Requesting assistance

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

And, I notice that when not looking, there's a presumption operating that there is a decider or thinker. It feels like "I" am looking, "I" am writing this.

How is it FELT exactly that “I am looking”, “I am writing”?
Please describe me this FEELING as precisely as you can.

So, thoughts are just happening randomly all the time?

Very good questions. But why don’t you look for yourself? :)

So, is there any thought that is not random and not on autopilot (happening by itself without anything doing it)?

What is this sense of there being a thinker and decider?

Please describe me this SENSE of being a thinker and decider. How is this SENSED? How is this FELT?

Can a thinker be FELT?
Can a decider be FELT?

Now, each time I type "I" or "my" the question is coming up who/what is that referring to? What's noticing all of this?

What if you stop for a moment, and ACTIVELY search through the whole body from head to toe for an I/me that is noticing. Pay particular attention to the head and the chest.

So WHERE is this I, the noticer?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

I've spent a good bit of time with these questions. Below are the answers that arose through the process.

How is it FELT exactly that “I am looking”, “I am writing”?
Please describe me this FEELING as precisely as you can.

The feeling being referenced as “I” is a group of sensations. Predominantly consisting of a slight contraction or tension in the throat and upper chest. There are flickers of emotion-related sensations, and flickers of thoughts, images. The feeling isn’t of “I”, rather, the feeling is as described above, and this constellation seems to be implicitly labeled as “I”. Upon examination, however it’s like a house of mirrors, or a hologram. There’s actually no I, just sensations, all pretending that there’s an I here doing it all. However these are just sensations. The “doer” seems to be happening based on wanting to get something pleasurable and/or wanting to avoid something uncomfortable. This wanting appears to be based on lots of things, but best guess is programming (DNA, survival ex: wanting to live, not to die or be hurt), conditioning (experiences, education, societal norms). Hence this “I” is not a thing that’s deciding, rather it’s a hologram and instead of there being a real “I”, there is actually an organism that’s acting according to its unique programming and conditioning, simply interacting with life and unfolding.

So, is there any thought that is not random and not on autopilot (happening by itself without anything doing it)?

Upon examination, it appears that thoughts are simply happening all the time, both randomly as well as in interaction with both themselves and the world, and influenced also by the conditioning and programming I mention above.

Please describe me this SENSE of being a thinker and decider. How is this SENSED? How is this FELT?
Can a thinker be FELT?
Can a decider be FELT?

No, neither a thinker or decider, as a thing, can be felt, only sensations (physical and emotional), thoughts, and images which have been presumed to be a thinker or decider but upon examination there isn’t a decider. There’s a thought that “I” am deciding, that corresponds to the sensations in the throat and chest area and supported by memories, images and other thoughts, which creates a “me” that thinks it’s deciding. How odd. What are we all doing this for?

What if you stop for a moment, and ACTIVELY search through the whole body from head to toe for an I/me that is noticing. Pay particular attention to the head and the chest.
So WHERE is this I, the noticer?

I had to spend some time with this. At this moment I’m not equating the I with the noticer. There’s no i/me that’s noticing. It seems like there’s a noticing that’s noticing, but not an I or me. When it’s remembered, or seen, that what is believed to be the “I” is this set of sensations and images and memories, etc., then what seems to be noticing is not an “I” but just a quality of noticing. Not a thing but something that notices. Now, as I write this it maybe doesn’t make sense. Please let me know.

Right now, what seems to be seen is that the “I” or “me” is an unexamined set of sensations, images (including memories), conditioning, programming, that’s just unfolding according to trying to get comfort or pleasure and avoid discomfort. And there’s a noticing quality to being alive that is also operating but it’s not very clear beyond that.

Please guide me from here!

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

Hence this “I” is not a thing that’s deciding, rather it’s a hologram and instead of there being a real “I”, there is actually an organism that’s acting according to its unique programming and conditioning, simply interacting with life and unfolding.

Is this clearly seen experientially, or is it rather an intellectual understanding?

No, neither a thinker or decider, as a thing, can be felt, only sensations (physical and emotional), thoughts, and images which have been presumed to be a thinker or decider but upon examination there isn’t a decider. There’s a thought that “I” am deciding, that corresponds to the sensations in the throat and chest area and supported by memories, images and other thoughts, which creates a “me” that thinks it’s deciding. How odd.

So is it clearly seen experientially that there is no thinker or decider?

How does it FEEL to see that there is no thinker or decider?

When it’s remembered, or seen, that what is believed to be the “I” is this set of sensations and images and memories, etc., then what seems to be noticing is not an “I” but just a quality of noticing. Not a thing but something that notices.

“Not a thing but something that is notices” – WHERE is this something? – find its exact location

And WHAT is this something that notices?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Brett,

Hence this “I” is not a thing that’s deciding, rather it’s a hologram and instead of there being a real “I”, there is actually an organism that’s acting according to its unique programming and conditioning, simply interacting with life and unfolding.

Is this clearly seen experientially, or is it rather an intellectual understanding?

I'm not sure. The part you are quoting is more of an interpretation of the raw experience – for example, I used the word hologram as a way of describing what was being seen and experienced through the investigation. No thing can be found, and then when I look at what was taken to be a thing, all that's found is a series of behaviors. Then looking into what drives those, it seems like programming (like DNA-level programming, desire for survival, love, etc.) - and conditioning such as early experiences, social experiences. Is that intellectual or experiential?

No, neither a thinker or decider, as a thing, can be felt, only sensations (physical and emotional), thoughts, and images which have been presumed to be a thinker or decider but upon examination there isn’t a decider. There’s a thought that “I” am deciding, that corresponds to the sensations in the throat and chest area and supported by memories, images and other thoughts, which creates a “me” that thinks it’s deciding. How odd.

So is it clearly seen experientially that there is no thinker or decider?

I believe so. It seems to happen the way I’ve described.

How does it FEEL to see that there is no thinker or decider?

It just seems odd. And an experience that is, so far, difficult to stay with. In the moment it seems to bring up questioning about what is all of this. But then it seems to flicker in and out of a sense of noticing. In other words it forgets and re-supposes an “I”. I would say, at this moment, just that it’s difficult to stay with. How can one stay with this? In trying to put words to something that’s happening, it is as if the seeing invokes a reprogramming that is trying to happen but then it short circuits.

When it’s remembered, or seen, that what is believed to be the “I” is this set of sensations and images and memories, etc., then what seems to be noticing is not an “I” but just a quality of noticing. Not a thing but something that notices.

“Not a thing but something that is notices” – WHERE is this something? – find its exact location

I can’t find a location. It is difficult to describe. Not a thing, not somewhere. More like everywhere and noplace.

And WHAT is this something that notices?

I just don’t know.

Vivien

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

I'm not sure. The part you are quoting is more of an interpretation of the raw experience – for example, I used the word hologram as a way of describing what was being seen and experienced through the investigation. No thing can be found, and then when I look at what was taken to be a thing, all that's found is a series of behaviors. Then looking into what drives those, it seems like programming (like DNA-level programming, desire for survival, love, etc.) - and conditioning such as early experiences, social experiences. Is that intellectual or experiential?

It's intellectual. There might be some experiential seeing, but then you try to figure this out intellectually. You are talking about learned concepts like DNA-level programing, desire, survival, social experiences, etc.

So there might be a few glimpses of looking, but you try to conceptualize it and analyse it on the intellectual level, so it's stays intellectual.

With this conceptualization you cannot get anywhere. You have to shift your focus on the raw experience, ignore what thoughts has to ‘say’ on the matter.

I would say, at this moment, just that it’s difficult to stay with.

Is seeing that there is no decider is a state or a different experience than what is normally happening?
Or it’s a recognition of no-decider regardless of any state/experience? Which one?

How can one stay with this?

WHERE is Brett, who is struggling to stay with it?
WHAT is it that wants to stay with it? Where is the wanter/Brett?

V: “Not a thing but something that is notices” – WHERE is this something? – find its exact location

B: I can’t find a location. It is difficult to describe. Not a thing, not somewhere. More like everywhere and noplace.

V: And WHAT is this something that notices?

B: I just don’t know.

If you cannot find this ‘something’ and you actually don’t know anything about it, then HOW do you know that there is ‘something that notices’ at all? How? Just because thoughts suggest so?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

There might be some experiential seeing, but then you try to figure this out intellectually

This seems correct. The intellect is trying to figure out, or reconfigure understanding, in light of the seeing: if it's not the way it has always been, then how is it. How is all of this happening. Will stay with raw experience.

Is seeing that there is no decider is a state or a different experience than what is normally happening?
Or it’s a recognition of no-decider regardless of any state/experience? Which one?

Looking for, and not finding, a decider is not experienced as a state. It's understood there's no decider in any experience.

WHERE is Brett, who is struggling to stay with it?
WHAT is it that wants to stay with it? Where is the wanter/Brett?

Results of investigation: No Brett is found. Just sensations labeled as "wanting to stay with it".

If you cannot find this ‘something’ and you actually don’t know anything about it, then HOW do you know that there is ‘something that notices’ at all? How? Just because thoughts suggest so?

What I meant to convey is that I don't know what the noticing is. I don't know how to describe it. What's investigating, what's looking? It's not a thing but ... what is looking for Brett, or a decider? How do I know there is something that notices? I don't know how to answer that. Noticing, knowing what's happening, seems to be happening.

Thanks Vivien.

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

I don't know what the noticing is. I don't know how to describe it. What's investigating, what's looking? It's not a thing but ... what is looking for Brett, or a decider? How do I know there is something that notices?

You can know by LOOKING if there is REALLY anything that is doing the noticing, or this noticer only assumed by thoughts.
So look for the noticer.

Is there a noticer or witness outside of what is happening, looking at it?
Is there an experiencer + the experienced?

To see this, listen to the sounds, is there a hearer here and sound there? Or there is only the sound?

In touching, is there a feeler of touch and the sensation of touch? Or there is only one sensation?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

Thank you. This is helpful to look at direct experience.

Is there a noticer or witness outside of what is happening, looking at it?

No.

Is there an experiencer + the experienced?

No.

To see this, listen to the sounds, is there a hearer here and sound there? Or there is only the sound?

No, the hearing and sound are happening simultaneously. There's no hearer; sometimes there are thoughts about the sound, but still no hearer. Just hearing, thoughts.

In touching, is there a feeler of touch and the sensation of touch? Or there is only one sensation?

Same, the sensation is felt, but no feeler is here.

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

So is it clearly SEEN that there is no experiencer, no hearer, and feeler (and not just intellectually)?
Is there any doubt?

Now ...
Could you try pointing at yourself now?
Please do it.
What do you point at?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

So is it clearly SEEN that there is no experiencer, no hearer, and feeler (and not just intellectually)?
Is there any doubt?

Yes, it is clear that there is no experiencer, hearer or feeler. None of these are found. There’s no doubt.

Now ...
Could you try pointing at yourself now?
Please do it.
What do you point at?

Thoughts. Images. Sensations. Sounds.

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

Yes, it is clear that there is no experiencer, hearer or feeler. None of these are found. There’s no doubt.

And how does it FEEL to see this?

V: Could you try pointing at yourself now?
Please do it.
What do you point at?

B: Thoughts. Images. Sensations. Sounds.

Are you saying that when you are pointing at yourself you are pointing at to thoughts, images, sensations, sounds?
Yourself = thoughts, images, sensations, sounds ?

WHERE is the me/self? Where is its exact physical location?

Please tell me a bit about how you perceive things in your everyday life. Is there a me showing up as the thinker, doer, chooser, decider?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

And how does it FEEL to see this?

It doesn't feel different than before this was seen.

Are you saying that when you are pointing at yourself you are pointing at to thoughts, images, sensations, sounds?
Yourself = thoughts, images, sensations, sounds ?

Not quite. I'm saying that there's no self to point to, just thoughts, images, sensations, sounds.

WHERE is the me/self? Where is its exact physical location?

There isn't a me/self, in any physical location

Please tell me a bit about how you perceive things in your everyday life. Is there a me showing up as the thinker, doer, chooser, decider?

Things are perceived mostly the same, except that when looked for, there's no self found. Life (experience) is a bit less personal. Yes, the perception of a me as a thinker, decider, etc. does occur and that can last until looking/seeing happens again.

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

Yes, the perception of a me as a thinker, decider, etc. does occur and that can last until looking/seeing happens again.

Let’s look at the process choosing/deciding a bit closer.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
WHERE is the controller/me?
WHERE is the controller/me?

How is the decision made?
Is there a decision maker/me?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

I'm stumped. A decision is happening, but I don't know how.

Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

No, I can't.

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?

It seems to be happening by itself. Which feels odd.

WHERE is the controller/me?

Nowhere to be found.

How is the decision made?

As much as I'd like to know, I really have no idea how a hand is being chosen.

Is there a decision maker/me?

Not that I'm able to locate.

Vivien, what does this all mean?

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

You did a great looking.

I'm stumped.

That’s good :) it’s just saws that you have had glimpses how things actually are, and not how you believed to be, hence the confusion.

Vivien, what does this all mean?

It means that what you believe how things are, is not how things actually are.
What we are doing here is to investigate if thoughts are in line with experience.
We are discerning reality/experience from fiction/thoughts.

So is there an I/self doing anything?

Is there anything that is not on automatic?

Vivien