The Gate

Hi Ron,

But I'm not quite sure if the thought appears before, after or during the action, how is a thought related to an action?

Does it matter? The problem is that you are trying to understand this intellectually.

Here is my confusion: from what I see, action occurs, say I hold my breath, and the thought "I'm going to hold my breath will either proceed it, or may even be an afterthought. So thoughts do not ever trigger action, is that correct?

I could reply to this with more questions. But if I add more questions, then it would just overburden you. We don’t have to solve everything in one swoop.

What about the process of thinking, thoughts come in a stream, one building on top of the previous (that's how it seems to me). Why should that be any different..? That implies that the thoughts come as correlated stream, there is "thinking" and it appears as thoughts. So thoughts are a sense...thoughts are how thinking is sensed.., and there is no thinker. But the perfect correlation between action and though makes it seem so seamless like a cause and an effect.

Cause and effect is a different topic, what we can look at later if you wish, but we cannot jump over to more ‘complicated’ topics, until the basics are not clear.

We are doing this in a step-by-step fashion.

So for now, please don’t try to figure out this. Rather focus on the questions I gave you. All right?

Vivien

I would like to start again, this time answer all your questions and try to do a bit less speculations and more observations, as you instructed me. Apologies for the eagerness, I appreciate your time and effort.

So can you see clearly that the thought “I am going to focus on my senses” is not your doing?

Yes, no thought is ever my doing.

Can you see that the attention goes to the bodily sensations and sounds on its own, without anything or anyone doing it?

Yes, doing, or action is just happening and thoughts just happen, they seem to correlate with each other, and that provides the appearance of cause and effect. I have no control over either doing or thinking and can see no such clear relation between a thought appearing and an action appearing.

Can you see that when ‘trying to relax’ happens, it’s not done by anything?

Yes I see it.

“I can just try to not follow up with more thoughts” – What is this ‘I’ that is trying not to follow up with more thoughts? Is there an I/self outside of the story of me-character?

Indeed, I am not doing anything, that is just what happens, thoughts are "dropped" and there is less thinking than before. The me-character is not required or supported by what is known. It is a sensation perhaps, or a thought.

And this I/self is trying not to follow up with more thoughts?

Ah.. got me again.

"but my mind keeps feeding me” – what is this ‘me’ that the mind keeps feeding?
Is there an I/me outside of thought-narration?

No, it's just an illusion that keeps occuring.

Why do I bother with trying to control anything...
What is this ‘I’ that is bothered with trying to control things?

I can't see if there is a thought which is just very hard to spot, or it's very deep, or maybe persistent - constant that claims that everything is happening to a me - the fictional character housed in this body. It's like a carrier wave that every other thought rides on top of. There is now a thought that says "thoughts cannot be trusted", well, sights can be deceiving too, like a mirage.

Is there really an I being bothered, or there is just a thought story about the me-character being bothered and trying to controlling things?

A thought story, and I realize it intellectually or even empirically, but it's not seen bright enough.

What is this ‘I” that has no control, and it thinks it should let go?
Can you find this ‘I’ trying to let go outside of the thought story of ‘there is nothing I am doing’?

I can't find that "I". All the evidence show that there is nothing that involves an "I".

Hi Ron,

I have no control over either doing or thinking and can see no such clear relation between a thought appearing and an action appearing.

Exactly! And you’ve just answered your question about cause and effect :)

V: "but my mind keeps feeding me” – what is this ‘me’ that the mind keeps feeding?
Is there an I/me outside of thought-narration?

R: No, it's just an illusion that keeps occuring.

Can you see this experientially? Or is this rather an intellectual understanding?

Previously you wrote:

but my mind keeps feeding me with the illusion

Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,
I did not realize the thread has gone to page 2, and posted my second reply without seeing yours (and yet it almost looks like a direct answer!), so I am starting with that:

The problem is that you are trying to understand this intellectually.

That is indeed happening, in spite of my intellectual understanding that what I'm doing here cannot be seen intellectually - through thinking activity, the source of delusion I suppose. Here I go again!

We are doing this in a step-by-step fashion.
So for now, please don’t try to figure out this. Rather focus on the questions I gave you. All right?

Yes, thank you! I understand the value of this, I experience habitual analysis... Can I I just say "I analyze everything" because that is how we use language? We already established there is no I and no self doing.

Can you see this experientially? [R: the illusion] Or is this rather an intellectual understanding?

I'm not seeing the illusion occuring, I only know this out of logical deduction at the moment, so there is doubt unfortunately.

Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?

I'm not sure what I mean by 'mind', or what anyone else means by that word. I suppose what I call 'mind' is:

• thinking that assumes a self
• interpreting and labeling sights.
• interpreting the other senses (sight is just so dominant I put it in separately, but they are essentially all the same)
• emotions and feelings that get wrapped in a story - that are coupled with thoughts.

I guess mind to me is the process of thinking, but if "raw senses" are also mind, than I need to start over.

Can I observe it....?
That is a key question. When in it, it cannot be observed, to observe mind I cannot be in mind.
I suppose I can observe the arising and falling of mind, it's occurs in an instance. It's as if the world appears with mind. I hope I make some sense. I'm so grateful for your questions, even if I get it wrong, I asked many of them before, but gave up when I couldn't come up with anything.

What is it in the very moment you observe it?

At the moment I observe it, there is the absence of mind, there is nothing.

What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

it has none of these qualities, it's the process that takes place interpreting reality into a story.

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced? As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

Sensations, sounds and even thoughts are just known, mind is a tainted experiencing of these pure things.

I hope we meant the same thing when we say 'mind' or this is all wrong.
Thank you!

Hi Ron,

V: "but my mind keeps feeding me” – what is this ‘me’ that the mind keeps feeding?
Is there an I/me outside of thought-narration?

R: No, it's just an illusion that keeps occuring.

V: Can you see this experientially? [R: the illusion] Or is this rather an intellectual understanding?

R: I'm not seeing the illusion occuring, I only know this out of logical deduction at the moment, so there is doubt unfortunately.

I would like to ask you to always report what you can ACTUALLY SEE experientially and not what you understand intellectually. Otherwise, you would give me a false impression that you can actually see something, while you can’t. I write my replies based on your comments, and if you make a statement as above “that it’s just an illusion that keeps occurring” then you are giving me a wrong signal.

So please only write what is 100% true in your experience, all right?

And actually, it doesn’t really matter if you can understand it intellectually or not.
Since intellectual understanding has no value in seeing through the self.

I'm not sure what I mean by 'mind', or what anyone else means by that word. I suppose what I call 'mind' is:
• thinking that assumes a self
• interpreting and labeling sights.
• interpreting the other senses (sight is just so dominant I put it in separately, but they are essentially all the same)
• emotions and feelings that get wrapped in a story - that are coupled with thoughts.

This is an intellectual reply, it’s not coming from looking at experience.

With my questions I NEVER ask your intellectual understanding about a certain thing. Ever.
I always ask about the immediate experience, and not about your concepts/beliefs.

I guess mind to me is the process of thinking, but if "raw senses" are also mind, than I need to start over.

You see, you are guessing.

Guessing = thinking

Thinking is utterly useless with this investigation.
You have to let go of the intellect, and investigate what is here right now, without any conceptual overlay/interpretation.

Can I observe it....?
That is a key question. When in it, it cannot be observed, to observe mind I cannot be in mind.
I suppose I can observe the arising and falling of mind, it's occurs in an instance. It's as if the world appears with mind. I hope I make some sense.

This is a pure intellectual speculation only. It's not about supposing anything. It's about actually seeing (literally) if there is a mind or not.

"As if" - is just a speculation... you can be sure, if you are saying 'as if', or 'seems like' that everything that follows is just a speculation.

V: What is it in the very moment you observe it?

R: At the moment I observe it, there is the absence of mind, there is nothing.

This is the only reply that coming from looking. When you try to observe the assumed mind, it turns out that there is nothing there!

V: What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

R: it has none of these qualities, it's the process that takes place interpreting reality into a story.

This is not looking, this is speculation only.
This speculation is based on the assumption that there is ‘A mind’ somewhere, which interpreting what is happening, by the usage of thought. That thoughts are produced or come from a mind.
And this is an assumption / belief.
What we are doing here is to investigate if this assumption can stand the scrutiny of looking at experience directly.
We are investigating the validity of this belief.
If it still can stand when reality looked at directly.

V: How ‘mind’ as such is experienced? As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

R: Sensations, sounds and even thoughts are just known, mind is a tainted experiencing of these pure things.

You are not looking, you’re just writing down your thoughts.

WHERE is this ‘mind’ you are talking about? Where? Show it to me.

Is there an ACTUAL, REAL mind outside of thoughts speculation?

Please go through my previous questions again, but this time LOOK and SEE what can be actually OBSERVED in experience without any assumption, speculation, imagination or analogy.

Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

Vivien

So please only write what is 100% true in your experience, all right?

Yes, got it. Thank you, such a rooted habit, I didn't even notice I was doing that.

Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?

No, I cannot.

What is it in the very moment you observe it?

When I observe it, there is nothing there.

What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

No shape, color or anything at all.

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

There is only the experience of a sound, a sensation, or the knowing of a thought, I don't experience a mind.

WHERE is this ‘mind’ you are talking about? Where? Show it to me.

I can't show it because I can't find it.

Is there an ACTUAL, REAL mind outside of thoughts speculation?

Nope, and I know it because I looked and it isn't there.

Hi Ron,

Nope, and I know it because I looked and it isn't there.

So is the belief still there that there is such thing as ‘a mind’ where thoughts apper in and come from?

Previously you wrote:

It's as if the world appears with mind.

HOW is this known that the 'world appears with mind'?
Can it be OBSERVED the world appears with mind?

When in it, it cannot be observed, to observe mind I cannot be in mind.

How is it possible to be IN a mind?
What is the experience of being IN a mind?
And what is it exactly that could be IN or OUT of mind?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

R: Nope, and I know it because I looked and it isn't there.

V: So is the belief still there that there is such thing as ‘a mind’ where thoughts appear in and come from?

I went there many more times to say this, there is only thinking and sensations, there is no mind entity, I don't know what that is, hence there is no such belief.

R: It's as if the world appears with mind.

V: HOW is this known that the 'world appears with mind'?
Can it be OBSERVED the world appears with mind?

No, I read too much nonsense and some of these ideas became beliefs that there is a thing called 'mind', and that it's somehow mine. Now 'mind' is just synonymous to 'thought' or 'thinking'. 'What's on your mind?' can mean 'what's the next thought that will come out of this mouth?' and 'penny for your thoughts' is about the right value.

R: When in it, it cannot be observed, to observe mind I cannot be in mind.

How is it possible to be IN a mind?
What is the experience of being IN a mind?
And what is it exactly that could be IN or OUT of mind?

There is no such experience as 'being in mind', there is thinking, there is 'hearing' 'tasting' etc. When none of these take place there is still knowing or "awareing" or being. I don't experience nothing.

Hi Ron,

There is no such experience as 'being in mind',

So, is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from a ‘mind’?

Observe thought closely.
Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?
Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?

In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

Vivien

Hi Vivien

So, is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from a ‘mind’?

I cannot know what does exist experience.

Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?

Not at all

Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?

Yes, I even said that in a past thread - maybe I used "I" then.

In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

I cannot know thoughts that haven't occurred, I cannot claim to be in control of thoughts.

Hi Ron,

V: So, is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from a ‘mind’?

R: I cannot know what does not exist in experience.

This is not a clear answer.

Is there such thing as a ‘mind’ other than a concept or not?

Vivien

Is there such thing as a ‘mind’ other than a concept or not?

No, there is no mind, that’s a concept; only thinking is happening.

Hi Ron,

Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you chose them?
Why do you have them if you have control over thoughts?
If thoughts can be thought or created, why not make it so that only pleasant thoughts are thought?
If you had any control over thoughts, why don’t you just stop choosing unhappy or negative thoughts?
If you were the thinker of thoughts, wouldn’t it be the easiest thing to think whatever you like, and not think what you don’t like?

Please set a timer for 5 minutes. The task is to think EXCLUSIVELY pleasant thoughts for the whole duration. Not a single negative thought, and not even a neutral one. But 100% positive. If you are the thinker/creator of thoughts, this should be the easiest thing to do :)

Let me how it goes.

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you chose them?

I do have unpleasant thoughts, I do not choose them.

Why do you have them if you have control over thoughts?

I don't have control

If thoughts can be thought or created, why not make it so that only pleasant thoughts are thought?

No can do :)

If you had any control over thoughts, why don’t you just stop choosing unhappy or negative thoughts?

I don't have control

If you were the thinker of thoughts, wouldn’t it be the easiest thing to think whatever you like, and not think what you don’t like?

That would be nice, but cause premature death :)

..task is to think EXCLUSIVELY pleasant thoughts

fail

Something happened last night and I'd like to describe it to you as accurately as I can, there will be thoughts and descriptions here that cannot be avoided.

I woke up at around 2am and couldn't fall back asleep (that's common these days). I went out of bed and sat down for a while to meditate. Your questions started to come up. As the thoughts were coming, I realized for the first time not just how not in control I was, but also how impossible that concept is - no mind, there is no thought "cooker". I was getting bombarded by the thoughts and wanted them to stop, and realized that too was just a thought which is not mine, and there is no me. I let go, I observed how I am fed thought after thought, the ones I find meaningful, as well as the pointless, silly useless ones, and it subsided. It was like I was struck hard with a realization that I have nothing to say about what I am given. Then I thought about decision making, and again realized there are no decisions made by me - how would I make a decision if I have no control or knowledge of my thoughts before they appear? That 'ME' character just became a hollow shell that opens it's mouth and words come out, walks and does things without a "mind", without having any control. It was crystal clear and there was no doubt.

For a minute or so I was with the realization of no self, and feelings of sadness came up, a feeling I was losing a friend, but there was no fear or deep regret. Thoughts came reviewing conditioning, from early childhood till today. Here I was the product of everything that contributed to that character I identified as me - physical shape, intellect, behaviour and "character", all set before conception, that child had nothing to do with any of it and never made a single choice. That came in an instant realization despite the accompanied thinking activity before or/and after. Words came out of the character sayin "show me", "I already know I don't exist, it's over, please just show me how it's done". Nothing happened... I was still clinging to the a me thought.

What happened next was acceptance, I realized there was no me to feel sorry for, or feel anything for. With that my eyes opened slowly and I stared around the semi dark room. I looked at things and they looked back at me so to speak, I realized that I was not that body and experienced a brief moment of being nothing, and a brief moment of being everything. I felt a wave of oneness with all humans, and a deep compassion for people going through life with that identification with the false self.

The body got up and went to bed, as I was attempting to fall back asleep I felt an almost physical sensation of my body claiming back that it was the center of my being. I smiled at it and let it claim.

This morning there is bit of a dreamy quality to last night's experience, which makes that awakening softer than I might experience if it was in the midday. I cannot deny what I observed, everything is the same, but not the same, I know there is no self but I don't think I'm done either.

Thanks you so so much! I want to please keep going!
Ron

Hi Ron,

Thank you for sharing your experience. It was beautiful :) But you have to be careful not to attach to this experience and try to replicate it and making into an expectation, wanting it to come back. Rather always look afresh. Everything is always new and ever changing.

Thanks you so so much! I want to please keep going!

You are most welcome :) Now we are going to investigate the illusion of the self in your everyday life, to see it outside of meditation too.

That 'ME' character just became a hollow shell that opens it's mouth and words come out, walks and does things without a "mind", without having any control.

Please open your mouth and say something. And while you do it, investigate:

Does the me-character open its mouth? Or the mouth gets open?
Does the me-character talking, or taking is just happening?

Does the me-character can do anything?
What is the me-character exactly?

Is character here without a story about a character?
Does story about a character make the character into a real entity?
Does story about Pinocchio make Pinocchio into a real boy? :)

What owns the mouth and the body? WHAT and WHERE is the owner?

I cannot deny what I observed, everything is the same, but not the same, I know there is no self but I don't think I'm done either.

What is missing?

Vivien