New to Liberation unleashed

[Sunyata67]

Hello again Apoorva

Have a look at this video on youtbe.

Mooji pretty much describes the process I would like you to try, better than i can in words typing here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4dgzml ... xv2e_GCDDE

sending blessings

Simon

[jgdapoorva]

Dear Simon,
Thanks a lot for being there. I will look into the questions you have raised and write my observations.

Gratitude,
Apoorva

[jgdapoorva]

Dear Simon,

Here are my answers.

If I say “you are fine now and don’t need protecting” what comes up as a reaction?

Somewhere I feel it’s true. And then there is fear and resistance and it says, “But I cannot let go if this sense of me, this identity. How will I live without it? How will I live in this world without being an I, a separate me? It feels so scary. Too Big. I will have no boundaries. How will I stand up for what I want? How will I get what I want? I will not get anything. I will just be there like a vegetable. I will have no likes and dislikes. Anyone can come and take advantage of me. How will I protect myself from other people? “
An intense sensation in the stomach. Very strong contraction. And there is peace and space. Just awareness, just looking, just relaxation. Just being.
Now tears and crying. I do not want to let go of this me. This identity. Please let me be. Please do not take it away. This is the only thing I have. Throat chokes.

Why do you think you need protecting?

There are tears and these thoughts "Because I feel unsafe in this world. I feel all by myself. No one really loves me or cares for me. Everyone is selfish. They are only thinking of themselves. I cannot really trust anyone. And even if someone loves me so what. They cannot really give me what I want." More tears and crying. "I want relief. Relief from all this struggle, misery. I want freedom. Freedom from this false life. I want to live authentically. I want to live my true self. I want to be who I really am. I do not want to live in this limited way. I do not want to live in fear and insecurity. I want to rest. Rest from all kinds of pretence and lies. I want to live with simplicity, clarity, and honesty. I really want o love and not try to love. I want to love carefree. I want to live in trust. I want to smile from my whole being." As I write these lines, now I feel peace and relief. There is a smile. :)

What exactly needs this protection and what does it need protecting from? What could be harmed?

As I consider these questions, my mind is blank. There are just intense sensations. I do not really know the answers. There are tears and crying. And a smile. I think I know the answers. Somewhere I know that there is nothing that needs protection and that could be harmed. Then why am I so scared and afraid. Is it really true there is no I. Oh my God? Whenever I consider this I become so scared. There are just tears and crying. "Actually I am scared of losing control. I will have no control. Hence, I am so scared of really admitting that there is no separate self. I will have no control left. I will no longer be able to live my life the way I want. I will no longer be able to get what I want. I will no longer have any hope of having things my way. "something within me says that Apoorva, it's enough now. Just really see that there is no self, no you. There are just tears, crying and intense sensations in the stomach. How long will you keep pretending? How long will you keep avoiding and denying? There is just silence now.

Emotions are happening but “who” exactly are they happening to and who feels them?

I can say that they are happening to me. But now, I am not really sure what is this me. Is there really any me, an entity? Actually what I see is that there are emotions and there is just space. The emotions are just happening in empty space and they are being noticed. And then I claim to be this noticer. But now I do not really know what is this I.

Are they felt by a cohesive whole you could call a self or are they localized in certain areas of the body as feelings or are they simply empty thoughts?

The emotions are felt as sensations in certain localized areas of the body. And yes, there are thoughts associated with emotions. Thought about an I/me. Thoughts or I can call it a voice in the head. And it is very familiar. I know this voice.

Can you deconstruct them into components and see which parts are “real” ie experienced by the senses in the present?

There are sensations that are definitely real. Then there are thoughts that are there as a voice in the head. These thoughts are referring to some I/me. And when I see what are this I. I feel I am referring to this awareness, this observer as me. If I ask, who is this I. Then I say... it is me...the one who is asking this question. The one who is watching everything. You know, now I am starting to doubt if I am this observer or not. I do not really know.

If I say to you “you cannot disappear, because what you think you are is just an imagining, and life goes on after Awakening. The Illusion is simply seen for what it is – just an Illusion. Nothing of significance is lost.” what comes up as a reaction?

I do not really know. There is silence. There is some relief. Then a question comes up. "What is this notice then? What is this observer? What is it? Then who is writing this? Who is typing? Is it all happening by itself? I cannot really believe that. How can it be really? Really, there is no one who is doing and managing all this? Then how come all this is happening? How come all this is taking place? How come there is observing and noticing? I am really not willing to believe that there is no one who is noticing, observing and managing all this.

Apple City Santa
These three words describe very different things. Can you tell me what the difference please (hint one of them is real)?

Yes, Apple is a real entity. The word apple refers to something in reality.
The city is not really something. Its a name given by us to a particular geographical location. It is not happening naturally. It is a man-made thing for our own convenience. Its basically a label.
Santa is a fictional character. Its not some relaity. But a fiction, a story. We have created Santa.

[jgdapoorva]

I see it Simon... As I write this, there is a giggle.
Really, tears of gratitude. Sweet tears... So much gratitude for Ilona, for this forum and for You...
Gratitude and Blessings...

[Sunyata67]

My dear Apoorva

I feel you have experienced so much and i hope it was worth it, well done you.
You were right at the gate and just needed a little push past the final barrier.

I still have a couple of questions.

Do you feel reassured that no harm will come? Or are you still scared?

Did listening to Mooji help at all or was it your own efforts with the very clear and fearless looking?

What do you see? Can you try and describe in your own words please?

Simon

[jgdapoorva]

Do you feel reassured that no harm will come or are you still scared?

As I consider your question, there is peace. Thoughts come up and say, "What if I forget this? What if I fall back into the illusion?" But these thoughts are not really generating any emotion. There is some sensation in the stomach. But it is not that intense. As I write this, there is a smile. I know these thoughts are not true. These are just empty and there are tears of gratitude. I do not really know any harm can come or not. But I am not scared of fear anymore. I am not scared of any harm.

Did listening to Mooji help at all or was it your own efforts with the very clear and fearless looking?

Listening to Mooji made me see that I am on the right track. It just seems amusing to say that it was my own effort. I prayed to be seen the illusion. And then I was inspired to go pick up Gateless Gatecrashers again. I had already finished the book once. But this time, I went through each and every word. The foreword, the introduction by Ilona and Elena, it all just made me cry. I could sense that I am at the gate and all I need is a jump. And then I said. I am willing to leave the old behind. I read the first conversation of Philip with Ilona. I took in each and every word. And then Ilona asked Philip to consider that the real possibility that there is no You in real life. It is all happening by itself without a manager. She asked him to answer honestly all that comes up without any hurry and when it feels right. I sat and wrote for one hour and then I could see that there is no real me. So, all I can say is that I was led and yes, all I did was looked thoroughly and fearlessly.

What do you see? Can you try and describe in your own words please

I see that there is really no I seeing. 😅 As I write this, I am really smiling. I see that I is part of narration. Everything is happening automatically. And there is narration going on. The I is a part of this narration. The narration is always referring to this I. But it is nowhere to be found. I can clearly see that there is really no I and there never was and will never be. I was just wondering how come this I was believed in the first place. Who really believed in it, when there is nobody.
Actually, I wrote for one straight hour. Denial, fighting and fear all came up. But I kept asking questions, looking and answering them honestly. I was majorly stuck around concepts of being the observer, the voluntary action, conscious will, intentions and thoughts. It is a long piece of writing. I can share it with you if you are interested in reading it. 🙂
Simon, I would really like to answer more questions. Actually, I am enjoying answering the questions.

P. S. You know Simon, as I am writing this, I clearly see that the writing is happening all by itself. There is really nobody to own it or claim it. I see that that the doer is a construct of language and I will keep using it. 😊

[Sunyata67]

Dear Apoorva

I feel so privileged to have been able to come along with you for this part of your journey. It has been a real pleasure.

Simon, I would really like to answer more questions. Actually, I am enjoying answering the questions.

That is super news, questioning is always a good thing in my opinion.
It is good to explore all views and the way to do this is always question them....

So I am very happy to give you some more questions. These may be my last questions to you.
Once you have answered them I will ask some other guides to have a look at this thread, they may have some more questions.
If not I will let you know and you will be contacted by another member of LU about what happens next.

Here are the questions:-
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was
there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to

Actually, I wrote for one straight hour. Denial, fighting and fear all came up. But I kept asking questions, looking and answering them honestly. I was majorly stuck around concepts of being the observer, the voluntary action, conscious will, intentions and thoughts. It is a long piece of writing. I can share it with you if you are interested in reading it. 🙂

I would like to keep in touch if you would like this?
You can find me on facebook Simon Redfern.
We can message there and I will read what you wrote.

There will be opportunities for further exploration on here in LU after this thread is closed if you would like that.

Namaste
Simon

[jgdapoorva]

Namaste Simon,
It am so grateful to have come in contact with you at the much needed time. Really. I really needed your guidance.
Of course, I would like to keep in touch with you. I will definitely connect with you on Facebook.
It seems the question no 6 is left out. Please see if there is question no. 6.
I would need atleast a day to answer the questions. Hope you do no mind. 🙂

Namaste,
Apoorva

[jgdapoorva]

Namaste Simon,

As I start answering these questions, tears of gratitude arise. I still cannot believe that I have seen through the illusion. It just seems unbelievable. There is a wonder, “Have I really seen through it!!!” Sensations in the stomach. Throat chokes. Teary eyes. A smile on the face. And a bowing down.

1)Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was
there ever?

No, there is no separate entity ‘self’, ‘me’, ‘I’, at all, in any way, shape or form. Yes. There is none. No. There never was any separate self.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Well, I do not know when or how it starts. All I see is that I have lived so many years of my life believing I am a separate individual with likes and dislikes, with a name and form, with certain positive and negative qualities. And I have tried so hard to improve myself, enlighten myself, free and liberate myself. And still, I could never reach my goal and always felt incomplete and lacking.
The illusion of separate self is to believe I really exist as an individual entity and I am the doer, controller, and manager of my life, body, mind, emotions, and energy.
Maybe, it started because everyone around me was existing like this: a separate individual entity. They were taking themselves very seriously and we're thinking about their past and future. They were acting as if they are really in control of their lives. Maybe, I just learned it from them because there was no other way. I was encouraged to behave in a particular way. I was rewarded, loved and appreciated for being in a particular way and punished, rejected for behaving in ‘bad’ ways. I remember I was encouraged by my parents to exercise my choice, my independent will. In fact, I was taught that I have to think for myself, my future and what I wanted to become. I was subtly indicated that I was not enough as I was. I must become something more. So, in order to be included, to belong, to be loved, appreciated and approved of maybe I did what others were doing and suggesting. There was no other way. This was all I knew. And I was scared to really question this all and trust my own knowing.
I see that the illusion of separate self works because of fear. It is fear and in fact fear of really looking into and past the fear that keeps up the illusion. Fear seems so overwhelming and paralyzing.
But now I see that the fear is really a phantom. When really looked into and embraced and experienced fully, it passes away and clarity comes. It is nothing more than intense sensations coupled with a narration.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

Before I started this dialogue, I was seeking. There was some restlessness and a striving to get something, to grasp something. That something was the truth. I intellectually understood that there was no ‘I”, But I clearly was living as a separate individual who was in the process of unfolding the truth. I believed I needed to look and find. At the same time, I was getting tired of seeking and not finding, not realizing. I was getting frustrated.
Now, when I see this, I cannot really believe that it was simple. Definitely it did not seem easy. But it is really simple if one is totally ready to look with honesty. Well, I do not really experience some grand happening, or unending bliss or something extraordinary. Life is going on as usual. Emotions, thoughts, patterns, actions are all coming up and going. Nothing has changed as such. Business as usual. However, there is clear seeing and knowing that there is really no “I”. Whenever the ‘I’ pops us, with or without emotions, it is not taken that seriously. I know that ‘I” is not true. Everything is effortless. There is a clear knowing that everything is all happening and I am not doing anything. Nothing is really in my control. Whenever I remember that I have seen through the illusion, there is just wonder, gratitude, and disbelief. Really, I still cannot believe this. There is just awe. And yes, I notice a feeling to share it with others. The urge to read more and striving to understand more is not there. It at all it comes up, it is noticed and a smile and tears of gratitude well up. :)

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

I cannot really pinpoint it. But I think it’s when I really became honest about my fears and looked into it in conversation with Simon, then the willingness and readiness to really look came. I remember that evening feeling very sad. Then I started writing what I was feeling and then I just prayed to the Divine and my Guru to let me see through the illusion. Then I felt like picking up the book, GATELESS GATECRAHERS, once again. I had already read it fully once. I thought, let me read it now slowly and really answer the questions asked. As I read the introduction and the foreword especially about standing at the Gate and the guide, I cried. I cried a lot. When it asked, are you ready? I took my time. Finished crying and then came the yes, I am ready. Then I went through the first conversation between Ilona and Philip and in the first question, only Ilona asked Philip to really consider the possibility that there is no ‘you’ in real life. Everything is happening, without a manager and write down whatever comes up honestly. I followed the instructions and wrote whatever came up honestly. There was denial, some fear and lots of crying and sobbing. Automatically, I questioned whatever I wrote and I looked and saw that there is really no separate self, no ‘I ‘and it’s just a narration. There were just tears of gratitude and I cried. :) I think it was not really my efforts, but my prayer and surrender which lead me to really looking with honesty and total readiness.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I see that there is no one to make decisions. I am not really making any decision. The decision is already made and is followed. Like right now. I am not deciding what to type. There is just typing happening and words are coming on their own. There is no one to control, dictate and manage this.
The intention is a thought without any more stories or emotions. It’s just a simple thought and it is followed by what we call the voluntary system. Now, I have no idea where the intentions come. They just come out of nowhere and I become aware of them only once they have come. Like, the intention arose to answer these questions. So automatically the necessary actions of opening the laptop and starting typing started happening. Yes, there was space and noticing in between, focussing on whatever intention arose during typing. So an intention arises, the focus goes on it and then the voluntary system simply starts following it. Now, the description in terms of thinking gives the illusion that the so-called voluntary actions are performed by ‘me’. But I see it clearly that this is not the case.
There is no choice, or I can say that choices are already made and then they are followed. There is nobody to make choices. They are just intentions manifesting themselves.
There is no control. While I am writing this, can I really control this activity of typing? I can decide to stop typing. But then again typing starts happening. What happens in the process is that when the intention to stop typing comes, the focus shifts to the voluntary muscles. These muscles get tensed giving the impression that I am stopping the typing. But as soon as the intention is released, typing starts again. Like just right now.  So, control is just an illusion.
Now, I do not know what makes things happen. All I see is that things are just happening, the sense perceptions are appearing and disappearing, the thoughts, emotions, feelings, sensations, intentions, noticing, it is all just happening. Yes, there is a sense of being, presence, a silence that feels very alive. This is what is always there in the background. Or I can say that everything is coming and going in this alive silence only.
On seeing that there is no separate entity, ‘I’, how can I be responsible for anything. There is no ‘me’ to be responsible for anything. I see that taking responsibility is just happening.

"Everything is just one flow", Simon, this is something I am not getting.
I see that it all happening. But one flow???

Love,
Apoorva

[Sunyata67]

Dear Apoorva

Thank you for your answers, we will talk again soon.

Question 6 was my clumsy cut and pasting.

6. Anything to add

Namaste

Simon

[jgdapoorva]

Dear Simon,

Anything to add?

Hmm. Not as such. I have one query. How is everything one flow?
Is it like a river which carries everything. So by one flow are we referring to the flow of life. That it is all flowing effortlessly.

[Sunyata67]

Dear Apoorva

I have been preoccupied last couple of days, apologies i did not get back to you sooner.

I would like us to look into your question:

How is everything one flow?

I dont think it would be the best thing for me to give you an answer based on my experiences and thoughts, lets continue looking together. We can use the same tools as we used before.

What are your expectations around "flow" where did they come from and what are they?

The words are never the thing in reality, just a pointer. Can you see anything in experience that looks like "one flow"? If so how would you describe it using different words?

Have a think about control. What control do you have over what is unfolding in the present in reality? How would reality be experienced by other sentient beings?

I am interested in how you have been last couple of days, how are you at the moment and is anything different from a few days ago?

Sending Blessings

Simon

[jgdapoorva]

Dear Simon,
I am just happy to have a conversation with you...:)

What are your expectations around "flow" where did they come from and what are they?

Actually, I imagine the flow to be a single source for all happenings. I am imagining it to be a conscious intelligent source that is behind all the happenings. I have often heard that everything is just 'One Energy', 'One Consciousness', 'One Life'. I have read Ilona refer to everything happening as 'One Flow'. I am expecting to find the source of creation.

Can you see anything in the experience that looks like "one flow"? If so how would you describe it using different words?

When I look, I find happenings and these happenings seem separate like typing, noticing, breathing, thinking, hearing, seeing. And I sense an Alive Silence, a sense of being. I do not find any "one flow". While speaking, I use words like, "It is all Divine Will", "There is just one life". I have this sense that there is just Alive Silence beneath and beyond everything. I do not know anything for sure beyond this. This "Alive Silence" is what I can refer to as "One Life".

Have a think about control. What control do you have over what is unfolding in the present in reality? How would reality be experienced by other sentient beings?

I see that I Have no control over what is unfolding in the present. I do not know how reality would be experienced by other sentient beings. I am not even sure if there are really other 'independently existing other sentient beings'. Though I like to believe that they exist and I act in that way only. Hmm. I can see that I do not really want to look deeply into this. You know, I sense that there are no other sentient beings. There is no other sentient being just like there is no 'me. There are just happenings and an alive silence. I see that though I act as if there is me and there are others, I never truly believe it now. I know in the background that neither there is'me' nor is there any 'you'. Whatever is supposed to happen will happen. Yes, this is what I see as 'One Flow'. Deep inside I know that there is just 'One Life'.

I am interested in how you have been the last couple of days, how are you at the moment and is anything different from a few days ago?

I see that I am still the same. Business as usual. The only thing is I am no longer taking myself seriously. Even when emotions and thoughts referring to "me' arise, they just arise and leave. Somehow, I see that I can no longer take them seriously. I always know somewhere that there is really no 'I". Everything is just the same. Yes, it is all very effortless. There is no more effort to improve or change myself. I cannot find any seeking. The urge to read stuff related to liberation, to know, to understand and to grasp the truth is no longer there. In spite of all emotions, thoughts, actions, there is peace and relaxation. I always know that there is no 'me'. That's it. Nothing is sticking. It is all effortless. I know that what is, is and what will be will be. I no longer believe that I have control. Also, there is no more need for confirmation and validation. Even if it arises, it is immediately seen and I smile and laugh at it. Life seems like a play. :)
Yes, whenever I am reminded that I have really seen through the illusion, there is gratitude and awe. I still cannot believe that I have seen through the illusion. Whenever I feel like talking to someone about this, I am just left speechless. I feel so much of gratitude that I am unable to speak. It still seems too big for me. There is this urge to share it with others. At the same time, there is this sense that its too big, its too overwhelming. It's too good...and there are sweet tears. But yes, all my habits, my so-called undesirable traits are still there. It is just that I find myself unable to take them seriously. Sometimes, I even wonder at them. I see that this is not like I had expected. Still, there are sweet tears and smiles.

Love and Gratitude,
Apoorva

[Sunyata67]

I see that I am still the same. Business as usual. The only thing is I am no longer taking myself seriously. Even when emotions and thoughts referring to "me' arise, they just arise and leave. Somehow, I see that I can no longer take them seriously. I always know somewhere that there is really no 'I". Everything is just the same. Yes, it is all very effortless. There is no more effort to improve or change myself. I cannot find any seeking. The urge to read stuff related to liberation, to know, to understand and to grasp the truth is no longer there. In spite of all emotions, thoughts, actions, there is peace and relaxation. I always know that there is no 'me'. That's it. Nothing is sticking. It is all effortless. I know that what is, is and what will be will be. I no longer believe that I have control. Also, there is no more need for confirmation and validation. Even if it arises, it is immediately seen and I smile and laugh at it. Life seems like a play. :)
Yes, whenever I am reminded that I have really seen through the illusion, there is gratitude and awe. I still cannot believe that I have seen through the illusion. Whenever I feel like talking to someone about this, I am just left speechless. I feel so much of gratitude that I am unable to speak. It still seems too big for me. There is this urge to share it with others. At the same time, there is this sense that its too big, its too overwhelming. It's too good...and there are sweet tears. But yes, all my habits, my so-called undesirable traits are still there. It is just that I find myself unable to take them seriously. Sometimes, I even wonder at them. I see that this is not like I had expected. Still, there are sweet tears and smiles.

Very happy to hear this. Life is here to be enjoyed and being able to be with what is happening like you are describing is truly a liberation. Yes things still happen just like before, why not. Not what I was expecting either lol. When i had this experience seeking went also. A bit later something else came back but it wasnt the same, more like a childlike curiosity about this new way of being.

[jgdapoorva]

Thanks a lot Simon,

So how do I proceed now? I would really love to be given the opportunity to contribute for LU in any way. 🙂