The Gate

Great job.

Yes I can see how the whole thing requires no effort. Thought is no different from the rest of the senses. There is resistance to the idea it's so simple or how silly the whole thing is, but that's just another thought. There is no hook for it to land onto.

Perfect. That's a very important thing to see. As you mentioned - there is no hook for it - life keeps on living and the thought content continues do describe it in various ways. No resistance, no running away.

Whatever is going to be is going to be. Thought, labels or commentary describe the game but the game will go on.

Amen to that.

It is an isolated stream of thoughts that include "me". The sense of ownership creates a continuous story even though they do not even touch other. There is no continuity in the story of "me".

Can a sense create anything? Or are these only thoughts?

They come and go with no effort, they are created with no effort.

Can you find anything that creates them or are those thoughts spontaneous?

They are not inside of anything. They do not leave any trace when they have gone. However, I tend to view them as central to me and not entirely in the peripheral.

When it comes to thought seeming "location":

Sit down for a moment and notice the thought process. Look around. When a thought appears - try to "localize it".
Using Direct Experience - can you do it?
If somebody told you that your thoughts come from a block away - would that be more real? Can thoughts really be found somewhere? Or can you only sense them?
Remember about Direct Experience.

To go further - we need to look at our seeming "choices".

Drink Exercise
The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really
be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear
example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.
Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are
okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.
Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably
on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.
Experiment - Finding the function of choice
Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel
ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like
about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is
manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing
the ‘choosing’.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or
did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’
these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers
took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down
the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function
or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a
mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am
the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the
‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to
‘choose’?

Is a preference something we "have" or something that arises?

With no chooser - can we pick what we like or dislike?

Enjoy yourself

Thanks, let the fun begin.

Can a sense create anything? Or are these only thoughts?

A sense cannot create anything. These are only thoughts, thoughts of continuity and thoughts of me.

Can you find anything that creates them or are those thoughts spontaneous?

I can find no creator of the thoughts. They come spontaneously and they leave spontaneously

Sit down for a moment and notice the thought process. Look around. When a thought appears - try to "localize it".
Using Direct Experience - can you do it?
If somebody told you that your thoughts come from a block away - would that be more real? Can thoughts really be found somewhere? Or can you only sense them?

Ah, I see. It is impossible to localize thoughts through direct experience. Thoughts are only sensed and not truly found anywhere. Thoughts coming from a block away makes sense since they seem to come from nowhere.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or
did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’
these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

For Drink A I choose coca-cola. For Drink B I choose a glass of water. I did not choose any of the qualities they just appeared by themselves. These preferences manifested without any effort popping up by themselves.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers
took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down
the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function
or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

I felt the numbers come into priority. I choose absolutely nothing, no choice in shutting down preferences and no mental function performing a choosing. I have never seen this function in action. It is like saying I have a choice in what to be aware of. Even while typing this, sometimes I hear the cars, sometimes I hear the fizzing of the cola and sometimes I hear the typing. No choice is being made.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a
mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am
the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the
‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to
‘choose’?]

There was nothing that announced that "I am the chooser." It would be quite shocking and frankly quite amazing if something did. Yes I would describe the sense of choosing as almost a "feeling" or like a label in action. A feeling can not choose at all. A feeling has no saying in choice.

Is a preference something we "have" or something that arises?

A preference is something that arises just like our thoughts.

With no chooser - can we pick what we like or dislike?

No we cannot. Sorry to bring this out of the realm of direct experience (at least I saved it till the end) but that realization is crazy. People are out there getting married to each other based on preferences they have no control of, Schopenhauer is laughing in his grave. Since I choose Cola and Water, I labeled the Cola as unhealthy and unnatural, I labeled the water as healthy and natural. If I had a hard day at work and felt I deserved a reward my come from nowhere preferences could be completely different. Cola becomes tasty and relaxing, and water becomes bland and routine. Most people would never notice the dichotomy between the differences because they assume everything is a result of their will and they manifest preferences and they manifest choosing as all part of a solid character.

Enjoy yourself

Thanks!

Very good observations my friend!

No we cannot. Sorry to bring this out of the realm of direct experience (at least I saved it till the end) but that realization is crazy. People are out there getting married to each other based on preferences they have no control of, Schopenhauer is laughing in his grave. Since I choose Cola and Water, I labeled the Cola as unhealthy and unnatural, I labeled the water as healthy and natural. If I had a hard day at work and felt I deserved a reward my come from nowhere preferences could be completely different. Cola becomes tasty and relaxing, and water becomes bland and routine. Most people would never notice the dichotomy between the differences because they assume everything is a result of their will and they manifest preferences and they manifest choosing as all part of a solid character.

No need to apologize. God forbid we enjoy ourselves :D I chuckled a few times here :D and the Schopenhauer part :D

Imagine if we could really choose. We would spend a minute before any action to weigh its pros and cons. Imagine driving or doing something complicated!

This clip really comes to mind during the choice exercise:

https://vimeo.com/90101368

I hope that now you can clearly SEE the truth behind thoughts and decisions. If you have any doubts - please let me know. We'll explore it some more.

The concept of a "body" is something people strongly identify with. Let's go further into that concept. I have a short and sweet exercise as a starting point.

Let’s examine the solidity of the head.

HEAD EXERCISE

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

As always - Enjoy!

This clip really comes to mind during the choice exercise:

https://vimeo.com/90101368

Wow! Up to six seconds before the he physically pressed the button.

Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

It is a sensation labelled 'pressure' and a story about a head.

Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

Just two sensations labelled 'pressure' and a story about what lies between them.

Very good.

Just two sensations labelled 'pressure' and a story about what lies between them.

Are there two separate sensations in Direct Experience?

Story of a "body" is - for many - synonymous with control and "my action". To look deeper into an idea of a "body" - we must use our Direct Experience to observe if there is any control over "it".

BODY CONTROL

Take a walk somewhere. During it - concentrate on the movements of "your body". As always - only Direct Experience.

Is there somebody doing "the walking"?

Does someone show up and makes a decision to move one leg or another?

When you cough, sneeze, scratch your head - is there a moment before it - when an apparent "decision maker" shows up to deliberate every single move?

Is there anybody initiating breathing, pumping and circulating blood, blinking, digesting, rotating the body, moving fingers etc?

If there is somebody there - can you describe the "starting process"of every bodily action?

When "something shows up" (ie a car, a pedestrian, loud noise etc) - is there somebody choosing and controlling the reaction to these occurrences?

Remember to truly look. It is easy to accept and brush over many of these examples. We can't only see it logically - we must look.

Have fun!

Are there two separate sensations in Direct Experience?

No there is only one sensation in direct experience.

Is there somebody doing "the walking"?

There is nothing doing "the walking"

Does someone show up and makes a decision to move one leg or another?]

No the leg just moves.

When you cough, sneeze, scratch your head - is there a moment before it - when an apparent "decision maker" shows up to deliberate every single move?]

No decision maker to deliberate any single move.

Is there anybody initiating breathing, pumping and circulating blood, blinking, digesting, rotating the body, moving fingers etc?

Nobody is there for that.

If there is somebody there - can you describe the "starting process"of every bodily action?

No there is no one there.

When "something shows up" (ie a car, a pedestrian, loud noise etc) - is there somebody choosing and controlling the reaction to these occurrences?

Absolutely no choice in the matter whatsoever.

Otherwise wouldn't people be able to block out annoying noises? Sort of like the having no negative thoughts question but for hearing.

Thanks again. Hope all is well.

Thanks again. Hope all is well.

No problem - I'm here for you - 'till the end and beyond. I'm having a blast as always - thank you :D

Otherwise wouldn't people be able to block out annoying noises? Sort of like the having no negative thoughts question but for hearing.

Exactly! A "doer" could do such things. Since - as you can see - such an "entity" is not present - nothing can be blocked or turned off or on. Everything just happens.

Let's investigate the idea of a "body" further.

Deeper Body Investigation

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times. As always - only Direct Experience.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?

Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?

Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?

Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

This one should be fun. Enjoy!

Hey!

The trip got the better part of my time since we last spoke. But I am back on the site and about to start going through the exercise. Will take my time with this one as mentioned!

Hey!

I hope you had a great time. Take your time. No worries :)

Hello, here's what I was able to come up with. Thanks for the guiding once again.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?

There is no connection between the felt sensations and the images in the mirror.

Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

However, there are thoughts and mental images that suggest that there is.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

None whatsoever but just the thoughts that suggest there is.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

No connection just the sensation, although my hand is moving up, down, to the left, to the right, the only thing there is the sensation which is separate from the thoughts.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?

The only thing being suggested is that there is a seeing of an image which gets labeled "body". There is no "you" to be found in the "body" being seen but just the seeing of an image. If only finding "yourself" was as easy as patting your chest!

Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?

No, it goes even deeper than the previous question. There is no "body" at all but just color. Which feeds into the next question of.

Or are there only colors and shapes?

The act of seeing is the act of seeing color or imaging so there is only color

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

There can be no "knowledge" of legs, just the thoughts and mental image that suggests so

there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?]

If you were to find yourself in a situation where there were no thoughts and no images of the "body" then you would have no way of recognizing your "body" anywhere. That is until you associate with a sensation or an image. Like "I am looking at my "foot" or "I am feeling my "foot tingling".

Great insights Limazine!

How do you feel so far? What came to the surface?

How do you feel so far? What came to the surface?

Hmm, good question. If you want to know how I felt during the exercise, then not much changed. I had a harder time with looking at the hand and associating it with movement in the mirror. I was basically just waiving my hand up and down, until the thought came to move it forward and back as well to see that the sensation was there but no correlation to movement. The labeling process can be a tough nut to crack.

If how I feel since the start of the writing the first post? That would be shift in perspective for sure. I had the idea that there was no free will but really didn't understood how it worked. What helped was clearing it through the labeling process of direct experience and such. I was under the impression that the fake I had a sensation of a "foot moving" but discovered that it is actually the "I" that had a sensation and labeled it as "foot" and "moving". The preference choice exercise also sealed the deal on free will because for some reason it had not occurred to me how totally automatic preference choices were. The decision was made way before you took a drink from preferences which came from nowhere and the labeling process afterwards. Having the idea that Schopenhauer was right when it came to marriage, that people are basically marrying off preferences that they had no control of. Also the video where pushing the button six seconds after the decision was made was a biggie as well. The whole thing is a closed circuit and there is no way for free will to enter since the circuit is all.

Imagine driving or doing something complicated!

Also the full weight of this only dawned on me later, with the analogy of like a kid on a roller coaster ride, where the cart is shaped like a car. He thinks he has control of the car, where he is going, but there is no doer at all. He is along for the ride yet thinks he is in control.

If I had to describe my current state I would steal such as line as "All is Well". There is no doer in life so I am at the exact only place where I can be physically and mentally. To think differently, compare myself to others, identify with emotions, is to forget that you are on the roller coaster and not in charge. Like a Christmas Light that think it is self-powering or whatever analogy you want to use. If I woke up tomorrow and wanted to go get a high power job and give up all seeking, I would not feel as bad because that's the way the script goes.

Don't even get me on where "I" was before any of this spiritual stuff occurred. Not even a year ago did I have a concept such as "Brahmin is All" floating around in my head. I had some background in philosophy so it amazing how I blatantly ignored so many things that can send one spiraling into seeking.

Something as simple as the first line from the World As Will and Idea "The world is my idea" or the "It then becomes clear and certain to him that what he knows is not a sun and an earth, but only an eye that sees a sun, a hand that feels an earth; that the world which surrounds him is there only as idea, i.e.,only in relation to something else, the consciousness, which is himself". I glanced over these very words numerous times in college without even thinking about the implications, even my teachers didn't bother bringing it up! It's literally on the first page!

And poor old Nietzche! He tried to reach of state of no-self by strengthening the self. I can think of no more painful practice than that. I am absolutely astounded at how the majority of all the philosophers still believed they were the doer or that "things" existed despite prescribing philosophical ideas that were in direct contradiction! It reminds me of a quote from the bible that goes that "Not even a sparrow shall fall on the ground without your Father's consent". Yet the religion itself prescribes that there is a doer to watch out for sin. What an instant and immense recipe for pain.

So in other words, I am grateful that I am here typing these words on those forum and talking to you. That seems to me, a way better route of life than self-flagellating myself through some sort of metaphysical philosophical inquiry or sitting in some Ashram under Sri Sri Sri Sri Sri something or even under Jedvaita where I go skydiving, read Whitman and get a border collie. This mind-being or whatever term you want to use, is grateful that "I am on this path". Even if that pre-supposes that there was path B (which there isn't) and that I even did anything (I didn't). When you have some sort of realization that there is nothing of your own volition then it is hard to feel guilty, feel that anything could be different, or even feel that anything in your mind-body reflects on you. Of course that applies to everyone else, since nobody is doing anything of their own volition as well. And yet gratitude arises, outstanding. I feel incredibly lucky to even be here and have whatever level of understanding I have, hopefully it will continue to deepen, but who knows at the end of the day. More then happy to go further with any exercises as well!

Sorry for the rant! You (sort of) asked, for it though. Hopefully, I didn't make too much of an ass out of myself, but for all I know my imminent death of choking on a Panini is coming up, so I might as well get it out there.

Thank you for your honesty and a long, detailed post my friend. Gradually seeing what is can be very shocking.

I was under the impression that the fake I had a sensation

Fake "I"? Is there another "I" operating somewhere?
Is there a "real I" or "less/more real I" anywhere?

I am grateful that I am here typing these words on those forum and talking to you. That seems to me, a way better route of life than self-flagellating myself through some sort of metaphysical philosophical inquiry or sitting in some Ashram under Sri Sri Sri Sri Sri something or even under Jedvaita where I go skydiving, read Whitman and get a border collie.

People will try to escape the truth by all - available - means. Of course there are no people and what is - is simply "running" from itself. It is my pleasure to guide you :)

I'd like you to notice your feelings now. Describe how you FEEL. What comes up during this conversation?

Fake "I"? Is there another "I" operating somewhere?
Is there a "real I" or "less/more real I" anywhere?

There is no fake "I". There is no other "I" operating anywhere. There is no real "I" so there can be no "less or/more real I".

There can only be what is. Whether term works in this case "the source" or "God" or "life-lifing" or whatever terminology that points to one and only one. The understanding is that it is all conceptual. There was no "fake I" doing anything, just the sensation and the labeling process.

Sorry the terminology often gets mixed up when I write, this is all still new. Using "I" and "me" to refer to the personal when there is nothing personal happens quite a bit.

Of course there are no people and what is - is simply "running" from itself]

Amazing. Layers upon layers. Something like booting up the computer program and using it, instead of just deleting it?

I'd like you to notice your feelings now. Describe how you FEEL. What comes up during this conversation?

What comes up is a sense of relief. Even though there is still an association with something being lucky and something being grateful. It is truly hard to explain or write down. There is something like joy but it feels more like a light breeze from the wind.

Sorry the terminology often gets mixed up when I write, this is all still new. Using "I" and "me" to refer to the personal when there is nothing personal happens quite a bit.

It is understandably confusing. When the realization deepens - you will see more and more paradoxes showing up. No need to apologize.

What comes up is a sense of relief. Even though there is still an association with something being lucky and something being grateful. It is truly hard to explain or write down. There is something like joy but it feels more like a light breeze from the wind.

Great. It sounds like some resistance is being lifted.
When it comes to "being lucky or grateful" - there is nothing wrong with that. It is important though - that we SEE it with DIRECT EXPERIENCE. When we do - we know what is the fundamental truth. All appearances come and go with no one directing it. Life is happening like always but our perspective changes. We are "In the world, but not of it" - as they say in the Good Book. Nobody is fooled anymore - because separation is not believed to be our reality.

Nevertheless - it is imperative to always look for yourself. Plunge into it "head first" and stop theorizing.

...and that is what we're going to do.

To deepen the realization - we will look further into our Direct Experience yet again.

What is Seeing?

Look at whatever is in front of you.

Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?
Can you find a "witness" or a "doer" disguised as "personal consciousness" doing the "seeing"?
Can you find any "operator" behind it all? Is the experience somehow disconnected from the supposed "witness"?

As always - LOOK DIRECTLY. Don't respond with something that "sounds right". If you have any problems with seeing something - let me know. This is not a race. No rush. Breathe, relax and look. Let me know how you feel.

Don't forget to have fun. We are burning an uncomfortable latex cover of fakeness in a big bonfire here.
What's not to love?