very moment. As far as I can distinct reality from the story in the head, because its easier said that done. But I promise I'll give my best!

So what is this me that is trying to not to be a self?
Where is this me, here now in this moment?

I know and I believe this "me" is nowhere, doesn't exist, just a bundle of thoughts, a cartoon character. If thoughts stop, "me" vanishes, only actual experience remains. And its not personal. That's the theory and as you can see I've learned it well.
But I promised I will tell you only the truth of my actual experience, not theory. So here we go:
When I ask the question Where is this me, here now in this moment? I can sincerely answer: Here, in this body! I'm it. It is me! When I close my eyes and start searching for it, I can truly say I feel it like a point in my head, a coordinator which all the sensations report to. And since sensations change when the body moves, it must be that this coordinator is part of the body, or at least it always travels with it. Like a little entity that sits inside the head with all kinds of screens and joysticks around him to see whats happening outside and control the body accordingly.

What does the word I actually point to? If you take a finger (literally) and land it on I, where does it land?
Can you see, smell, hear, taste, touch the I? Try it, with each sense.

I can literally point to it. I point to my head. I cannot see, smell, hear, taste, touch the I, but that doesn't convince me its not there, like I cant see, smell, hear, taste, touch the chips inside an unopened package, but I know it is there inside the package. I can feel it like a real thing.

That's what I really see in this moment. It was hard to write it. All the time I was writing this my mind was telling me: This is not spiritual at all! You are embarrassing yourself! You've read in so many books that have told you the "me" is not existing! Why do you believe it is? You know very well its not there, its a fantom, its the snake in the rope...bla bla.
But the reality of my seeing is I feel "Ivan" is real. I exist and I am contained in my head. All the books and videos and all the numerous trys to see "The Truth" have failed so far.

I'm really grateful for your guiding Vivian! Thank you again and again!
Ivan

Hi Ivan,

Ok, I will put aside all and this time I will really try and start telling you only what I REALLY see, NOT what I believe, NOT what I've learned, NOT what I expect...only what I see in this very moment. As far as I can distinct reality from the story in the head, because its easier said that done. But I promise I'll give my best!

Thank you. This is the way to go :)

I exist and I am contained in my head.

OK. So you say that you are inside the head. So let’s see if this statement stands up to scrutiny.

If you are INSIDE, then you must be able to look around inside. Just when you are inside the room, you can look around inside the room, and also you can open the door or look out the window, so you are able to look around outside the room too.

So just as you were looking around inside a room, look around INSIDE the HEAD.
What do you see inside?

Also, if you are inside you must be able to turn around in 360 degree turn, just as you can do it easily in a room.
When you turn around in a room, you see all sorts of things and objects in the room.

Please try it out.
Go into a room, and turn around and look around. Do it literally.

Then stop, and now turn around INSIDE the head.
How does it FEEL to turn around inside the head?

Can you localize the spot where you are standing inside and you are making the 360 degree turn?

And what do you see as you slowly turn around?
What objects are around you as you turn around IN the head?

Please be careful not to go to imagination, but actually do it.

I can truly say I feel it like a point in my head, a coordinator which all the sensations report to.

You say that you FEEL like a point in the head. So tell me about this FEELING. Not the theorize about this feeling, no speculations, but the pure FEELING of being a point in the head.

How big is this point exactly?
Can a point be FELT?
What is it exactly that is being felt at that location?

And HOW do you know that this point is a coordinator, to which sensations report?
What is giving this information?
Is this information stored in that localized point in the head?
Or is this just a THOUGHT STORY about a central coordinator being a point in the head?
Is this story actually correspond with the immediate experience?

Experiment with these several times before replying.

Vivien