Discovering Truth

[Vivien]

Hi Dan,

Let me give an example. Someone blinds me and puts my in unfamiliar place and then a sound which I've never heard and can't associate with any image happens. How does this analogy work in this case? The direction of the sound should still be felt but how can I have a mental image of the sound when thinking about it if I can't imagine it?

There is no AE of any location. But we are just the beginning of our investigation and we cannot jump far ahead without seeing through some other beliefs first. We might come back to this later, but seeing this is not really relevant for seeing through the self.

V: No. There is NO AE of ‘mind not being on board’.
The ‘mind not being on board’ simply cannot be experienced.
The ‘mind not being on board’ is just the content of thoughts. And this thought is the AE of thought, but NOT the AE of ‘mind not being on board’.
The sense of self is the AE of a sensation, and not the AE of ‘mind not being on board’.
Can you see these?

D: I understand the distinction but I still think that what I said applies. Let me rephrase. The contents of thoughts still enforce strong sense of self is the AE of what I previously described as 'mind not being on board'.

You either don’t see clearly what I am pointing at, or you can’t see that your above comment is just the content of a thought, and thus this content is taken as reality.

Please read you above comment. It starts with “but still think”. Just because a thought suggest something does it make it so?

The contents of thoughts still enforce strong sense of self is the AE of what I previously described as 'mind not being on board'.

This is just a logical conclusion. It’s not AE. This is exactly what I am pointing at with my previous comment.
Seeing the difference between AE and what thoughts ‘says’ about AE is essential.

Remember actual experience (AE) is: sounds, smells, taste, colour/image, sensation, and seeing the appearance of a thought (the face value of thought). But what the thought about is not AE.

What is the AE of ‘mind not being on board’? Is it a sound, image/color, taste, smell, sensation or thought?

The experience of the water as sight of a bottle of water in a hand is not an actual experience of water either.

Exactly.
Since there is NO AE of water.
The image/colour labelled ‘water’ is NOT the AE of ‘water’, but the AE of image/color only.
The word label ‘water’ is NOT the AE of ‘water’, but the AE of a thought only.
The feeling of wetness is NOT the AE of ‘water’, but the AE of sensation only.
There is NO AE of water. Is this clear?

Everything can only be experienced through senses but sense experience is not the actual thing.

This comment is based on the idea of separation. It’s assumes there is something out there and the body (or something in the body) experiences those things out there through the senses. This is a widely accepted assumption, but this does not correlate with what is really going on. There is no separation. There is no seen + seeing + seer. These are not 3 things. But we will come back to this later.

Vivien

[dan8]

Hi Vivien,

It starts with “but still think”. Just because a thought suggest something does it make it so?

The problem is that anything I will write here is a content of thoughts. Yet through content of thoughts I try to convey the description of AE. So it's way too easy to mix those two and add interpretation to the description of AE. Yes, I agree that the content of thoughts isn't real and doesn't even necessarily describe the reality accurately.

What is the AE of ‘mind not being on board’? Is it a sound, image/color, taste, smell, sensation or thought?

It's a thought. My comment was judging the content.

The image/colour labelled ‘water’ is NOT the AE of ‘water’, but the AE of image/color only.
The word label ‘water’ is NOT the AE of ‘water’, but the AE of a thought only.
The feeling of wetness is NOT the AE of ‘water’, but the AE of sensation only.
There is NO AE of water. Is this clear?

Yes, this is quite clear.

Daniel

[Vivien]

Hi Dan,

Here are some statements based on our investigation so far. Please read them careful, and see if you are clear on them. If any of them are not totally clear, please let me know.

- In actual experience thoughts don’t come and go from anywhere. They just there when they are there. And when they are not there anymore, then they are just simply not there.
- The supposed ‘me’ has no power over thoughts. None.
- Thoughts just appear on their own, without anyone or anything doing it.
- There is nothing that is thinking thoughts. Thinking happens, or rather say thoughts appear but without a thinker. There is no thinker of thoughts.
- Thoughts have no power whatsoever. They cannot think or do anything.
- Thoughts have no volition. There might be thoughts about intentions, but not the thoughts themselves intending or wanting it. They just ‘talk’ about wanting or intending.
- In actual experience there is not even a mind. There might be thoughts about a ‘mind’, but ‘mind’ as such cannot be found.

Look at each statement carefully. Is there anything in the above text that is not totally clear?

Here is an exercise.
Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self, put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, write down the thought itself (not just a mark). If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened, I wonder what is my daughter doing in school (‘my’ daughter), etc.

Let me know how you go and what you notice. Also please share with me what was written under others.
Then investigate the thoughts what was written under others. Are those thoughts really about others?

During the day, try to observe as many thoughts as you can. Particularly try to pay attention to narrating thoughts. Thoughts that are constantly narrating and judging what’s going on from the perspective of ‘me’.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien

[dan8]

Hi Vivien,

Look at each statement carefully. Is there anything in the above text that is not totally clear?

Yes, when I take the time to look these are seen to be true.

Let me know how you go and what you notice. Also please share with me what was written under others.
Then investigate the thoughts what was written under others. Are those thoughts really about others?

I did about 8 minutes of this exercise. There are 16 marks on 'self' side and 5 on the 'other' side. Those on the 'other' side were:
car driving by
are the flowers watered?
cry of a baby outside
something beeping
do the birds need the feeder now in the summer?

The ones on the 'other' side sometimes started as just something happening but then thoughts started that added story to the thing that was observed directly. In the end there was always a thought 'should I note this?' which is a 'self' thought. It's only when what happened was neutral enough, that additional 'self' thoughts did not follow like 'this noise is disturbing me' etc.
The 'self' thoughts were also often accompanied by emotions.

Let me know what you find.

The contents of the narrative thoughts usually have an underlying desire or fear that gives them the force. They are about trying to protect or gain some kind of benefit.
From the AE point of view they are thoughts like any other. They just tend to spin off into a reality of its own where awareness of other senses collapses and they are easily taken to be real and trusted.

Daniel

[Vivien]

Hi Dan,

car driving by
cry of a baby outside
something beeping

Aren’t these things are heard by me?

are the flowers watered?
do the birds need the feeder now in the summer?

I am the one who is concerned about the flowers, since I don’t want them die
I am the one who is concerned about the welfare of the birds

The contents of the narrative thoughts usually have an underlying desire or fear that gives them the force. They are about trying to protect or gain some kind of benefit.

Almost every thought, if not all, is about the self. Sometimes it might not be as obvious, but when looked at it a bit more closely, it turns out that this ‘narrating mind’ is always about me (some way or another).

Actually, these narrating thoughts create the illusion of the self.
These thoughts describes ‘what I am’.
They describe my past, present and future.
They produce a story of my life.
They describe how I feel, and what I have to do.
They describe what things in the world and others mean to me and can give to me.
These thoughts define who I am and what is my relationship to the world.

Please read carefully the above sentences. Look if they are really true. Let me know what you find.

Here is an interesting exercise.
Go and make a cup of tea or coffee. As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of going to the kettle, switching it on, getting the cup (etc) when 'you' control the process?

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?
Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?
Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?
Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?
Can a chooser be located?

Vivien

[dan8]

car driving by
cry of a baby outside
something beeping

Aren’t these things are heard by me?

Yes, the thought I'm hearing that came afterward, but before that there was a thought about the sound without any reference to 'me'. At least I couldn't notice any 'I' in the initial thought about the sound.

are the flowers watered?
do the birds need the feeder now in the summer?

I am the one who is concerned about the flowers, since I don’t want them die
I am the one who is concerned about the welfare of the birds

This was not quite the experience of how those thoughts. The story of 'me' wasn't weaved into it. It's certainly a plausible interpretation but I didn't experience it that way. Something else though that I've noticed was that the train of thoughts often slipped into the narrating mode where 'self' was being referenced.

Please read carefully the above sentences. Look if they are really true. Let me know what you find.

When you say narrating mind, what exactly do you mean? Is it a subset of thoughts, those which create the story of 'me'?

I do find the list of sentences that you gave to be true in experience. I take those sentences to be main examples but there are probably many other ways in which the narrating mind creates the illusion of self.

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?

A thought appeared rationalizing that 'I already had coffee today so tea is better because it's less coffeine'. So the 'decision' was just made, I had no control of it.
Why did I just write 'I had no control of it'? Who could have had any control really? I don't know

Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?

No, this was automatic and not even a thought about it appeared. I had to choose which tea to make because I have like 6 different kinds. There were thoughts like arguments deciding which tea to choose. Then a final thought appeared that this specific one will be chosen because 'it's cheaper and I won't make so many steepings this late in the day'. No moment could be located where 'I chose to decide this way'. Then body actions followed which executed the making of the tea.

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?

No, there was no moment where actual control was executed. Thoughts formed a story of how the decision was made though.

Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?

The body does it, I can sort of just 'lay back and watch it be done' :D. Or better say it's just being watched without any separate watcher watching it.

Can a chooser be located?

No, there's no chooser

[Vivien]

Hi Dan,

V: Actually, these narrating thoughts create the illusion of the self.

D: When you say narrating mind, what exactly do you mean? Is it a subset of thoughts, those which create the story of 'me'?

I didn’t say narrating mind, I said narrating thoughts.
Since there is no such thing as mind. Mind is just a concept, but there is no AE of mind. Is this clear?

I wouldn’t say that the narrating thoughts are a subset of thoughts.
Since there is no categories or hierarchies of thoughts.
Thoughts are just the AE of thoughts.

But if we look at the contents of thoughts, then it turns out that most of the thoughts are ‘talking’ about or referring to a self. So artificially I labelled these self-referencing thoughts as narrating thoughts. Since these thoughts are narrators, constantly commenting, judging, measuring, interpreting what is going on.

The body does it, I can sort of just 'lay back and watch it be done' :D. Or better say it's just being watched without any separate watcher watching it.

Great looking.
Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch very carefully.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?
Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?

When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?

Vivien

[dan8]

Hi Vivien,
I've been busy today. I will do the exercise more tomorrow and will write what I find.

Have a nice day,
Daniel

[Vivien]

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for letting me.

Have a nice day,
Vivien

[dan8]

Hi Vivien,

D: When you say narrating mind, what exactly do you mean? Is it a subset of thoughts, those which create the story of 'me'?

V: I didn’t say narrating mind, I said narrating thoughts.
Since there is no such thing as mind. Mind is just a concept, but there is no AE of mind. Is this clear?

Yes, this is clear. You actually used the term 'narrating mind' as follows. Anyway you cleared up what you meant.

Almost every thought, if not all, is about the self. Sometimes it might not be as obvious, but when looked at it a bit more closely, it turns out that this ‘narrating mind’ is always about me (some way or another).

How is the movement controlled?

No control can be found in AE.

Does a thought control it?

There is a thought at the beginning 'I will now start turning my hand', then the hand starts turning itself. In AE no influence of the thought on the movement can be seen. Both just happen.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No controller. There isn't even any control being executed.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

A thought does appear and the hand starts turning right after but any correlation is a product of thoughts, it's not in AE. Just because there is a thought right before the movement a thought appears that 'I have caused it to turn' but it's just a content of another thought that tries to interpret what happened and link it together.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

No one did. There wasn't even a thought which would describe the decision. The right hand just started turning.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, it seems kind of random. Either it happens or it doesn't at any given moment.

When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?
Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?

No separate identity is doing. We can probably track down the processes which cause the movement and why they happen, but there is nothing and noone making the decision.

When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?

No, nothing specific and separate can be found which causes it.

Daniel

[Vivien]

Hi Daniel,

You actually used the term 'narrating mind' as follows. Anyway you cleared up what you meant.

Thank you for pointing this out for me. I wasn’t aware that I used the word ‘mind’. Although I put into quotation marks, still it’s misleading.

You did a nice looking. Now let’s look at decision making.

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, do according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

Vivien

[dan8]

Hi Vivien,

What is it that is considering these options?

The thoughts about the options do appear but it can't be found where they come from or what created them. The thoughts do talk about an I that wants this or that but that 'I' is just an idea that can't be found.

Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully

No the listing of pros and cons is quite impersonal regardless of the subject used in the content of those thoughts

So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?

I don't know. The conclusion has apparently been made but by who or what I don't know because I can't find it. The thought about the decision just came to being.

Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?

No, there is nothing

How exactly the decision is made?

If there is any process, it can't be perceived. The AE is that it just is decided without any doer making the decision.

What is it that performed the chosen action?

The body performs the action after the decision was made but there is no trace of former leading to the latter.

Daniel

[Vivien]

Hi Daniel,

The AE is that it just is decided without any doer making the decision.

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

Let’s start to investigate the body and sensations. The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating a ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Vivien

[dan8]

Hi Vivien,

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?

In AE I can't find a chooser. I don't think it eradicated all doubt though. Just because the chooser can't be experienced directly does it prove it doesn't exist?

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?

For this question to make sense there would need to be someone exercising the choice or free will. I couldn't find anyone or anything that could in that regard. In AE there is just what is experienced, even the notion of having a 'choice' to make is just a thought. So choice and free will do exist as concepts but their meaning doesn't make sense in AE.

If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

When going about the life it's not always clear and kept in awareness. But when I stop and look it can be seen that the feeling that 'I is making decisions' is an illusion.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No, there can only be thoughts about height.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No, there are only sensations that don't have any intrinsic meaning in themselves.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, the shape is a visual thought that tries to make sense of the sensations. In AE the sensations are just floating in space.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

There is no body, no clothing, no chair, just various kinds of sensations.

Is there an inside or an outside?

There is only boundless space. There is nothing to relate inside and outside toward.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

When I read the word 'body' a visual thought with image of a body comes up. There are thoughts that describe sensations as coming from the body, but that's again a thought. Neither the sensations nor the thoughts are the 'body', the word 'body' doesn't refer to anything real that can be experienced.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

With eyes open and when I look down or in mirror, the sight is an experience of what is called 'body', the sensations are also experiences of the body.

It seems I may be contradicting myself in the last two responses but I'm going to leave it as it is.

Daniel

[Vivien]

Hi Daniel,

In AE I can't find a chooser. I don't think it eradicated all doubt though. Just because the chooser can't be experienced directly does it prove it doesn't exist?

What proofs to do need other than seeing that the chooser is not there?
And what is the proof of the existence of a chooser? Is there any?

For this question to make sense there would need to be someone exercising the choice or free will. I couldn't find anyone or anything that could in that regard. In AE there is just what is experienced, even the notion of having a 'choice' to make is just a thought. So choice and free will do exist as concepts but their meaning doesn't make sense in AE.

So thoughts are ‘talking’ about the chooser, choice or free will, but these concepts/thoughts are not in line with experience.

And also thought will continue to appear saying "but it stills feels like there is a chooser"....so look and see if thought is correct...look and see if you can find this chooser that thought keeps pointing to. Can you?

And although thought will continue to appear saying "but it stills feels like there is a chooser “ - but thoughts don’t know anything. They are talking about all sorts of things without knowing what they are talking about. Can you see this?

When going about the life it's not always clear and kept in awareness. But when I stop and look it can be seen that the feeling that 'I is making decisions' is an illusion.

So every time you LOOK you can see that there is no chooser, right?

In AE the sensations are just floating in space.

How is it known exactly that sensations are floating in space?
What is the AE of space?

V: Is there an inside or an outside?

D: There is only boundless space. There is nothing to relate inside and outside toward.

What is the AE of ‘boundless space’? Is it a sound, image/color, smell, taste, sensation or thought?

V: What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

D: With eyes open and when I look down or in mirror, the sight is an experience of what is called 'body', the sensations are also experiences of the body.

The image/colour in the mirror is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of color only. Can you see this?
The sensation labelled body is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of sensation only. Can you see this?
So what is the AE of body?

Vivien