Seeking with playfulness and curiosity

[JonathanR]

Hello Sulochani

Thank you for your reply.

Would you say that it is clear that there is no self?

Love,

Jon

[Sulochani]

Hi Jon
While meditating today, there was sometimes the experience of a witness, sometimes not and sometimes the experience of pain in the body. So who is witnessing? It feels like the witness is different to thoughts because when thoughts are present, then there is the preoccupation with only the thought.

With love

Sulochani

[JonathanR]

Hello Sulochani

. While meditating today, there was sometimes the experience of a witness, sometimes not and sometimes the experience of pain in the body.

Would another way of saying this be that there was sometimes awareness, sometimes not?

Have you ever had the experience of not being aware? If necessary, take a little time to explore this.

. So who is witnessing? It feels like the witness is different to thoughts because when thoughts are present, then there is the preoccupation with only the thought.

I can well see why you say this but where does the, awareness start and stop?

Is it that a witness is aware until thoughts become a preoccupation?

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing?

Is it possible to create a thought?


Love

Jon

[Sulochani]

Dear Jon,
I want to share with you how I am feeling. I met this morning this fear in myself that I can lose this real me. That somehow it is something that can be taken away from me. When I saw this as just a thought, a feeling, it went. I'm so surprised. It's like I've been holding on to this thought for a long time. Then the experience of expansion and expansion wherever I brought my attention and lightness. Lightness in my heart and in every cell of me. And it is still with me!

With love
Sulochani

[JonathanR]

Dear Sulochani

I want to share with you how I am feeling. I met this morning this fear in myself that I can lose this real me. That somehow it is something that can be taken away from me. When I saw this as just a thought, a feeling, it went. I'm so surprised. It's like I've been holding on to this thought for a long time. Then the experience of expansion and expansion wherever I brought my attention and lightness. Lightness in my heart and in every cell of me. And it is still with me!

How beautiful! Lovely. Seeing it as just a thought seems significant?

Please continue to let me know your feelings about this over the next few days, if they stay the same or if there's fear again?

Can you say if it was something I wrote that led to the meeting with fear? If so, what was it?


Love
Jon

[Sulochani]

Dear Jon
Thank you for your responses.

I didn't receive the messages from April 29th or May 1st until today (2 May) for some reason. That explains why I wasn't responding to your invitations. Apologies for that. Let me look at your questions again and get back to you.

Thank you for your care in helping me to explore.

With love
Sulochani

[Sulochani]

Dear Jon
Just going back to the questions you asked:

Would you say that it is clear that there is no self?

Yes, I am sure of it. Experientially not all the time. For example now, as I write to you, I feel like I have to stop and tune in to become aware of that reality. Otherwise I am caught up in the doing of writing the response.
So now I see, I have this thought that when I’m totally ‘in’ doing something, that I am not in my being, which is impossible. It is not possible to be out of my being. Is it that the expression of ‘being’ just changes – sometimes it is flowing and peaceful and quiet and sometimes the expression is in action?

Have you ever had the experience of not being aware?

I feel yes. For example if I’m really involved in doing something, then I am just there eg working in the garden; or dancing; or laughing. There are times when there is a nothingness – just being. Eg Sitting in nature, hearing the birds with no agenda to go anywhere or do anything. And a feeling like I could be there forever. At those times, I don’t feel a witness. I am just there.
My mind remembers a time when I was with someone who was telling me a lot and he asked ‘what is going on with you?’ Then awareness came that nothing was there. I was just there receiving the words. I suddenly became aware of the blankness.

where does the, awareness start and stop?

I don’t know about the awareness. It feels like a barrier to just being. Sometimes there is a feeling of just being lost in this experience – no awareness; and then other times there is this awareness.

Is it that a witness is aware until thoughts become a preoccupation?

Yes

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing?

No, I don't think so, they just come. Even in meditation at times in my life, I tried to prevent the thoughts, but they still came. They just come.

Is it possible to create a thought?

That’s an interesting question! I would have said yes but no, it seems not. If I say I'm going to think about my brother now, then that's a thought but it's not actually thinking about my brother. I can't create a thought about him.

My mind feels confused sometimes with these questions. A thought arises that there are correct answers to be given which I see comes when I go to my mind for answers and not my experience. But my mind feels like it has some responsibility to work out the experience. But the experience is just there- the I can’t stop it- the ‘I’ just stops me being aware of it.
Yes, I see some resistance sometimes. Like I don’t want to answer these questions. I just want to enjoy the experience and this working out gets in the way. It is a thought I see.

This week I had an experience of sorrow rising and passing. It came out of the silence/being and then the next day lots of laughter and joy. When sorrow came, there was a curiosity from the witness – ‘I wonder how long this will last’ and then it just passed into some lightness. Then the next day, came the laughter and a voice said I shouldn’t laugh too long, which I ignored. A realisation that the ‘I’ sees the suffering as more noble than the joy. But both are just fleeting and not real, just like the thoughts. Are they all just expressions of energy that arise from the source and return to the source?

Please continue to let me know your feelings about this over the next few days, if they stay the same or if there's fear again?

I shared with you yesterday about this wonderful experience of expansion and seeing through this fear of the loss of the being. And I had this thought that I had really broken through something. And then I wake up today and I see the self looking/desiring this expansive feeling again. Today, I feel very human. And I know that this is just a thought covering the being and when I acknowledge it, it brings me back to the present and a feeling of more presence. There is a expectation that 'being' is always expansive and mind blowing.

With love
Sulochani

[JonathanR]

Dear Sulochani

Thanks for your detailed answer. I don't know, what happened that you did not see my posts, from 29th and 2nd May. It's, strange. But perhaps it means, that the old cache is still in memory from last time you accessed LU? I often find that I have to open a fresh Web page and start LU forum from scratch as any previous version still open in my browser has not updated. Hope that may help and makes, sense?

. There is a expectation that 'being' is always expansive and mind blowing.

Yes. That's a very very common expectation.

The contradiction in that idea is that for this to be even possible there'd have to be a self (however subtle) that could experience expansiveness.. and that wouldn't be very expansive? . Lol. But perhaps expansiveness is, still possible?

. Today, I feel very human. And I know that this is just a thought covering the being

Covering 'being', or beingness?

This may seem like a strange, question. But take a, look at this by examining the actual experience of anything, seeing, hearing or even meditation. The only thing I'd say not to bother with is thinking this through much, because thought is such a grand illusionist. Explore direct sensations.

In fact can thought 'cover' anything? Or is 'covering' here also an illusion?

Apologies for not addressing all your points but it's often good to focus on just one or two questions. If there's anything nagging, like anxiety or fear, that we are not addressing let me know.

Much love

Jon

[Sulochani]

Dear Jon
Yes, that's what happened. I hadn't refreshed. :)
Thank you for narrowing the focus.

Covering 'being', or beingness?

In fact can thought 'cover' anything? Or is 'covering' here also an illusion?

beingness. there is no entity that is a being. And no, thought can't cover anything. The me is just a collection of thoughts, feelings, all that the I has accumulated this lifetime. It is an illusion.

My experience this morning was an inability to find the self, the Sulochani, the Claire. Just being in the body, eating breakfast in wonder. So beautiful. Then when working, some heaviness came and the thought that this was not being so the judgement came and the struggle that it shouldn't be there. :) The feeling was like this for some time. And then listening to an interview with Ilona, the memory to let it be came and to thank it for its presence. And again now the silence, beingness, thoughts arising and passing. It feels so close and there is a feeling that I have been here before - a feeling that I keep touching it and losing it - but from what others write of their experience, it is impossible to have been there and go back:) I hope this makes sense. Thank you Jon.

With love
Sulochani

[JonathanR]

Hello Sulochani,

. It feels so close and there is a feeling that I have been here before - a feeling that I keep touching it and losing it - but from what others write of their experience, it is impossible to have been there and go back:) I hope this makes sense.

Yes it does.

To 'go there' or 'go back'. Are things that perhaps a body could do, an animal or a car. Could it be that there's, an idea of a 'me' that is imagined to be a real thing like these, that could literally travel from a 'here' , to a 'there' ?

Is there some mistake being made? An idea in thought of a real 'I' that can move from one position in space to another like an object of some sort?

To 'go back' implies an object traveling. What if there has never been any possibility of coming or going (anywhere else)?

What would be doing the going back? There can be an idea ABOUT 'going back'. but is it more than a thought?

Love

Jon

[Sulochani]

Dear Jon

It feels so close and there is a feeling that I have been here before - a feeling that I keep touching it and losing it -

And who is that has been 'here' before? This is just a thought - the thought of an I who is doing something or who has to do something to be in a 'here'. Illusions - when all the time it just is.

With love
Sulochani

[JonathanR]

Hi Sulochani

. And who is that has been 'here' before? This is just a thought - the thought of an I who is doing something or who has to do something to be in a 'here'. Illusions - when all the time it just is.

Lovely :-)

That's a very interesting question. Exactly who, (or better still what) 'does' things?

How do things happen? Is there an entity of some sort that can be found pulling strings and making things happen?


Sending love

Jon

[Sulochani]

Dear Jon
Today a feeling of frustration arose', of running around in circles.. and a wanting to give up, to run away, that the I'' was never going to get this :( The I, the I....

Then I really looked into this Í' and there was nothing, absolutely nothing....a feeling of great relaxation, of presence. Later dancing and just being present. A feeling of not caring about the opinion of others (I don't if not caring is right but more the irrelevance of it) and no effort. Just a happening. Anger rose this evening and when looking for the who behind the anger, again nothing. Just a sensation of heat and tightness in the chest and then dissipating. I don't know if this is the shift, I am going to bed now and I will see in the morning. Just wanted to let you know what is happening.

With love
Sulochani

[Sulochani]

Dear Jon

To 'go there' or 'go back'. Are things that perhaps a body could do, an animal or a car. Could it be that there's, an idea of a 'me' that is imagined to be a real thing like these, that could literally travel from a 'here' , to a 'there' ?
Is there some mistake being made? An idea in thought of a real 'I' that can move from one position in space to another like an object of some sort?
To 'go back' implies an object traveling. What if there has never been any possibility of coming or going (anywhere else)?
What would be doing the going back? There can be an idea ABOUT 'going back'. but is it more than a thought?

Just the illusion of movement. This might be reinforced by my experience of meditation - closing eyes and somehow ‘journeying’ into an inner silence, the place of stillness and peace. So there is still a separation felt – the self here, the beingness there and a bridge that has to be crossed between the two. Yes, just an illusion.

Exactly who, (or better still what) 'does' things? How do things happen? Is there an entity of some sort that can be found pulling strings and making things happen?

No, there is no entity. But how to get from ‘knowing’ this is an illusion to really integrating that.
Who is thinking about this now? Who is trying to work it out? There are thoughts.
What is going on? I don’t know. Just sitting here waiting to see if something will come to make sense of this life, this me. A thought it hurts my head trying to work this all out. I want to escape now but I want to know what is going on, I want to go through that gate and not look back, to know that I have passed and that I will not be going round in these endless circles again.
Am I seeing this only on a mental level, yet there is the experience – what experience – I myself experiencing this lovely soft, peaceful space and the thought that that is the end, this is nirvana – this place. A thought that I just need to work out how to stay there. Again this I - thinking that it has the control, that it needs to do something. The I doesn’t exist. The I doesn’t exist, The I doesn’t exist. The I doesn’t exist. So how can it go to a peaceful place, how can it do anything, it’s not there. It is not there in any form whatsoever. Do I really experience that because if I did then I wouldn’t keep coming back to this ….so much language of movement here. Now a thought to use self not I, hoping that a manipulation of language will help to break through and that is just trying to be clever. A feeling of misery of not wanting to not get this. Am I going to die like this? Going no further. Am I fooling myself that I get close and then something stops that? Again I and the thought that there is something to move to, to get close to, that I need to do something!
Thank you Jon for sticking with this.

With love
Sulochani

[JonathanR]

Dear Sulochani

I am absolutely confident that with a bit of looking, rather than much 'working it out in the head' there will be complete success.

. I want to go through that gate and not look back, to know that I have passed and that I will not be going round in these endless circles again.

First thing is to relax if possible. Maybe a few slow breaths, if that helps? Things will fall into place in their own. You don't have to do much at, all.

Anyway, the gate is definitely within reach.

What can be going round in circles? A spinning top could, a wheel, thoughts.

Who or what could go round in endless, circles?

Love

Jon