The Gate

Hi Eric,

You did a great looking.

B:

Where do thoughts come from?

E: My attention will go to a place - the present, past, future, etc. and it's like the thoughts are already there.

Where is it exactly that the thoughts are already? Look: what do you see? Don't guess.

If I am consciously paying attention to the thought process though then yes I can stop thinking the thought to myself. At least it seems that way though I feel this might be a contrivance.

Please tell me what you see when you LOOK. Can you stop a thought in the middle? Is thinking a thought to yourself really thinking? Or is it just mentally speaking?

In this context, no.

Is there a context in which you can choose to not to have painful or negative thoughts? If yes: which?

I have no idea, I can't find it. Feel like it doesn't exist.

How does "like it doesn't exist" feel? Is it a sensation? Where is that sensation?

As far as thoughts about an "I" are concerned, they are being thought. I am hesitant to say there is a me/I at all right now.

Are there thoughts that are not just being thought? Which ones?

B:

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

E: When I look at where a thought came from it feels like there are no thoughts. But to intentionally stop them... I'm not sure, this is not something I can do now, and the thought "I" seems to come out of habit.

Please try this one again. And don't think: LOOK. Try really hard: can you prevent a thought from appearing?

Bella

Hi Bella,

Thank you.

Where is it exactly that the thoughts are already? Look: what do you see? Don't guess.

The thoughts are in awareness. Actually - I don't see them "in" anything in the conventional sense of it having limits or any describable qualities. I'm aware of them but I can't find a reality to them other than that.

Please tell me what you see when you LOOK. Can you stop a thought in the middle? Is thinking a thought to yourself really thinking? Or is it just mentally speaking?

No, I can't stop a thought in the middle. The other stuff was mental speaking, different than thought.

Is there a context in which you can choose to not to have painful or negative thoughts? If yes: which?

I don't think there is. Doing this again I'm seeing more clearly that the thoughts don't come from anywhere, don't go anywhere, aren't anywhere, aren't anything. Given that, the idea of there being an "I" that controls them doesn't make sense.

How does "like it doesn't exist" feel? Is it a sensation? Where is that sensation?

If I say how this "feels" then I realize I'm identifying with a self to do the feeling. The idea of the thinker not existing is also a sensation or thought, and also within my awareness like any other thought.

Are there thoughts that are not just being thought? Which ones?

Looking again it doesn't feel correct to say they're being thought, because that implies a doer, an origin. They're just there.

can you prevent a thought from appearing?

The answer now is a clear No. There is no origin to thoughts, no destination. There is no I that can do anything to thoughts.

Hi Eric,

Well done.

I don't think there is. Doing this again I'm seeing more clearly that the thoughts don't come from anywhere, don't go anywhere, aren't anywhere, aren't anything. Given that, the idea of there being an "I" that controls them doesn't make sense.

What is it exactly that you do or don’t see/notice? LOOK! Don’t think.

Let’s look a bit deeper into the nature of thoughts.

Thoughts as arising thoughts are ‘real’, but their contents, what they are ABOUT, are not. Like when you think about Batman. There is an arising thought, it cannot be denied, but its content “Batman” is not real. Sometimes thoughts point to something tangible, like chair, however a thought about a chair is not a chair. A thought about a chair is just a mental concept with an arising mental image of a ‘chair’ but that image is not ‘real’. However, as an arising image is there, it is ‘real’ (as an image), but not its content (what it’s about). Can you see this clearly?

Certain sensations can be felt in the body that is labelled such and such emotion, like ‘cheerful’. However, ‘cheerful’ is just a mental label on the felt sensation. So the felt sensation is ‘real’, the arising mental label, simply as arising label is ‘real’, but its content ‘cheerful’ is just an idea. Can you see this clearly?

There is also the SEEMING process of proliferation (mental speech).
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

What can a thought do?
Does a thought have volition?
Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?

And an exercise:
Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?
Speak the word “I” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?
Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?
Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?” Is the thought, "I exist" you?
Is the thought "I" you?
Tell me what you find?

Bella

Hi Bella,

What is it exactly that you do or don’t see/notice? LOOK! Don’t think.

I see thoughts, and I do not see a thinker. I get a feeling like there is a thinker but when I look that is another thought.

Can you see this clearly?

Yes this is crystal clear.

Can you see this clearly?

Yes, no problem seeing this.

Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

At first might have said that at times thoughts had sequence, but now I see that thoughts about thoughts are just thoughts - no different or more substantial than any others.

What can a thought do?
Does a thought have volition?
Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?

A thought itself cannot do anything in the sense that it doesn't create anything, including action. Thoughts do not have volition. Thinking a thought can manipulate other thoughts or make new thoughts is just another thought. I have to say these last few questions had a big impact, I saw something I hadn't seen before.

Tell me what you find?

The written word is not me, the thought "I" and its sensations are not me, the spoken word is not me, together they are not me. "I exist" and "I" are the same as every other thought - just because they are about something doesn't mean that something is real.

Eric

Hi Eric,

Great looking!

I have to say these last few questions had a big impact, I saw something I hadn't seen before.

Thank you for sharing this.

Another exercise.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing? What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Bella

Hi Bella,

Thank you. I have to admit today was a bit stressful and I found it harder to look, some frustration came up around doing the exercise, some desire for it to make sense. I am aware these are thoughts though there is some identification with them :)

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

I can't find anything that is making the choice. It seems like the choice appears in awareness already made, though if I look for the "decider" then I wind up creating one out of thoughts. This feels similar to a previous exercise where I felt like I could stop thinking but it was really stopping talking to myself, but I'm not falling for it this time.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing? What is it that is controlling the hand?

I can't find anything doing the choosing. I don't know what is controlling the hand, I can't see anything doing it.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

I couldn't locate one. As I said above - sensations of a controller appeared but I was aware this was a fabrication and not an actual controller.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

It just seems to happen. Then there is a feeling of "how can I have identified with this my entire life without even knowing what makes it work??? What now?"

How is the decision made?

I have no idea - if I look and don't think it's all automatic. Emotionally I feel baffled by this.

Eric

Hi Eric,

I have to admit today was a bit stressful and I found it harder to look

It is important you take your time to do the looking. Although the looking is serious business, it it also important to have fun. Let me know if you need more time.

sensations of a controller appeared but I was aware this was a fabrication and not an actual controller.

Can you describe these sensations? How is it known this is a fabrication?

It just seems to happen.

Do you mean you can’t find anything that makes the hand move?

Then there is a feeling of "how can I have identified with this my entire life without even knowing what makes it work??? What now?"

Why would you need to change anything? It will still work as it always has. You only saw through the illusion of it. Well done.

Here are two more exercises.
Lie down on a bed. Observe very carefully how the decision arises to get up.
Can a self be found making the body leave the bed?
Where does the decision, the command, to get up come from?
What makes the body get up?
Is there a ‘you’ that commands the body?
When lying there shout “GET UP” internally as loud as you can. Does this affect the outcome?

Repeat this with sitting in a chair.
Describe in detail the decision of standing up.
How does the decision happen exactly?
Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences? Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?
What makes the body stand up?

Bella

Hi Bella,

Thank you. If it's alright with you I'd like to take one more day to complete the exercise below - I have been too busy to focus much today and in addition to wanting to give proper time to the exercises you presented, several comments/questions came up after posting yesterday that I'd like to be able to share clearly.

Talk to you tomorrow!
Eric

Thanks for letting me know. Take your time.

Hi Bella,

Thanks, back at it!

Can you describe these sensations? How is it known this is a fabrication?

It's similar to previous exercises where I could observe myself making a thinker. I know it's a fabrication because I can see it, just like any other thought/sensation, and if I look for it I don't find anything there.

Do you mean you can’t find anything that makes the hand move?

Yes, exactly this.

Can a self be found making the body leave the bed?

No, it just happens, or rather it's like the thoughts about getting up and moving are just there one second when they weren't previously, no self is creating them.

Where does the decision, the command, to get up come from?

I don't know, I just notice it already happening, already formed. I feel like can I really just be going through my life on autopilot?? There is a desire to either figure out how I can see where this is coming from, or find some way to integrate the idea that there is no pilot - but I also would ask myself what is it that would know this?

What makes the body get up?

I can't find any making, when I observe there is just the "doing" always already happening.

Is there a ‘you’ that commands the body?

Not that I can find.

Does this affect the outcome?

This again brought up the fabrication of there being a doer - like there was more tension but fundamentally it didn't change anything I described above.

Describe in detail the decision of standing up.

There are thoughts about standing up, but they are already there. And then there are thoughts like "I should stand up", "time to stand up", but I realize that is me talking to myself. The standing up just happens, I can't find a decision, a moment where I think that I should do that.

How does the decision happen exactly?

It seems automatic, by the time I am able to observe it, it is already happening, and any thoughts are thoughts about it but they are not driving it.

Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences? Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?

Any "self" here would be me talking to myself. I cannot find any doer, "just happen" describes it perfectly.

What makes the body stand up?

If I look beyond thoughts and concepts, I don't know, it just does.

I feel like I will continue to observe this type of movements throughout tomorrow and see what happens.

I feel like I will continue to observe this type of movements throughout tomorrow and see what happens.

That’s alright. I come back to you tomorrow.
If you want to share more in the meantime, please feel free.

Hi Bella,

I had a pretty big realization yesterday regarding what came up in my previous post. I was walking around and I thought about gravity - our bodies, and all other things, obey the law of gravity naturally, it just happens. If someone were to ask me what is deciding that gravity happens, the question would sound absurd. The same goes for the idea of there being a "self" or ego or whatever we want to call it. The conception of a self, and all thoughts and emotions and everything else related are just a process with nobody behind the steering wheel. The confusion comes from identification with this process, causing the feeling of personal cause and effect to arise. But if see I'm not that, there doesn't need to be something in control.

I hope you are well.
Eric

Hi Eric,

I’m well, thank you. Healthy and working from home.

I had a pretty big realization yesterday

That’s great Eric. Well done.

The conception of a self, and all thoughts and emotions and everything else related are just a process with nobody behind the steering wheel. The confusion comes from identification with this process, causing the feeling of personal cause and effect to arise. But if see I'm not that, there doesn't need to be something in control.

Exactly. How is it to realise that?

Bella

Hi Bella,

How is it to realise that?

It's... interesting. My first thought is, is that it? Am I done (with this step)? A lot of questions come up and have been coming up about how things will look going forward - if I have thoughts of a self am I doing this wrong? Am I not allowed to have "I" thoughts anymore? How do I approach this without trying to just being a witness to everything we've worked through? (because the observer is something I'm creating too). And what's funny is I also feel like I know the answer to any question I could possibly ask now - they're all thoughts, not different than any other thought, but I feel I have to say this anyway.

Eric

Hi Eric,

You’re doing fine. Interesting questions are raised. But do they need answers? I remember when I saw through at first I had similar questions.

Seeing through the illusion of a separate self, means only that: the illusion is seen through. Thoughts will still come and go, also thoughts about I and me. Shopping still gets done.

But let’s do a bit of checking.

Without a doer, how does brushing teeth happen?
Without a decider, how do you know which clothes to put on in the morning?

Bella