On the verge of knowing or is it still a belief?

[Luchana]

Hi Mike,

let's try anorher one.

When you wake up in morning sit in your bed for 5 min. Close your eyes and see yourself with your favorite cup of coffee or tea. The glass, the heaviness, the warmth, the taste - bitter or a little bit sweet. Now open your eyes.

What happend to the glass?
Where is it?
What about sensations?
And thoughts about it?

Now make your real coffee or tea. Sit and observe while drinking it.
The heaviness, the warmth, the taste...

What is different?


Much love,

Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana!

What happend to the glass?
Where is it?

It was seen not to exist, the mental image of it disappeared.

What about sensations?

The imagined heaviness/texture of the cup the warmth/taste of the coffee drop away.

And thoughts about it?

The thought of enjoyment of the coffee, particularly the warmth and flavor imagined in the mouth lingered, not disappearing as quickly as the mental image or sensations did.

Found this part of the exercise challenging to isolate the thoughts about the imagined experience ... felt like a disappointment the coffee wasn't real or a delay in registering it was imagined.

Now make your real coffee or tea. Sit and observe while drinking it.
The heaviness, the warmth, the taste...

What is different?

The weight and texture of the cup is much stronger, more tangible. Coffee itself was even warmer than anticipated, more bitter than imagined. Quite different and more unique in actual experience than the imagined.

Much appreciation and love to you,
Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike,

The thought of enjoyment of the coffee, particularly the warmth and flavor imagined in the mouth lingered, not disappearing as quickly as the mental image or sensations did.

You report back how long the imagination lasted, not that it's not real at first place.
I don't ask you to THINK about imagination, rather to SEE it for what it is - pure imagination.

It's essential to see the difference between reality/experience and THOUGHTS ABOUT reality.

We are doing these types of exercises with one reason - they help us learn to distinguish between reality (experience) and imagination (thought).

Now, take e look at this one.

Imagine your front door.
Imagine it as precisely as you can - colour, solidity, matter, size etc.
Sit for couple of minutes with this.

Open your eyes - is there a door here, in front of you? Is there a door in reality?

Then go out and look at the front door.

Are a visual thought of the door and the experience of the door the same?
What is the difference?

Don't think. Just look. What is there?

Much love,

Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana,

Imagine your front door.
Imagine it as precisely as you can - colour, solidity, matter, size etc.
Sit for couple of minutes with this.

Open your eyes - is there a door here, in front of you? Is there a door in reality?

No door in reality.

Then go out and look at the front door.

Are a visual thought of the door and the experience of the door the same?
What is the difference?

Visual thought and actual experience of the door are not at all the same. The door itself has real depth and solidity to it, more fixed dimensions to it. Visual thought is less stable, features not quite the same or where they are on the actual door. Actual door is tangible and real, imagined door is illusory, this is seen clearly.

Many thanks :-)

-Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike.

“Visual thought is less stable, features not quite the same or where they are on the actual door. “

This is a thought about the door.

How would you explane to a 5 years old child wich door is real?

Try please (It must be very, very simple)


After you finish with the above let's focuse on this:

All day when it’s possible simply touch various things - blanket, table, the car seat , the skin of the hand…
In the same time notice the thoughts about the actions, which are happening.



What thoughts say about these sensations?

Do you need a particular thought in order to feel something?

Or sensation is simply happening?

Is the sensation knows the thought about sensation?

Can you clearly distinguish the content of the thought (the story which tells about sensation) and the sensation itself?

What is real and what is not?



Take your time.

Much love,

Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana :)

“Visual thought is less stable, features not quite the same or where they are on the actual door. “
This is a thought about the door.

Yes indeed it was!

How would you explane to a 5 years old child wich door is real?

The real door is the one you can feel, has mass, the one you can knock on :)

I am going to practice the other exercise throughout the day today and get back to you later on that one.

Take care!
Mike

[ramziger]

Ok, back to address the other exercise :)

What thoughts say about these sensations?

nothing the sensations speak for themselves

Do you need a particular thought in order to feel something?

Not at all

Or sensation is simply happening?

sensation is happening

Is the sensation knows the thought about sensation?

sensation has no knowledge of the thought about it

Can you clearly distinguish the content of the thought (the story which tells about sensation) and the sensation itself?

Yes

What is real and what is not?

The sensation is real the thought is not.

Much love,
Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike,

How would you explane to a 5 years old child wich door is real?
The real door is the one you can feel, has mass, the one you can knock on :)

Nice. It is that simple.

nothing the sensations speak for themselves

This comes from thinking, not looking.

Can I ask how much time do you spend during the day looking at the exercise? Do you look at them as many time as you can (50 and more) or you take one look before writing? Your answers are short and confusing. Like you are afraid to give the wrong answers. But there are no wrong answers.
As though you are asking for the direction to the Eiffel Tower and I point, but you dont' tell me where exactly are you.

It is very important to share with 100 % honesty and make the exercises many, many times during the day.
You have to be very thorough. And watch again and again. These exercises are very useful, no matter what thoughts say about them.
Trust the process, Mike. We are together in this.

Now let's try another, which will help you to learn how to observe the thoughts.

First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.
Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
Then wait for the next thought to come.
When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
Then wait for the next thought to come.
Repeat the last two many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.
This is how to look at thoughts - Looking how they come and go, and observing the short gap between them. Noticing how the current thought is passing. And waiting for the next thought to come.
Let me know how you go.

Much love,

Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana :)

nothing the sensations speak for themselves
This comes from thinking, not looking.

Can I ask how much time do you spend during the day looking at the exercise? Do you look at them as many time as you can (50 and more) or you take one look before writing? Your answers are short and confusing. Like you are afraid to give the wrong answers. But there are no wrong answers.
As though you are asking for the direction to the Eiffel Tower and I point, but you dont' tell me where exactly are you.

I do spend quite a bit of time on the exercises but there is room to practice more. Now that you point it out, I believe my answers have been short because I end up overthinking the questions. For example, the response above from the question “what do thoughts say about sensations” – my initial observation is thoughts just label the sensation, but I got into the question to literally (overthinking) and thus the response submitted was given as my minds way of saying the thoughts say nothing about the sensation since the sensation was directly felt. Which, as you pointed out and I am seeing now, was a description of a thought about the experience and not a description of the direct felt observation. Anyhow, I think you are right that I have a worry about giving wrong answers which leads me to think too much before I reply. I’ll work on this in moving forward.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.
This is how to look at thoughts - Looking how they come and go, and observing the short gap between them. Noticing how the current thought is passing. And waiting for the next thought to come.
Let me know how you go.

I practiced this several times throughout the day today and will do more this evening and tomorrow as I often found it difficult to notice the gap between thoughts. There would be silence but almost immediately a thought would rise again, I kept noticing songs would pop in frequently (usually songs I had heard on the way to work this morning) and it was harder when I focused on trying to see the gap compared to just sitting still. When doing it outside a subtle lightness/spaciousness (best I can come up with to describe it) was also more noticeable. I’ll keep at it 😊

-Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike.

my initial observation is thoughts just label the sensation,

That's great. You see - the initial looking is right here in your experience, what follows are thoughts about experience.
So, this initial observation is your best pointer :-)

practiced this several times throughout the day today and will do more this evening and tomorrow as I often found it difficult to notice the gap between thoughts. There would be silence but almost immediately a thought would rise again, I kept noticing songs would pop in frequently (usually songs I had heard on the way to work this morning) and it was harder when I focused on trying to see the gap compared to just sitting still. When doing it outside a subtle lightness/spaciousness (best I can come up with to describe it) was also more noticeable. I’ll keep at it 😊

Yes, you can continue noticing thoughts and the gap between them, but the aim of this exercise is not to develop an ability to make or create gaps between thoughts. The aim to learn to observe thoughts, so then it would be easier to see the distinction between reality/experience and thoughts ABOUT reality/experience.

“and thus the response submitted was given as my minds way of saying the thoughts say nothing about the sensation since the sensation was directly felt.”

Is there a place called " my mind" and it's "way way of saying the thoughts say nothing about the sensation"
Where excatly is mind's location?
Can you point "mind" with your finger?
What is the direct experience of “my mind’s way”?
Can you explain what is mind to a 5 years old child - the way you explain the door?

Take your time and write what you find.

Much love,

Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana,

Yes, you can continue noticing thoughts and the gap between them, but the aim of this exercise is not to develop an ability to make or create gaps between thoughts. The aim to learn to observe thoughts, so then it would be easier to see the distinction between reality/experience and thoughts ABOUT reality/experience.

Ah yes, thank you for that reminder as I was leaning that direction at times yesterday. It is getting easier to see the distinction the more I practice it.

Is there a place called " my mind" and it's "way of saying the thoughts say nothing about the sensation"

No place called my mind. Just a label to whatever it is that appears to assembles thoughts, memories, and ideals together to articulate thinking patterns. I guess its “way of saying” is a communication shortcut for saying this is the output of these thoughts that went thru some conditioned filtering on the subject … I see this is just more thought about the process of mind, getting lost on where/when the conditioning filtering of experience occurs. thought train going off the rails here!

Where excatly is mind's location?
Can you point "mind" with your finger?

I can’t locate it to point to it. The thought about it wants to say in the head but its not a tangible object in reality.

What is the direct experience of “my mind’s way”?

There isn’t any I can sense. Its really just a thought about other thoughts.

Can you explain what is mind to a 5 years old child - the way you explain the door?

This was a bit tougher with mind than it was with the door, but here is what I came up with:
Mind is the imaginary place where thoughts about experience are processed through your past conditioning, where ideals and concepts are dreamed up and beliefs get formed.


Also, I wanted to note that I investigated a bit more into this fear of being wrong and had a bit of a realization. I noticed it has been an underlying theme for the majority of my life and goes back quite a ways. I don’t want to draw any conclusions yet but just seeing it is there now is allowing some hidden beliefs to surface up to be worked through. I had never looked into it before, thank you for pointing it out to me.

Hope you are having a great day! Much appreciation here for you.
-Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike.

Ah yes, thank you for that reminder as I was leaning that direction at times yesterday. It is getting easier to see the distinction the more I practice it.

You're welcome

The thought about it wants to say in the head but its not a tangible object in reality.

Let's investigate this further

Can you see in direct experience without any speculation or imagination that the mind is in the head?
Is there a place in the head where the mind is situated, and produce thoughts?
Can you point the exact place where thoughts are coming? From the ears, from the top of the head? From where? Investigate this.
Go to the tap and let the water run. See how the water flows.
Do you know this or do you see it?
Can you see in the same way thoughts are comming from the head?
Do you say that although there is “no tangible mind”, there might be a non-tangible one? Is this so?


Remember - no guessing, no imagining.
Only reality check.

This was a bit tougher with mind than it was with the door, but here is what I came up with:
Mind is the imaginary place where thoughts about experience are processed through your past conditioning, where ideals and concepts are dreamed up and beliefs get formed.

This is an intellectual reasoning, and not what is actually there in experience. There is a contradiction in your answers - at one point you say that this is imaginay place, but in the next comment you try to make it into an intellectual explanation.

Let me ask you - do you believe that this “imaginary place” exists in reality? Do you see the difference between imaginary and real?

Spend as much time as you can with the questions and write what is true for you.

Much love,

Luchana

[ramziger]

Thanks Luchana!

Lot of stuff to process. I will work on this and look to respond tomorrow as today got busy and carried away.

Much love,
Mike

[Luchana]

Take you time, Mike.

I'm here for you

Much love,

Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana, apologies for the delay in writing back.

Can you see in direct experience without any speculation or imagination that the mind is in the head?

No I cannot. There is a vibration tingle felt in the head but no mind.

Is there a place in the head where the mind is situated, and produce thoughts?

No, not that I can find.

Can you point the exact place where thoughts are coming? From the ears, from the top of the head? From where? Investigate this.

Not from the ears or top of the head. There is not a precise place I can point to they just appear out of nowhere in particular.

Go to the tap and let the water run. See how the water flows.
Do you know this or do you see it?

It is known since it can be seen, the water can be felt flowing past the fingers, wetness occurs and the water is cold.

Can you see in the same way thoughts are comming from the head?

No :) very obvious when you put it like this.

Do you say that although there is “no tangible mind”, there might be a non-tangible one? Is this so?

That had been a previous concept I held, that some sort of processing was occurring where the experience and conditioning mix together and guide our next actions. This ideal is not doing so well anymore when investigated. It was just another thought label trying to tie together theories based on different things I’ve read or heard, nothing I directly knew to be true.

Let me ask you - do you believe that this “imaginary place” exists in reality? Do you see the difference between imaginary and real?

I do not believe it exists in reality anymore. As I mentioned above it was a concept I was holding onto with no basis in direct experience, just intellectual jibber-jabber lol. I do see the difference between imaginary and real and I see it more and more frequently due to these exercises. It does cause for some headaches but is worth it, many thanks Luchana.

-Mike