The Gate

HI NIc,

It's been a bit crazy with the wedding, family, etc, and tomorrow is essentially a travel day. I am however, doing the exercises and seeing how important it is for noticing the self related thoughts. I'll try to give you full report tomorrow or the next day. i'm also seeing how wanting to "get it' is just more thought layering over what is actually happening. It still feels like there is something driving all this "selfing" and all this unconscious clenching and fear that seems to reassert itself every time I have an opening and there is lots of unnecessary attachment and suffering. Having said that the call for truth is more powerful and there is no turning back!

Can thought experience anything? Is the frustration present in the body, or is it thought?

I would say that thought seems to be an experience itself. Thought is an arising, and therefore can't experience itself or anything else. It can only label, commentate, define, and essentially separate. Actually, thought seems to be what is creating the separation. (Wow, I didn't realize that until I just wrote it and also see that writing is an effective way for insight to arise). That is powerful. Thought plus attention/identification = the appearance of seperation and separate self. House of cards. I dont' see that totally but just got a rush as I wrote this.

Frustration seems to be a 'frustrated thought" together with a sensation of tightness in the chest. So though frustration can't be present in the body, the sensation arising with the identified thought is tightness. Not totally sure about that or if thought or sensation arise together. That's how it looks anyway.

Thanks and to be continued,
Geoff

HI Nic,

Here is part two of your question/exercises.


Can you find the gaps between the thoughts?


What happens, what do you notice in the gaps?
Can you the boundless space of awareness around the thoughts?

Let me know how you go.

This exercise is subtly impactful and I feel like I should do more. I am finding the gaps between the thoughts. As you wrote, sometimes they were short and sometimes they would last for a few seconds. I noticed during that gab, more awareness of the present moment, meaning the sounds, and sensations that were arising. Sometimes there was a sense of quiet or stillness. The thoughts seem to be arising in awareness. I don’t know if I notice that boundless awareness as the thougths arise within them and especially as attention goes onto the content of the thoughts. As I notice awareness now it’s seems like there is no dimension or boundaries. There is an openness. I hear the words, "there is no me, don't be afraid, there never was".

This morning did a little experiment and wrote down every thought as they came up. Here is what arose:

"Why do I have to wear these glasses?
Im tired
Lots of thougts about how I feel
Thought about right way to do this exercise
Thougth about organic intelligence
Did it work? Am I fixable? Maybe there really is something wrong with me?
(meet that thought…)
(Saw that there is so much light and that is just a thought!)
There is nothing..
What is it that is getting afraid?
Should I do this program? Few thougths about this..
This is boring
I have social anxiety
If I don’t see through the self in x amount of time then there is something wrong with me. HA HA HA HA! Just saw the irony of that!!
Worried thougth about how much I”ll be suffering in future. (arising sensation fast)
Joy arising, then contraction"

I was amazed by how many thoughts, (almost all) have an assumed or overt "I" in them. When i first look at this it seems like there an insurmountable challenge here, but then i remember that it's not about getting rid of the I thoughts, rather seeing that they are just "I" thoughts with absolutely no meaning. Just a the product of innocent societal brainwashing from early on. Thoughts of wanting/loning arise to see through this. There is an awareness of these as more assumed "I" thoughts. I continue to look for the "I'.

I't so interesting Nic, I have a full and great outer life, butt everything pales in comparison to this enquiry. I wonder if I"m being ernest and honest enough in it, and if not, how I might be more open.

Best and thanks for all your guidence,
Geoff.

Wow Geoff, I have so enjoyed reading these two posts, there is so much insight arising! I don't feel the need to comment on all of it, as it is mostly so positive and taking you so close to the gate. It seems like it would be very fruitful to simply let this looking deepen and open, looking into that gap, looking into thoughts and the separation and openness which are both possibilities in experience until they are not and there is simply openness! So keep at it, keep looking, and opening. Keep noticing that it is only thought creating separation, and creating I. Also look for the positive aspects to that opening, how does it feel in awareness and experience?


Also, since we are looking at I in thought - try this:

Let’s look at thought and the content of thought a little more,

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

Speak the word “I” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?”

Is the thought, "I exist" you?

Is the thought "I" you?

Hi Nic,

Thank you so much. There are a bunch of arising "not wanting to dissapoint Nic" thougths arising as the past three days feels like three steps back. Lot's of anxious contracting going on an it's almost like the "separate self' is trying to reassert itself or something, but this is a lot of fixation, reflexive resistance to the clench, etc. I can at least see many of the arising thoughts looking for a way to "fix" this. Frustrating as hell as it seemed like it was getting close. It feels like something pretty big has not been seen. Like all this anxiety is something knocking but i don't know how or where to look.

So keep at it, keep looking, and opening. Keep noticing that it is only thought creating separation, and creating I. Also look for the positive aspects to that opening, how does it feel in awareness and experience?

I can see more distantly that thought creates separation. I have experienced moments of openess, speaciousness, stillness over the past days, but it's been quite fleeting. it is quite pleasurable whenever it happens and the sense of presence seems good for not just me but for others as well as I have more to give.

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

Speak the word “I” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?”

Is the thought, "I exist" you?

Is the thought "I" you?

The word, sounds, and thought I are not me in any way. The thought 'I exist" is simply the content of the thought. I can't find the "I". I do question though, what is creating all this contraction and resistance. It's certainly possible that it was just conditioning.

Thanks for your patience with me Nic. I'm sorry if i'm missing something glaringly obvious here.

Best,

Geoff

Hi

Please do not worry about disappointing me, I am not disappointed at all! The pendulating and doubts, and everything that is arising is all part of the process.

Lot's of anxious contracting going on an it's almost like the "separate self' is trying to reassert itself or something, but this is a lot of fixation, reflexive resistance to the clench, etc. I can at least see many of the arising thoughts looking for a way to "fix" this

Perhaps when this happens you could look into it and try and find what is seeking to assert itself. You also mentioned later in your post that there are worries about what is creating this, but perhaps nothing is creating it. It is simply arising, and the questions could be; is it arising in 'me?' Am I creating it - or can I find the one creating it? Is there a senser of the sensations?

Can you look into the clench and resistance and try to see what it is? What is the clinging? I appreciate it isn't easy, and there will be thoughts like 'I don't know,' but if you sit with it you might find where you are clinging or what the blockage is.


We will also do some more exercises to try and address the possible blocks, so don't worry if the answers do not come. We have had a look at thoughts, and perceptions, and done some really good work there, so it feels like a change of tack might be a plan. It feels like time to have a look at the body. This one needs a bit of time and focus, as some of the explorations might need you to be lying down with eyes closed so that you can fully attend to sensation.


Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:


Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Hi Nic,

Thanks for the quick reply. I wrote this on the cross continental flight home so it might be a bit disjointed but I wanted to get back to you sooner than later.

Can you look into the clench and resistance and try to see what it is? What is the clinging

I creating it - or can I find the one creating it? Is there a senser of the sensations?

There are so many thoughts of what “I” need to do to get rid of these emotions I can see how it reinforces the concept of a separate self. Wow. I didn’t see that before. I don’t know what to do about it, but I can see how difficult emotions plus resistance create an “I” fixation. what a trap.

I can't find the one creating it. Does that means it's just conditions that created it? ie- if a person was bit by a dog as a child and now is afraid of dogs, was that fear not created by the dog experience?

I can also see how the "I" thoughts seem to create the illusion of an "I' experiencing the sensations. In DE, i cant find a senser. Just sensing and the experience of the sensation.
It seems like when thoughts arise and are identified with in response to the sensations that’s when suffering gets created and the emotions compounded. Thought seems to be the culprit here, or more presisely- attention/ identification with the thoughts about the sensation. The answer therefore seems to be to cut thought out of the process. What happens when sensations are met in DE by awareness? Thought would have nothing to say about this. As thoughts can only label, interpret, compare? (not sure about this one)

What is the clench?
It’s a sensation that appears to be in the upper stomach/solar plexis or chest area. Like an involuntary tightening of some muscles that I didn’t even know existed. Sometimes it’s more like a burning but mostly it’s a tightening.

What is the resistance? This is tricky because it’s so reflexive/automatic it’s like a fear reaction to this sensation- “This is danger” but I often can’t see what the thought is other than a sense of dread. It’s like this automatic. “No! Not this!” There also seem to be a fixated nature to this automatic fear of the uncomfortable sensation. The fear reaction is actually the issue. Somehow there is also this sense that the fact that this is happening means there is something wrong with me or something. Bottom line the resistance is either an unconscious aversive and fearful reaction to the sensation.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Tall is not a relevant question in de. What is tall? What is a measurement? These are thought based concepts based on comparison. In de is there is only sensation. The sensations actually seem to disappear when attention doesn’t rest on them. (The mind has so much issue with that as what is there to rely on if there if things go in and out of existence- oh shit! :o)

Tall seems almost humorous, and almost like- “I don’t understand the question” like it’s a two-dimensional question for a Three-dimensional world.

Weight- There is pressure. (The mind interprets this as weight- again I get a little confused/scared by this as how would one function in the world without a way to determine these sorts of things). The pressure, like the feeling of the bottom on the chair, without thought is just simply pressure. Some tingling or something.

Volume is like tall or short, in DE how would this question apply to something that is basically a flow of sensations? Shape and form- similar there are no shapes to sensations. Words like “sharp” “tingling” etc seem more appropriate but the sensations are mostly different experiences of pressure. “sharp pressure” “tingling, pressure” “tight”. Etc.


Body and clothing. (I noticed with eyes closed it seems so much easier to experience the DE of this.The body and clothing seem to form the sensation together. One doesn’t end or begin. It’s like there is body/clothing experience and body/air experience, body/body experience. (hands touching) one is warmer or cooler than another.

Is ther inside and outside in direct experience?

This one was really tricky. With the eyes open it certainly seems like there is an inside. I put foot in my mouth, chew, and swallow, it goes into my stomach. Pretty standard. But in DE with the eyes closed it's just more sensation not inside or outside. In DE with seeing you could say that the food disapears under what I see but that doesn't seem sincere. If I put spoiled meet into the body the body will get sick so there does seem to be an inside. I may be a little stuck on this one.


Body refers to the minds concept/image of the body. In other words, how it interprets the body sensation and images to look like. This is why sometimes it’s surpising to see the reflection of the body on the mirror.

The actual experience of the body? Certainly it’s sensations, though the sensations don’t begin and end with what the mind pictures the boundery of the body to be. It's actually a great question. I need to look more at what we call the body as there certainly seems to be a nervous system operating and lot's of consistent sensations like heat when the hand goes near fire. if I was pushed into a corner I would say the body is an experience of sensations. it's almost everything outside of thoughts and what sees in de. hmmm. i think I need some more time with this.
I really love this inquiry Nic and the very process of inquiring has created more lightness and less "clench". I also found a sense of "flow" and during the inquiry. more importantly, the relationship to the clenching seemed to shift. There was less resistance.
Thanks
Geoff

What happens when sensations are met in DE by awareness? Thought would have nothing to say about this. As thoughts can only label, interpret, compare? (not sure about this one)

This sounds like a good thing to look into - what does happen? Try to look at sensation in DE, just let sensations be in awareness. Can you catch the moment thought jumps in? What does it do? Does it have to do it?

You could try this with putting your hand on a surface, and closing your eyes. Can you actually find a boundary between body and surface? Can you identify which of the sensations are hand and which are surface?


I am aware that some of these lookings can create almost a sense of vertigo. I used to call them trippy, since they threaten our paradigms and views and thus seem to spin us out a little. Do you think this is what the fear might be?

With the fear, if you ask yourself the cause, what comes up? It may be a sense of threat to ego, a fear of change, a fear of the crumbling of a paradigm, or even fear of death?
Next time you experience it, really look at it as bare sensation, there is a pressure, or a tingling, or a heat perhaps. What in the direct experience makes it fear, other than a thought? There may be anxiety about the enquiry, which is fine, and it will pass, like everything else right!?

You can do the enquiry above with it, letting the sensations rest in awareness. When you watch them, do they change? Is there anything actually unpleasant or is the unpleasant a label added by thought? Is there anything actually fear-like there? Or is this an interpretation of thought?

It is very interesting to do this with pain as well - sometimes in meditation I have been forced to really look at pain, to find a series of changing sensations which I call pain.

You did write quite a lot more; about the conditioned nature of fear or thought. This is an explanation, and a concept, and quite useful, but here we are looking into DE and seeing that in DE all of these concepts keep us trapped in thought. Once it is really clear what is constructed or added to DE by thought, it will be clear that separation and selfhood are merely constructed or added by thought. In a way, lets not forget to keep it simple. If we start getting into abstract ideas and seeking intellectual explanations we might get lost there!

This one was really tricky. With the eyes open it certainly seems like there is an inside. I put foot in my mouth, chew, and swallow, it goes into my stomach. Pretty standard.

Oh dear, I had hoped this enquiry wouldn't lead to you eating your feet, but if that is standard for you then I guess that is ok!

Sorry, couldn't resist, I know what you mean, and we will look more at this. Its worth reflecting on eating, and trying to find at what point the food becomes mine, at what point it becomes a part of me? At one point it is alive, growing or running around, then it is in packaging, then on plate, then in us for a while, then waste, then fertiliser or fish food...the earth element we borrow for a while, and give back. Is it ever truly ours? We shed cells and skin and hair and waste, all the time. Nothing stays in the body longer than a few short years. It is a marvel that it retains a recognisable appearance!

You can do the same with water. It passes through us, or we borrow it for a while, but it has to return to its cycle. When is it ours? Air, breath, even faster, can you find the point when air is 'mine?' Can you find the point in the breath where it becomes not 'I' any more?

The space we take up? Is there anything about the space we currently rest in that is ours? It is part of the great element of space, the infinite space. When we move, does a new piece of space become ours?


If we really break down our experience of a body in space, it starts to be seen as a flux, a flow of the elements and chemistry and energy. Cells joining and leaving 'body' and sensations arising and passing.

All things can be broken down and seen as empty, like the table the hand is on for that exercise. Once it was a tree, before that it was carbon and oxygen and elements and seeds, going back to beginninglessness. It will become rubbish and then perhaps charcoal and ash and heat warming someone's hands. So we call it table, but it is really a process, a flow. Mind loves to label and fix things, give them solidity and permanence so that we can create a sense of safety and security.

I am sorry if this ended up being a bit of an essay, I do love to write! Since there is fear, it might really help to balance the enquiry with some loving kindness meditation, and focus on beauty, gratitude and positivity! Even though there is emptiness, and it sounds nihilistic, emptiness is really full of potential for freedom, beauty, and another way of being. When emptiness is seen there is freedom from suffering, and beyond the self/other split, there is nothing but love :)

Anyway, emptiness aside, lets keep it simple - try again to look at what is inside and what is outside. Can you find the barrier, the division, in DE?

I really love this inquiry Nic and the very process of inquiring has created more lightness and less "clench". I also found a sense of "flow" and during the inquiry. more importantly, the relationship to the clenching seemed to shift. There was less resistance.

Great, and by the way, that was really good work with the looking. Even if there is a lot of doubt and resistance, on the other side that lightness and flow is so beautiful. If the enquiry gets boggy or heavy, you can always look for this in your experience, the lightness, the open awareness just around the thinking and heaviness! :)

HI Nic,
Just fyi i'm offline tomorrow until late evening. No problem if you don't have time to reply today. (I"m not sure what part of the world you are so this already may be late for you.)

Thanks
Geoff

HI Nic,
Whoops! Please Ignore what I just wrote! I see below that you replied on Wednesday. I"m so sorry. For some reason my email did not alert me.
Apologies!
Chaim

Hi Nic,
Sorry again for the confusion earlier.

This sounds like a good thing to look into - what does happen? Try to look at sensation in DE, just let sensations be in awareness. Can you catch the moment thought jumps in? What does it do? Does it have to do it?

Interesting- when the sensations are met in DE (seemingly without resistance) they are less intense. I need to play with this more as I can see some thoughts but it feels like i'm missing others. the thought comments on the feeling. More than that- it catagorizes it as dangerous or something. Does it have to do that? No, as there are other sensations that thought doesn't do that with. Not sure what to do with this but seems like we are on to something. I can't identify the boundary between hand and surface but I"m not sure how that relates to the above. Sorry. I dont' think i'm following.

I am aware that some of these lookings can create almost a sense of vertigo. I used to call them trippy, since they threaten our paradigms and views and thus seem to spin us out a little. Do you think this is what the fear might be?

With the fear, if you ask yourself the cause, what comes up? It may be a sense of threat to ego, a fear of change, a fear of the crumbling of a paradigm, or even fear of death?
Next time you experience it, really look at it as bare sensation, there is a pressure, or a tingling, or a heat perhaps. What in the direct experience makes it fear, other than a thought? There may be anxiety about the enquiry, which is fine, and it will pass, like everything else right!?

I'm not sure if I shared that about 6 months ago I suddenly had a repressed memory come up from childhood that had been repressed. There seems to be a core, mostly unconscious, thought that says "unless I know I'm wanted it means I"m disgusting or in danger of being cast out." I don't see this thought but I can tell it's there as I get a sense of relief when someone gives me the warm fuzzies. I think there is a fear of being destroyed based on being rejected that is driving all this fear.

When I look at the sensation, it's simply a tightening, pressure, or burning. The sense of dread must be thought. (though I can't see it) This is really frustrating for me Nic as I can't seem to turn off the automatic, reflexive thinking. I can't even see it, I only feel the suffering effects of it. I have been playing with moving towards the sensations in DE, or trying to welcome the sensations and just allow them to be there. Interesting, when I do this the sensations often calm down. I also see that the separate self gets created around the response to these sensations. Lots of "I" thoughts about wanting to get rid of the sensation or fix what is happening. "How do i get out of this?" "Why is this happening to me?" etc. "i'm stuck".

I"m not going to stop looking at this Nic. More than i want to get out of suffering, I want to know Truth.


I love what you wrote about emptiness. Please essay away. So fascinating and points to what lies beneath all experience.

I will look at again at inside outside of the body and report back tomorrow.

Thanks for your patient guidance,
Geoff

Hi Geoff,

Interesting- when the sensations are met in DE (seemingly without resistance) they are less intense. I need to play with this more as I can see some thoughts but it feels like i'm missing others. the thought comments on the feeling. More than that- it catagorizes it as dangerous or something. Does it have to do that? No, as there are other sensations that thought doesn't do that with. Not sure what to do with this but seems like we are on to something.

Nice looking. In a way there is nothing to do with this, it is just helpful to see that sensations do not have to lead to stories. Thoughts may arise, and label them and react to them, but if we learn to be in the gap between stimulus and response - or in this case sensation and thought, there is freedom to be found.

I can't identify the boundary between hand and surface but I"m not sure how that relates to the above. Sorry. I dont' think i'm following.

Yes this exercise is not really about fear, or sensations and labels, it is about the assumption of separation, and looking at inner/outer, self/not-self. In DE, we just feel the sensations of hand and surface, and this, along with some other body investigations should help you to with the enquiry.

When I look at the sensation, it's simply a tightening, pressure, or burning. The sense of dread must be thought. (though I can't see it) This is really frustrating for me Nic as I can't seem to turn off the automatic, reflexive thinking. I can't even see it, I only feel the suffering effects of it. I have been playing with moving towards the sensations in DE, or trying to welcome the sensations and just allow them to be there. Interesting, when I do this the sensations often calm down. I also see that the separate self gets created around the response to these sensations. Lots of "I" thoughts about wanting to get rid of the sensation or fix what is happening. "How do i get out of this?" "Why is this happening to me?" etc. "i'm stuck".

It is good to be aware of these things. Although this is outside the scope of the enquiry offered here, I will just say that it sounds like there may be trauma stuck in the body due to early conditioning as there is for many people. It is good to talk about it with someone, and get to know it as conditioning, but talking or thinking about it does not release it from the body. You could look into TRE - trauma release exercises, or I do shaking and dancing to release energy. It is a paradox, there is no I and yet there is also wounding to heal, and this can arise after the enquiry as well. It is just related to differently, the thoughts and stories which create more suffering do not arise in the same way.
Completing this may or may not change your experience, and if this stuff remains, and continues to cause suffering there are further enquiries you could consider. The movement from sensation to wanting to fix or change it, is craving/aversion. I found that after this enquiry much of it disappeared, since the self is the root of wanting - it kind of relies of separation, a self to want something other than self, if you see what I mean.

What we can work with is the 'I' thoughts in response. It is thought that attaches story to it, and this creates a narrative of self. I will throw these pointers in just in case you find them helpful:

How is it known that the sensations are related to this childhood memory?
Is memory anything other than thought?
Can past or future exist as anything other than thought?
Does the wanting to fix it occur as anything other than thought?


I want to keep it simple, and return to the enquiry, not because this isn't important, but because we are in a process of guiding towards seeing that the separate self doesn't exist. If other stuff comes up, try to set it aside as it may simply be a kind of smokescreen thrown up to prevent the seeing. Mind does funny things! So lets go back to the body:

The actual experience of the body? Certainly it’s sensations, though the sensations don’t begin and end with what the mind pictures the boundery of the body to be. It's actually a great question. I need to look more at what we call the body as there certainly seems to be a nervous system operating and lot's of consistent sensations like heat when the hand goes near fire. if I was pushed into a corner I would say the body is an experience of sensations. it's almost everything outside of thoughts and what sees in de. hmmm. i think I need some more time with this.

Have you tried this again? It seems like you are getting very close to experiencing the body in DE which is great. It is assumed that it has a shape and size, and that it is separate. By looking at sensations, especially in terms of the sensations being located inside it or outside when hand is on surface, or clothing or bedding is on body, it is seen that boundaries and separation is less fixed that we thought.

This is similar but slightly different, and might help:

Please find a quiet place and a quiet time.
Sit or lay down and relax. Close your eyes and relax.

Can you attend to sensation exclusively?
Not minding thought babbling about this and that?
Not minding thought labelling sensation for a bit?

Thought may tell: "I am lying here" or "My body is lying here" or "A body is lying here".
But could this be known from pure sensation?

Thought might suggest: "There is a soft pressure against the back".
But could you know about "pressure" or "back" from pure sensation?

Once arrived there, while ONLY attending to sensation, please have a look at the following questions:

Can be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a specific size, shape or weight?
How many toes are there?

HI Nic,
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, in fact, I would like to take a moment and simply say with all of my heart, Thank You. I look forward to each post what you are doing is so generous.

I appreciate your responses on the what I would agree to be trauma in the body. Sorry if I"m taking us off topic. I"m not exactly sure when our discussion gets a field of the Enquiry offered on this chat so I'll rely on you to keep us on course.

How is it known that the sensations are related to this childhood memory?
Is memory anything other than thought?
Can past or future exist as anything other than thought?
Does the wanting to fix it occur as anything other than thought?

Thanks for these pointers. My assumption is that you want to stick with the DE on the body so I"ll refrain from responding unless I misunderstood this.

Thought may tell: "I am lying here" or "My body is lying here" or "A body is lying here".
But could this be known from pure sensation?

Thought might suggest: "There is a soft pressure against the back".
But could you know about "pressure" or "back" from pure sensation?

Once arrived there, while ONLY attending to sensation, please have a look at the following questions:

Can be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a specific size, shape or weight?
How many toes are there?

I was able to allow thought commentary to kind of die down and just experience the sensation directly. One could not distinguish a "body" simply from sensation. It's a combination of sensations. "pressure', sharpness, etc.. There was also that trippy vertigo feeling you described. It was like floating.

The pressure on the back question is interesting. If i didn't know the word pressure I don't know how I would describe it. There was like a central sensation and this spreading or lightening around it.

However I did have the sense of it being "above" the sensation of "feet on the floor" which in DE and without the word pressure would be that spreading sensation.

There is no tall, there is only sensation. No size, or weight. No toes, hands, or head. Again it was kind of floaty.
I did this throughout the day with my eyes closed. I wasnt' able to do it when others were around but alone I could find myself back in that experience of floating in sensation as it were.

I did notice mind come in on two counts:
1. I had the thought "This is interesting but how could you function in the world from DE?" Implying that thought is more reliable in some areas. I'm glad I noticed this as the thought seemed to undermine trust in the reliability of DE over thought which seems paramount in this process.

2. I did all this without seeing. How does seeing the body in DE impact this?

Thanks,
Geoff

Hi Geoff,

You are welcome, it is a pleasure to do this. Also, it is totally understandable to veer off topic, and I have no issue with it. In some ways the stories and wounds are a part of the self view, so it is still part of the picture. Whilst there may bee trauma and conditioning to heal, we are working to see through that self view, and keeping it simple helps. It is as simple as this: in experience right now, the only place a story, memory, and thus narrative self or any other kind of self, can be found is in thought. In DE, none of this can be found. So all we are doing is looking to see that this selfhood is created and re-created by thought, and it is almost absurd how much this takes us out of presence!

I was able to allow thought commentary to kind of die down and just experience the sensation directly. One could not distinguish a "body" simply from sensation. It's a combination of sensations. "pressure', sharpness, etc.. There was also that trippy vertigo feeling you described. It was like floating.

Yes I remember the same sense of floating! There was a meditation somewhere which suggested imagining that the clusters of sensations were like clusters of stars in the universe, which made it even more floaty and expansive. So the simplicity is that the labels thought gives sometimes do not match the reality in DE.

The pressure on the back question is interesting. If i didn't know the word pressure I don't know how I would describe it. There was like a central sensation and this spreading or lightening around it.

However I did have the sense of it being "above" the sensation of "feet on the floor" which in DE and without the word pressure would be that spreading sensation.

All the words seem inadequate for it, I know what you mean. DE is such an interesting world to explore, like a rabbit hole. Yes so can 'back' be known? We assume it is there, sensations are there, but can it be known in DE?

Even 'above' is a construct but it's fine, we are not undoing all of reality at once, just the selfhood! Emptiness, really seeing emptiness, is to see that all these constructs are not actually real, even time and space. We are exploring the simple fast that this body is known as sensation, and that this sensation does not belong to or point to a self.

1. I had the thought "This is interesting but how could you function in the world from DE?" Implying that thought is more reliable in some areas. I'm glad I noticed this as the thought seemed to undermine trust in the reliability of DE over thought which seems paramount in this process.

There is saying about mountains being mountains before enlightenment, then they are not, then after enlightenment mountains are mountains again. 'You' will function just fine, just without the sense that there is a you functioning. Functioning happens, thought happens, DE arises...so just let thought be thought, it will try to interfere with your explorations of DE until it doesn't.

2. I did all this without seeing. How does seeing the body in DE impact this?

Sight seems to confirm the body being real, and it is as real as things can be. But what we actually see is a little different to what the body is as it is seen by others. I mean, we see a bit of shape and colour we call nose, some blobs of thigh, arms typing...have a look and see what I mean. We can't really see back or head or eyes or anything. We, as you have seen, can know sensations in space. The body is more like that in reality, a flux of energy that is totally connected and in no way separate from what surrounds it. We even know this from physics now, but DE confirms that. The main thing is to see that it isn't owned by 'I.'


Look at whatever is in front of you. It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view?
Pick an object, say, a cup. Can it be known that there is a separate object cup? Can you know it is 3D? Can you know it has a back? Or is there shapes and colours?
Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?


Earlier we were on the subject of the barrier between body and world, the division. Have you looked into this again?

You can try the same exercises around hand on surface or clothes on body, or even skin and air. With eyes closed, can a barrier or shape or division between 'I' and 'not-I' be known?

HI Nic,
Got it. Thank you. Let's focus on seeing through selfhood.

back' be known? We assume it is there, sensations are there, but can it be known in DE?

Back cannot be known as such. It can be known as simply a spreading sensation. I did this multiple times yesterday and experienced some nice trippiness :o).

so just let thought be thought, it will try to interfere with your explorations of DE until it doesn't.

Happy to just let thought be thought. There sure is a lot of it trying to interfere or argue for relying on thought over DE.
At the risk of getting off topic, It's ironic that there is so much protection going on for something that's not even there. crazy.

Look at whatever is in front of you. It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view?
Pick an object, say, a cup. Can it be known that there is a separate object cup? Can you know it is 3D? Can you know it has a back? Or is there shapes and colours?
Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?


Earlier we were on the subject of the barrier between body and world, the division. Have you looked into this again?

You can try the same exercises around hand on surface or clothes on body, or even skin and air. With eyes closed, can a barrier or shape or division between 'I' and 'not-I' be known?

I can absolutely see the windscreen view from the eyes. It's like a cone of seeing expanding from a certain point thought would call the head.

When it comes to the cup I get a little confused. I can't know it in 3d without touching it. But I can touch the back, unless you want to say that touching is just sensation but then again i can wrap my hand around it and lift it, so it seems to have a back and be three dimensional even though I can't know it from sight. Sorry, it feels like i'm throwing thought into this enquiry somehow but i'm not sure how. Based on pure sight there are shapes and colors. I can't find that which is seeing. There is seeing/seen. They can't be separated in DE. All seeing/seen is shapes and colors in DE. You could also say all shapes and colors are part of the same seen. ie- there is black, red, small shape, seems to be on tan long shape, two flesh colored shapes moving, all part of the same seeing/seen. The don't exist separately in the seen as they are part of the same seen experience. The same would apply to sensations. There is not one sensation that exists seperately from the others, they are all part of one happening, a sensation soup. (I so love the discovery aspect of this process!)

When i enquire into the division of body and word, thought kicks up like an angry lawyer in litigation court "Wait, Objection! You can't say that!" I"m grateful to see the resistance here. IN DE the body is not separate from the sensations. You could say all we know of the body is the sensations which includes everything. (chair, air, skin air)

Then I open my eyes and the thought lawyer jumps and tries to argue his case. The answers can't be in thought.
It feels tonight like we are getting a bit closer and there is a fluttering back and forth bewteen the quiet open flow of DE and thought quickly trying to reassert the idea of a self.

Thanks!
Geoff